Why not just leave?

[Verbose]

What I asked in the OP can be summed up in one sentence: is it ethical for a person to continue to benefit from a system which he finds to be evil and abhorrent?

I'm pretty sure someone like Chomsky — already brought up — would answer "No" to that, but that the obligation for those who are citizens in such nations is to try their level best at changeing said nation. It's the pre-defined role of the "independant intellectual", being the purveyor of "harsh truths".

If you just up and leave it means giving up on your nation. Hence it's a cop out. So someone like Chomsky stays, continues to make nuisance of himself in the eyes of the majority because he firmly believes he is right, and that America needs saving. By him.

It's a classic actually: You need to fight your nation in order to save it.

That's how Athenian general Alcibiades justified not only escaping to Sparta, but actively taking part in directing their war against Athens — and that was a good 2400 years ago.

 

[spankey]

That's how Athenian general Alcibiades justified not only escaping to Sparta, but actively taking part in directing their war against Athens — and that was a good 2400 years ago.

That is the point. That Athenian left his "country" that he detested and fought to force its overthrow by a "country" he agreed with. Noam should go to Venezuela or Cuba and direct activities against America from there.

 

[ragged-gothic]

Originally Posted by Bozo Erectus
That is the point. That Athenian left his "country" that he detested and fought to force its overthrow by a "country" he agreed with. Noam should go to Venezuela or Cuba and direct activities against America from there.

...I found your argument, though I disagreed with it, very reasonably put, right up until this post. Then, it transformed into the rather standard, “America: love it or leave it.” diatribe. You seem to immediately assume that Noam Chomsky (or others of his political persuasion) hate America the nation and absolutely everything about it because they strongly disagree with America the stateform (the government, administration, governmental system, etc.) or the social structure as it currently exists. I don’t see any particular evidence that makes this premise sound. Also, you seem to discount the whole notion of remaining within a country (geographically defined political unit) because you believe ultimately in the nation (the concept of the country as a people and a society) while they disagree with the state or economic system and want to effect change in that. This actually says to me that the people so discribed, far from hating their nation, actually care passionately for it and want to make it (by their definition) a better place.

...As to the individuals cited in earlier posts, the Cuban in the USA or the Muslim (national origin unrecorded) in Sweden, I have trouble justifying their positions, because they do seem to be a categoric dismissal of the society that they have joined, without any converse attempt to change it. However, I should add the codicil to that statement that it is much more difficult for a person who has come as an immigrant/refugee to become socially active and involved in constructive criticism and social change than it is for an established intellectual person-of-letters or a successful entertainer. They just don’t have the power within their adoptive society; they also leave themselves even more open to attack on the very grounds we are discussing (namely: “why don’t you just leave?”).

...From the posts, I cannot tell on face value the actual position of the Cuban-American or the Muslim-Swede. It could be, frex, that the Muslim is simply an economic mercenary who has every intention of leaving because he does hate the whole nation and its values. If this is the case, and he has not sought citizenship, but merely work rights, as well as not attempting to change Sweden at all, I cannot see where there is an ethical disjunct. In the case I outline, he is simply doing business with clients or in a milieu that he dislikes because the business is there. That is classic capitalist theory, btw, the market as totally divorced from the socio-political milieu around it. The Cuban, on the other hand, seems to have no desire to leave the society and economic system he profits by. My question, on that example, is when he criticizes the USA, is he actually criticizing the nation, or is it the state that he is critical of? Or the economic system of the state? If the later, I would accept the premise that he is at least hypocritical, because his lifestyle (and all first world lifestyles) is dependent on an unequal consumption of the world¹s resources which the world economic system fosters and maintains. (And yes, I live in a first world country and benefit from that inequality. I am also too attached to the comparitive luxury of my own country to pack it all up and move to a one room hut in an extremely poor, underdeveloped country. In that, I admit to being a hypocrit myself. However, I do, at least, acknowledge the basic gross unfairness of the situation, and I do believe that it is encumbent upon people like me to at least point out the problem [constructive criticism] and work in what ways we can to improve, not only our own nation-states, but the world in general.)

...Sorry all for the longwinded response. I shall try to be more pithy in future.

— ragged-gothic​

 

[Verbose]

That is the point. That Athenian left his "country" that he detested and fought to force its overthrow by a "country" he agreed with. Noam should go to Venezuela or Cuba and direct activities against America from there.

Why? Seems a bit superflous. Why go somewhere else to ty to change the US if you can stay in the US and make the attempt? It probabaly works better if you stay too. And Alcibiades argued that he was trying to save Athens by defeating it, figthing "for" Athens by fighting "against" it. (His contemporaries weren't all convinced by this.) He wasn't exchangeing Athens for Sparta.

There are numerous exile communites of intellectuals around the world trying to drum up opposition to the local govt. that has made their remaining in the country impossible.
Why should Chomsky go into voluntary exile if the US govt. doesn't force him to do so? To save them the trouble? Why should he? If they want to get rid of him, they exile him. (Which they don't and won't do, thankfully.) Or whatever segment of the US public that thinks it's worth the trouble might try this, vigilante style. (Though Chomsky prolly already has police protection.)

And the position of Alcibiades in the historical example was that when absconding he would otherwise have been put on trial. And after doing the runner he would have been immediately put to death on his return to Athens. Chomsky isn't quite there yet.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Verbose, Im talking about people who do nothing to 'change their nation' other than badmouthing it at every opportunity. I have infinitely more respect for John Walker Lindh AKA the American Taliban, than I have for those others. Because if you genuinely believe, as Lindh did, that youre associated with an evil, diabolical system which is diametrically opposed to your beliefs, then what Lindh did was honorable. He put his money where his mouth is. However, how could anyone possibly have respect for someone who is fully engaged in the system he decries, benefits from it more and more as time goes by, and yet believes his guilt is washed away by making disparaging comments about the country thats making him rich. Making him rich by 'exploiting' the poor innocent, helpless foreigners, as he thinks of them.

If you believe something is evil, yet you continue to participate in it, youre evil yourself. If you renounce it, and end all association with it, then I think youre an honorable man, regardless of whether youre now my mortal enemy, or not.

@Ragged, that was an excellent well thought out response, but Spankey said that, not me

 

[Verbose]

Verbose, Im talking about people who do nothing to 'change their nation' other than badmouthing it at every opportunity. I have infinitely more respect for John Walker Lindh AKA the American Taliban, than I have for those others. Because if you genuinely believe, as Lindh did, that youre associated with an evil, diabolical system which is diametrically opposed to your beliefs, then what Lindh did was honorable. He put his money where his mouth is. However, how could anyone possibly have respect for someone who is fully engaged in the system he decries, benefits from it more and more as time goes by, and yet believes his guilt is washed away by making disparaging comments about the country thats making him rich. Making him rich by 'exploiting' the poor innocent, helpless foreigners, as he thinks of them.

If you believe something is evil, yet you continue to participate in it, youre evil yourself. If you renounce it, and end all association with it, then I think youre an honorable man, regardless of whether youre now my mortal enemy, or not.

You're after the hypocrites. That I get then.

I also happen to think 99% of humanity live in that vast grey zone between hypocrisy and conveniency. We all know about an endless number of injustices and terrible situations, and yet we don't make ourselves the champions of these 1000 Known Worthy Causes.
One or two, maybe, provided we think we can win and it doesn't look like too much work in between making a living. Hypocritical? Perhaps. We still have to live as best we can. And in that situation, "evil" and "good" tends to lose any specific meaning as guides to our behavior. In this kind of Grey Zone most of us live, trying not to be bad people rather than Saviours of the World.

The only ones who will be perfectly consistent and expound an absolute morality in matters of politics and national allegience will tend to be extremists anyway, like Lindh (but only to a lesser extent someone like Chomsky). Fighting for a cause to the point of being willing to die for it requires no perspective and no concern for other people. Everything can be set aside for The Greater Good. These people also tend to have a view of themselves as involved in some form of Great Struggle, perhaps not as significant players themselves, but certainly not living the dreary little life of Joe Ordinary, trying to make ends meet and hoping the kids don't grow up to be too unhappy. (I sympatise with the Joe and Susan Ordinary's of the world. I feel obliged to as a believer in democracy.)

Maybe that kind of extremist attitude is admirable, but you can scrap the whole idea of democracy with it most of the time, since it's based on possibly hypocritical tenets like compromise and consensus.
Poltical maximalism tends to be very consistent. It also tends to call for the utter destruction of its opponents. (I'm a bit worried about US politics possibly heading towards this kind of maximalist mind-frame, from both sides of the political spectrum.)

That of course still leaves us with a bunch of men and women whining about things, while happily cashing in on them, which is very annoying.

 

[Kilroy]

If you hate the society you live, its culture and traditions, its history, and I guess its people as well, why do you stay? Are you one of those who, when theres a terror attack against your country, or your countrys allies, takes the side of the attacker, and says that your country and people had it coming to them, they deserve it, for being so evil? If you truly believe that, how can you possibly continue to participate in that society? Wouldnt it be more honest to pack up and leave, and set down roots in a society or culture that you truly believe in, and be among people that you like and respect? Its not so hard to imagine, millions of people do just that every year, and immigrate to other parts of the world.

It must be terrible to aid and abet an evil nation and its people by paying taxes into its treasury, and helping to fund all its diabolic schemes around the world. So why dont you leave?

You've convinced me!

 

[Narz]

If you hate the society you live, its culture and traditions, its history, and I guess its people as well, why do you stay? Are you one of those who, when theres a terror attack against your country, or your countrys allies, takes the side of the attacker, and says that your country and people had it coming to them, they deserve it, for being so evil? If you truly believe that, how can you possibly continue to participate in that society? Wouldnt it be more honest to pack up and leave, and set down roots in a society or culture that you truly believe in, and be among people that you like and respect? Its not so hard to imagine, millions of people do just that every year, and immigrate to other parts of the world.

It must be terrible to aid and abet an evil nation and its people by paying taxes into its treasury, and helping to fund all its diabolic schemes around the world. So why dont you leave?

I am going to leave, eventually.

In the meantime I try to pay as little taxes as possible.

It's a challenging process though. Where to go is the first question. It's not like the olden days where if Europe had you down you just set sail for the new world. There is almost no virgin hospitable land left on Earth.

Anyway, I don't hate America, I just think we're in for a fall. Still glad I'm here rather than China, England, Mexico, almost everywhere else.

Some people in some online circles I circle around in talk about Costa Rica and Belize being good places to buy land and build a community, I don't know enough about them yet though.

I don't think America is going to start majorly hurtin' for at least two or three more years now so I have time.

 

[Pyrite]

Ward Churchill stays mostly because of his involvement with AIM, IIRC.

I don't know much about chomsky.

 

[bhsup]

You shouldn't leave. If you truly love your country, and you're so upset with it that you think it deserves attacks upon it, you'd fight to get it back to the way it should be. Otherwise you don't love your country to begin with, and quite frankly if that is the case then you SHOULD leave. You owe it to the other citizens to get out.

 

[HawkeyeGS]

I don't think you should leave just because of something your government does. If it is so bad you would consider leaving stay and do something about it.

 

[Oerdin]

I think it would be better to stay and advocate for positive change. For instance you hate how the Christian extremists keep trying to force their religion on everyone then found a political group to fight them.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Guys in order to stay and fight for change, you have to believe in the overall system. You fight within the system. Im talking about people who dont just believe the country is misguided at the moment, they believe the system itself is a lie, and isnt just worthless, its actively malevolent.


@Kilroy, I talked you into leaving the country??

@Narz, Im surprised India isnt at the top of your list, theyve got a 5000 year tradition of vegetarianism.

 

[Narz]

@Narz, Im surprised India isnt at the top of your list, theyve got a 5000 year tradition of vegetarianism.

India's too crowded.

I'd definitely like to visit someday though.

I've heard Fiji is really nice too. Tony Robbins owns an island there. Maybe I'll take a cruise to Fiji and check out India while I'm in the area.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Last I heard, Fiji was crowded by Indians.

 

[Richard Cribb]

I don't know much about chomsky.

You shouldn't worry too much about that, since that seems to be the case with most of the posters mentioning him on this thread.

Guys in order to stay and fight for change, you have to believe in the overall system. You fight within the system. Im talking about people who dont just believe the country is misguided at the moment, they believe the system itself is a lie, and isnt just worthless, its actively malevolent.

Well, I don't know what cathegory I fall into in your system.
I think that my country is one of the best in the world both in regard to democracy and equality, but I still want to change it quite radically, especially since I can see it developing in the wrong direction.
I am immodest enough to think that I am a person with certain capabilities, and that I can do a positive contribution to achieve a desired change. Then it is my duty as a non-idiot in its original meaning to work for this.
Actually I can't remember having heard about, much less experienced personally the type you describe.
This may be because they have left already - the wealthiest Norwegian just changed citizenship - apparently he couldn't afford to be a Norwegian...

 

[The Last Conformist]

@luc: I think you're safe - you usually complain about countries other than your own.

 

[Richard Cribb]

@luc: I think you're safe - you usually complain about countries other than your own.

On this board yes, even if I don't think I am the most prolific posters in any thread dealing with criticism of the politics of any country, and that includes the US of A.Try for instance to find posts by me in threads about Iraq or Gitmo - there are probably a handful, but I think you might be disappointed with the result.
But I am certainly not a Herman von Bremen. In real life most of my political activity is about how to make Norway a better place. However on a board where the majority of members are young restaurative USA-men, there are not many chances to express dissatisfaction with Norwegian politics.
How many of them do you think know more than say three members of the Norwegian cabinet?
Not to sound snotty - I leave that to the real expert; you -but for all its qualities, one can hardly characterize this board as an important one when referring to politics.

 

[Rambuchan]

If you hate the society you live, its culture and traditions, its history, and I guess its people as well, why do you stay? Are you one of those who, when theres a terror attack against your country, or your countrys allies, takes the side of the attacker, and says that your country and people had it coming to them, they deserve it, for being so evil? If you truly believe that, how can you possibly continue to participate in that society? Wouldnt it be more honest to pack up and leave, and set down roots in a society or culture that you truly believe in, and be among people that you like and respect? Its not so hard to imagine, millions of people do just that every year, and immigrate to other parts of the world.

It must be terrible to aid and abet an evil nation and its people by paying taxes into its treasury, and helping to fund all its diabolic schemes around the world. So why dont you leave?

Personally, I don't fit this either. So it's hard to answer. I think there are many aspects of living in a country that are getting mixed up and that there's a great deal of focus on only one part of life experience in the OP. Plus, I think it puts forward quite a defeatist and uncaring approach to citizenship.

I love the culture, tradition, history, society and people of the country I live in. That's why I'm still living in it and that's why I'm such an eager tax payer, citizen, plus tour guide for visiting friends, relatives and even CFC members.

Talking about terrorist attacks ~ a very tiny percentage of daily life here ~ has very little to do with all this. Sure, it's arguable that British culture owes a lot to its imperial history, but it hardly bestrides the world like a colossus now. The major portion of it's wealth these days is simply not generated from bashing up other countries, as the OP likes to suggest. We've wasted not made money on most of the wars we're criticising anyway.

There's also a wider point, which others have made. I criticise the government over certain actions and policies because I think, in general, the Parliamentary traditions and social values of this country are well worth preserving. When you see leaders putting that system and those values into disrepute, you're driven to do something about it. Further, when you see incompetence, arrogance, liars, etc in office in your country - you tend to want them to get out because you love your country and don't want them messing it up!

One should not misinterpret a desire to keep sacred institutions and beliefs which are of value for a widespread loathing of one's nation.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Ok you and La Lucha (my pet name for Luceafarul ) arent quite that radical, but Im sure you know people who do fit that description in the OP. You know, those bottle throwing people with all the hardware on their faces, who become violent whenever theres a G8 meeting? What are they doing in our countries? Granted, alot of them dont work so they dont pay taxes into the treasury of their evil nations, but shouldnt they just leave? They should go live among the third world people they love so much, shouldnt they? Live as they do, share their suffering? Why not?