Why wasn't Arcane Mastery brought over to FF?

[Dean_the_Young]

This piece of awesome.

Seriously, it looks amazing. It offers a basis of that expansion of magic system everyone's talking about. AND IT'S ALREADY MADE.

So I have to ask... why?

 

[readercolin]

The problem with arcane mastery is that it expands what you can do with archmages and such. What REALLY needs to get changed, is magic at all levels. Most of all however, it needs to get changed for the spells and such, rather than adding a little bit that you will never actually see (playing as the friggin grigori, I still wasn't able to get more than about 1 or MAYBE 2 of the things that arcane mastery added, and that was running it in wild mana where there was more mana for my mages to get free spells from).

-Colin

 

[Swinkscalibur]

IMHO, this mod would be great along with a mod to expand magic overall. Who says it has to be one over the other.

 

[CurseUppl]

It's just a shame that it's nearly impossible to get access to most of the higher level spells in Arcane Mastery since:
a) units don't last that long
b) the time it takes and the xp requirements

 

[Valkrionn]

This piece of awesome.

Seriously, it looks amazing. It offers a basis of that expansion of magic system everyone's talking about. AND IT'S ALREADY MADE.

So I have to ask... why?

The problem with arcane mastery is that it expands what you can do with archmages and such. What REALLY needs to get changed, is magic at all levels. Most of all however, it needs to get changed for the spells and such, rather than adding a little bit that you will never actually see (playing as the friggin grigori, I still wasn't able to get more than about 1 or MAYBE 2 of the things that arcane mastery added, and that was running it in wild mana where there was more mana for my mages to get free spells from).

-Colin

I think both would be best, personally. More advanced magic, and better magic overall.

As for why it hasn't been ported... I had originally planned to do so for FFPlus. I still do, but first I need ideas for what to do with Creation, Dimensional, Ice, and Force magic.

If you'd like to see it anytime soon, I'd suggest starting a brainstorm thread, either in the FF forum or preferably FFPlus, as you know it will make it in the latter.

 

[Sephi]

I made arcane mastery a module for wild mana. You could download it, install it and then copy the module into the FF modules folder. I see no reason why it shouldn't work. Don't know if it is balanced in FF.

 

[Valkrionn]

It should work, it's all XML afaik. The only real issue is, like I said, balance... What to do with the other 4 spell spheres?

If someone comes up with ideas, I'm more than happy to put it in.... Otherwise I'm mostly looking at other things atm, as is Vermicious.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

How about this (see attachment for Ice, Dimensional, Creation, Force placements)

 

[Valkrionn]

That's pretty much what I thought. The issue is, it doesn't give any effects.

Only need one each, for the Master promotions. Not necessarily spells, but promotions...

For example, I think for Creation (Given Magister's previous posts on the sphere), a promotion granting Double/Triple cast (In FF, extra casts stack, but you can only set one per promotion), but a high (30%ish) miscast chance, would be appropriate...

Still need 3 more if I use it though, and I can't really think of anything off the top of my head.

 

[squadbroken]

Just throwing these out, maybe one or two will be good

Ice - Double movement on Ice
Force - Immunity to collateral damage or +1 attack range
Dimensional - +25% withdrawal or Marksman
Creation - +20% healing rate

Nothing amazing but most non-stackable bonuses are already covered by AM.

Only listed one for each since unlike the other mastery promotions they only require one school.

 

[Swinkscalibur]

Here is my suggestion:

- Drop the "minor" master promotions altogether (as it stands they give effects not spells, further expansion of magic will likely include cross sphere spells anyway)
- Roll the effect of each "minor" master promotion into the master promotion for each area.

Ex) Changed - Master of the Elements:
- requires Air III, Fire III, Water III, Earth III, Ice III
- requires Level 12
- gives 1 fire combat, 1 movement, healing while moving, 25% withdrawal chance, and 1 strength
- a minor effect related to the ice sphere - perhaps double movement on tundra, ice, snow

Ex) Changed - Master of Alteration:
- requires Body III, Life III, Creation III, Enchantment III, Nature III
- requires Level 12
- gives +30% combat, 2 first strikes, Heals extra 20% everywhere, Double movement in forests, +1 strength
- a minor effect related to the creation sphere - perhaps an additional casting (maybe +x% to miscast)

My thinking here is that the extra spell sphere in each area already represents an increased promotion requirement for the Master promotion. It would be unfair to essentially increase the promotion requirement by 4 (if you required an Ice Mastery as well as Earth and Wind, and Water and Fire). This way we have a net increase in promotion requirements of Ice I, which is easy enough to earn for free with an extra Ice mana.

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, I'd prefer to keep to the original setup, and alter it according to the image PL posted.

That said, I WOULD tweak it. The 'lesser' Mastery promotions would become Autoacquire promos... As soon as you have the necessary level 3 spells, you get the promotion. Should cut out 2 (3, if you add the new spheres) purchased promotions per branch, so you can get the whole thing slightly easier.

Instead of 19 promotions (Not counting the 63 for the spell spheres....), you have 7. Yes, that means 12 less, which just happens to be the number of new promotions you need for the 4 new spheres. Still, I like the setup better.

My ideas, now that you all have me thinking about it (Damn you all! ):

• Creation - Twincast, +30% miscast chance
  • For those of you who don't know, twincast in FF can be used for any spells, rather than doubling the amount of summons you get. It is also stackable, so if you gain a twincast effect from multiple sources (Amurites under Tya, in FFPlus), you can have 3,4,5, etc, casts a turn.
  • As for the reasoning for the effects....

    Kael has stated that the precept of Creation pushes the boundaries of what is possible with magic to its furthest limits, making this sphere the most powerful form of magic in Erebus...when it works. It just so happens that Creation magic is also the least reliable sphere magic. It may be appropriate to make Creation spells overpowered compared to other spheres, but also ad a high miscast chance.

• Ice - Passive rust effect, +30% Cold Damage, allows casting of a permanent version of Frozen Lands.
  • For the rust, my reasoning is that the area around the caster is cold enough to shatter the weapons.
  • For the spell... No other lesser Mastery promotion grants a spell, so it's interesting, and would be the only *Permanent* method of freezing terrain for non-Illian/Frozen civs.
• Dimensional - Teleport effect.
  • Not completely sure if this is possible via Promotion, if not I'll work on making it so.
  • I'd see it as an airdrop effect, up to 5 tiles away.
• Force - Non-Allied summons within one tile are banished each turn
  • I'm really not sure here. I believe I've read that Force is really all about Balance... In which case, banishing summons would be fitting. I'd love for Magister to swoop in and go over these.

 

[Swinkscalibur]

^Sounds feasible. I was just thinking though, the way you have it, especially for ice, creation etc. the extra promotion is completely unnecessary. An auto-acquire promo that is given after gaining Ice III is no different than just tying the effects to Ice III. Also the setup you are suggesting does in affect make Ice, Creation, Force and Dimension mana more powerful. (Unless there affects are weaker, or the other "lesser" master effects are strengthened)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Force is about balance and enforcing contracts. The Bestiary would seem to imply that Force is also about making sure the natural laws of physics, as well as The Compact, are maintained despite attempts to circumvent them. Dagda's angels spend a lot of their time fighting Ceridwen's demons, as Ceridwen tries to circumvent the natural laws most often. As magic is about bending the rules, Force could perhaps be seen as more anti-magic than magic.

The ability to send summons home does seem to fit Force. However, Force is so concerned with fairness that I don't think it is appropriate for it to banish your rivals summons unless it also banishes your own.

Cipus- There are seven Cipi. They are true angels that stand on the boundaries of Erebus and are responsible for enforcing the natural laws. They frequently clash with the angels of Ceridwen and are known as “the Pillars of Creation” for their appearance, which is that of tall white statues.
Runewyns- The runewyns are winged angels who are immune to all magic. They are frequently sent to battle powerful wizards or to cross magical barriers. They can drain away all but the most powerful spells with a touch.

Cipi should really have 2 p's, making it Latin for a stake, pale, grave marker, or especially (when plural) palisades. Kael was afraid people would confuse them with the Hippi if he spelled it right though.

After the Bestiary came out I decided to change my Force III spell to Summon Runewyn. The Rumewyn unit is magic immune, but more importantly can target Arcane units in stacks of stronger defenders, has a bonus vs arcane units, and has a python post combat call that can remove random promotions from spells, spell spheres themselves, and even channeling promotions from the enemy unit that defeats it.

 

[Valkrionn]

^Sounds feasible. I was just thinking though, the way you have it, especially for ice, creation etc. the extra promotion is completely unnecessary. An auto-acquire promo that is given after gaining Ice III is no different than just tying the effects to Ice III. Also the setup you are suggesting does in affect make Ice, Creation, Force and Dimension mana more powerful. (Unless there affects are weaker, or the other "lesser" master effects are strengthened)

Yeah, I thought of that too. I just want the Mastery of (Ice, Creation, etc) promotions. Looks better to me.

And yes, it makes those spheres stronger... But personally, I never use them, so I feel they could use the boost.

 

[Valkrionn]

Force is about balance and enforcing contracts. The Bestiary would seem to imply that Force is also about making sure the natural laws of physics, as well as The Compact, are maintained despite attempts to circumvent them. Dagda's angels spend a lot of their time fighting Ceridwen's demons, as Ceridwen tries to circumvent the natural laws most often. As magic is about bending the rules, Force could perhaps be seen as more anti-magic than magic.

The ability to send summons home does seem to fit Force. However, Force is so concerned with fairness that I don't think it is appropriate for it to banish your rivals summons unless it also banishes your own.

Cipi should really have 2 p's, making it Latin for a stake, pale, grave marker, or especially (when plural) palisades. Kael was afraid people would confuse them with the Hippi if he spelled it right though.

After the Bestiary came out I decided to change my Force III spell to Summon Runewyn. The Rumewyn unit is magic immune, but more importantly can target Arcane units in stacks of stronger defenders, has a bonus vs arcane units, and has a python post combat call that can remove random promotions from spells, spell spheres themselves, and even channeling promotions from the enemy unit that defeats it.

Yeah, I thought that it would be best to banish ALL summons... But then I'd have to make it a spell, rather than effect.

Not too much of an issue though, so I can do that... Maybe add magic immunity to the promotion?

Edit: What do you think of the other promotions? Do they fit the spheres?

 

[Webrider]

It would not hurt my feelings if some spells worked like a worker making an improvement over time.
2 wizzards could make the casting faster in some cases, not in others.

Dimensional could be level 1 can pass all terrain at move 1, level 2 create dimensional gate as the telporting gate, move up to 3 units between any two dimensional wizzards as you teleport from one town to another later in the game. Level three open gate to summon monster from other dimension. %chance it is under your control or rouge. Make it tougher then normal mob.

Creation< level mountain or hill to plains, at 2: create mountain or hill, at 3 create a resource, but make the creation act like a worker so it can take 40 turns. Could make the mountain hill creation act like a worker as well so it takes time.

Please while your at it let the dwarves have a benifit for colonizing a mountain. I forget what the center tile of a city is normally 2 food and 2 hammers or something like that. Maybe give them extra defense or something. It would of course make the terrain passable, so you could capture the city.

Force could be make a unit have the ability to seem like a friendly unit, summon a light saber for the caster, +3 or 4 to casters strength = to or better then minthril. Level 3 would be like the immortal promotion for a caster, if they die they teleport back to your capitol. Like a worker it might take them 20 - 40 turns to cast this on them selves maybe 3 to 10 depends on how you want to make it work.

Ice: level 1 dammage units on ice square like ranged combat like ice shards, make it more sever then a fire ball, since it is terrain limited. level 2 create tundra/ice tundra would count like an ice square perhaps in a radius around the wizzard. Level 3: Ice shards our of a warm sky ie: not limited to ice squares. You could also have Ice shards perhaps limit movement randomly.

Just throwing out some ides since you asked and arcane mastery would be cool.