Winning on Deity

Yashkaf

King of my Castle
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
93
Location
Rehovot. Google it.
It may only be a strange compulsion of mine, but the only way I play Civ right now is on huge maps, all the civs and Deity level. It's not that I always win on any other difficulty, au contraire. It's just that once you;ve joined the ranks of the gods... you just can't go back. And yes, that means using legal exploits before they get fixed in the next update (Loki, yes. Advanced start? Cheating). And yes, that means 20 start positions recycled on turn 10 and 10 games retired on turn 150. Still, this is what I do, and I'm sure many of you do too.

I know a lot of fun is figuring out your own strategies, but it's always nice to share your wisdom (show off) and learn from others (that bastard, I thought of it first). So I want this thread to be for posting tried and true stories of beating everyone on Deity, kinda like a Hall of Fame only with some more freedom, and designed to share strats, not gloat.

A few general guidelines for what I consider a fair win:

* No reloading. The AI doesn't reload. Be careful. Yes, it sucks to lose your level 8 city raider 3 beastmaster on a 98.6% battle but that's what life is for your silicon opponents.

* No thinking hard. The AI doesn't think hard.
(just kidding).

* Advanced start eliminates the gap the AI gets on Deity on the first turns (extra settler), so it isn't fair play. So no, you won't found either FoL or RoK. Live with it.

* Any other option that skews the balance in your Civ's favor (Archipelago map with Lanun, raging barbs with the Clan..).

* The more Civs, the better, the more victory conditions, the better. The less limitations, the better the game.

* Just use your conscience as to what is cheating and what isn't, or at least admit it (as I'm about to do myself very shortly).

Coming up: my first Deity win, as the Perpetual Perpetrator.
 
1st thing i learned was to avoid religions and concentrate on trade. right from the start get open borders with everyone you can and start trading all the goods you can so that you can have a healthy bonus early on in relations.

2nd thing i learned is that T1 troops are almost always better then T2 , but if you can build T2 in 1 turn then do that , etc.. (khazad see that alot)

3rd thing i learned is to take your time on each and every turn. know the terrain that you and your enemies occupy. know how combat is actually figured. and know when its ok to take a loss.
 
Leader: The one and only Perpentach.
Map: Huge, normal, fractal, low sea, temperate weather.
Options: Aggressive AI (more fun), Living World (double the goodness), Require Complete Kills (still open for trade, can vassalize and gift city later on), Permanent Alliances (cheat? maybe. In my game it didn't matter too much).
Civs: Everybody. 19 starting + Bas and Hybo.
Vic Cons: All enabled.
Victory: Tower of Mastery on turn 272, for a score of 203753.

Here's how it went:

* Starting position: river city, mostly forest and grassland around, some flood plains and wine. On my east: Thessa with plenty of room behind her, Ethne (bad news for Loki). On my west: Tebryn, Faeryl, Beer Bowl. Most of the other civs on my large continent further south behind Beeri, 4 civs on Islands.

* Build order: Loki, then worker for wineries and cottages, then warriors like mad to survive.

* Tech: Crafting for the wine, Ancient Chants from goody hut, Education, Bronze Working.

* First 80 turns or so: the scout picks up the goody huts and goes exploring, the warriors levels on a wolf and goes back to defend Jubilee since I can't waste a turn building Loki. The general idea is to flip as many cities as possible wherever I can, that means you have to rush Education for City States and also for the cottages, since you don't know what resources you'll get. Also, happiness isn't important, I'm going for a lot of pop 5 cities and not a metropolis.

* Loki: If you have a creative neighbor, don't go there. Any civs who start with chants are also better left for the time being, get Loki to the closest civ without AC. This way, he can flip a few cities which have been standing around for a while, maybe even grew a bit. Once everyone has AC the AI will build an obelisk in every city, but he's not smart enough to chop rush it. Spreading scouts is important if you've got 'em to find new cities quickly. Otherwise, Loki does a tour of the big cities to see which are building settlers and how long it would take them. Then you can plan ahead and get Loki to every city the moment it pops. What will the AI do? That's right, immediately build another settler. I had Loki go west and flip some Sheaim cities pretty far away, and that allowed Thess to creep up to my borders. Still, it turned out to be the best move I've done all game. The formula is 15% chance of flip every turn, so 5-6 turns after Loki arrives in a new town it's yours. Then try and catch the next settler that pops. I acually kept a list of the settler queues on paper.
* Diplomacy: your first military advantage as the Balseraphs is super mimics, but getting them takes time and requires some luck with easy opponents to start them going. Until Beastmasters and Druids, the best thing you can do is be ultra defensive and make friends with everybody. I paid half my soul in tribute to Tebryn and the others, and they repaid me with an empire.

* The thing that will make or break your game is an AI-AI war. Tasunke is great because he can be bribed, but otherwise just sit and wait. Did the aggressive AI help me unfairly? I think Tebryn would of started fighting anyway because Loki left him with only 4 cities and 40 pyre zombies, not a healthy balance. Anyway, he decided to go Hitler on everybody, much to my delight. The first to go was Faeryl, which is also a beach for Loki because he can't enter cities with hidden nationality defenders. After Tebryn took 4 of her cities, with Loki flipping every single one (a freshly conquered city has no chance of building and obelisk in time) he declared war on Beeri, and 10 turns later on Auric and Sabathiel. You'd think the combined armies of the world would slow the crazy Nazi down? No such luck (for them). Two stacks of 25 combat 4-5 Pyre Zombies just ripped through them. The fire damage is just unfair, as I've tasted myself later on. On an earlier try I made the mistake of joining the stronger Rhoanna when she attacked Varn Gossam. Conquer and flip gets you twice the cities, right? Wrong. It meant I had to defend all my new cities, and then watch in horror as Varn killed off Rhoanna's horsemen, then wiped her empire, and then turned to me. If I had patience, I'd have gotten Rhoannas cities for myself. Now I had to restart another game.

* When Tebryn was stopped I had about 6 built cities and 8 conquered cities flipped, and blossoming cottages throughout. Tech line: everything you need for resources, hunting for mutating harlequins, then a few economic techs and going for trade. The thing to do when tech trading starts is the famous Magellan Hawk: build a hawk, rebase to an opponent, fly on a peak, discover a new opponent, lick his behind, get open borders, repeat. I dicovered everybody except for 3 Island civs and tech traded my way to 5th place in score. The leaders are Thessa who founded FoL and had room to build and Rhoanna who was beating up on Dain and Varn. For people to like you, you really need to get everybody going to the same temples. I helped Thess spread FoL as much as I could, just so everyone could be my friends. It makes the AIs like each other too, but you only need a few big wars, which Tebryn and Rhoanna were happy to afford.

* With the Allies building huge stacks of defenders against Tebryn and Rhoanna settling, I had to build an army. It takes time and tech, but you can get a very decent army consisting of:

1. 4 beastmasters, varied. The BM is the easiest tier 4 unit, and you need harlequins more than horsemen anyway. The thing that makes them better for the Balseraph is the variety you can have: I had two upgraded from freaks with City Raider 3, one with light, mobility and commando for strikes deep in enemy territory, one with Drill and Blitz for beating up stacks of weak units. Of course, all should have passed through clown school and learned Dance of Blades and charming manners. Actually, I only used freaks for the beastmasters, I always prefer to have a harlequin with Chaos 2 running around with a bag of plutonium :nuke:;):nuke:. How did I get the two CR3? The arena is a harsh mistress for a lonely freak, but fair.

2. 4 Druids, the same. Mind 3, Chaos 3. One of the strongest regular units in the game, there's really no reason to waste one going around and vitalizing. Fun fact about pit beast: the AI will attack it with weaker units even if it's parked bext to his city and will dissolve into thin air if he leaves it alone (Kael, FYI). Fun fact about domination: it gives you your enemy's units. Hey, it's fun and it's a fact. Also, switch to Empy or RoK as early as you can. You stay neutral when you switch back to FoL or OO and the AIs like you more.

3. Super mimics: either build them straight up or up from warriors. The enraged ones go scouting, the weak to garrison, the strong/heavy/light/regen go to war. (By the way, heavy + light is excellent). Keep a priest nearby to get rid of diseases. The thing with mimics is that there's a tipping point you need to get over. They start out weak, but once you get a few promotions they can win battles and reach 15-20 promos in no time. I've read somewhere that they can't cast, but after beating a few rathas my mimics were blinding with best of them. They still don't do collateral damage if they steal barrage, which is actually good. You don't want this to be too easy, do you? I preferred keeping the light ones so my entire army could move 3 turns, though I had one heavy mimic that survived like 6-7 arena fights in a row, so I kept him. He later died attacking a city with the battle odds 99% in his favor. :p

* The rest of the game was smooth sailing: I teamed with Thessa, which actually didn't help me too much. We were trading techs anyway, and I had all the techs I needed except for Arcane Lore which I'd have gotten anyway. She gave me two mana types I din't have but I could have just conquered them, and her armies never saw any combat.
The allies invassalized themselves to me so I had to beat up Tebryn, and stole some of his Death and Fire adepts with domination. (I hadn't built any adepts, settlers, archers, ships or mounted units during the entire game. Specialize.) I let him capitulate also, so by that time I had 13 mana types.
I started building the towers when the Empyrian Rhoanna attacked Dain again, so I vassaled Dain and conquered two mana nodes from Rhoanna. (By the end of the war I had 20 Rathas, more than she had).

* Since I didn't need any archery, naval or mounted techs as well as anything in priest and melee beyond druids, I just started saving up money almost 40 turns before the end of the game. It takes some awareness to decide when you don't need any techs any more, but you should do it in the end game. The cash always helps build the wonders to win or buying an instant army. Alternatively, the earlier you switch to 100% culture the earlier you get the culture win. After 20 turns for finishing the 4 towers, I bought the Tower of Mastery for 36,000$ straight up. Nobody even had a chance to declare war.

* Game over. :king:

Thank you for reading, I'm looking forward to stories of your wonderful victories.
 
Yep advanced start is a bit of cheating. the AI does a very bad job at allocating it's money to build stuff on advanced start. Try using the autobuild function at the advanced start menu. It tends to waste all it's money to buy tech and workers but rarely improves tiles/buy buildings. It's not surprising to see the AI start with warriors on a classical start even when it could have bought a training yard to buy swordsman.
 
After getting my Kuriotate ass whipped a few time, I'm trying an early rush with The Wu Tang Embers Clan. Just waiting 20 turns with research on 0, getting 40 or so barbs with "For the Horde", deleting about 25 of them with the others in groups of 5-6 trying to conquer a couple of nearby capitals. The main advantage of the AI on deity is the extra city, that should take care of that. If I can get chants from a goody hut that would probably be great, as I need to beeline to education again for cottages and city states and build obelisks (no point building more troops). I've tried it twice today (turn 50 and turn 20) losing both times. Any suggestion for The Clan on deity from somebody with more experience with them (or just somebody smarter than me)? Also, who's better for the strat, Sheelba or Goblinface?
 
A few general guidelines for what I consider a fair win:

* The more Civs, the better,

Actually, on Deity adding as more civs than the game recommends skews the game towards the player because the difference in the amount of land between what each AI settles isn't that great compared to the player settles.

For example, if you play on normal settings with 6 players, then by the time all the land gets settled at around turn 150, each of the AI players may have around 8 cities total, and you'll have around 3.

But if you were to play on normal settings with 12 players, then by the time all the land gets settled at around turn 100, each of the AI players will have around 4 or 5 cities, and you'll have 2. Then you can concentrate all research and production in your capital, and the difference between you and your opponents isn't that great. Not to mention once you've subdued one of your opponents, you've basically made yourself one of the superpowers.
 
Yashkaf, i would not recommend sacrificing cottage tech to early rush in the game. You might get a few cities, but you will be so hopelessly outteched by the AI you are probably NOT going to get anymore cities for a very long time. Plus you will be suffering extra maintence cost for the cities, which will further reduce your crappy research rate.

Usually i only attack if i got bronze working and i see that my neighbour doesn't have copper.

As is it, it is already a challenge to maintain the same level of military tech as the AI. Try to ally yourself with a few top deity AI by adopting same religion and going to war together with them. This ensures that you can get free cities much easier plus improve relations. It is usually easier to win by cultural/tower of mastery victory for standard maps and above because you need to take over at least 2-3 ai (out of the 6-7 for standard) to get top score. Most of the wars will drag very long because most of the time, you will be using the same str units (or maybe even inferior) with a numerical disadvantage. I was in a standard game on deity and my first war was agonizing long. By the time i finished off the ai around turn 200 (quick speed), i had climbed from 7th(last) position to 3rd position. However, my score was still like 50% lower than the top ai , and the top ai nearly researched the entire tech tree.
 
i tend to disagree, kenneth.

in vanilla, especially on emperor+, you had to time your expansion to reach the plateau of courthouses in time with the money you got from rushing, often very hard to achieve. i lost quite some immortal and deity games until i got used to the time it took to reach this point.

in ffh2 you have two early plateaus: education and festivals.
education enables city states which is a lot more effective compared to courthouses.
festivals enable markets, and for quite some time you can even achieve a plus in netto income if you build a market in each new city.

a bit later there is kilmorph coming, courthouses come not that late, too, and there are a few other ways to adapt to expansion, like gambling houses.

taking elder councils into the equation you get +2 gold and +1 science from each city right in the beginning, would be an easy test to see how many cities you need (with city states) to get expansion not paying off science- and goldwise.

as military tech advance is quite slow production is worth even more compared to vanilla, and there is nothing better then just another city in many cases.
spending time building settlers is also time you could have spent for other things, and a few highly promoted warriors can take out most civs on deity alone, which means you don't have to pay a lot of support costs.

play a few survival games to get a feeling what military is supportable by a single city and what can be achieved with it.
 
Actually, on Deity adding as more civs than the game recommends skews the game towards the player because the difference in the amount of land between what each AI settles isn't that great compared to the player settles.

True, I still want to win though. I can't imagine how you could compete for example with a single other civ in the game. "For the Horde" could work and that's pretty much it. I didn't mean the number of civs to be an imposition, just a style I like to play. If anyone has good ways to win on immortal, or against one other civ or with raging barbs or whatever, I'd love to hear. I want this thread to be about general strats to use when the odds are stacked against you.
 
Yashkaf, i would not recommend sacrificing cottage tech to early rush in the game. You might get a few cities, but you will be so hopelessly outteched by the AI you are probably NOT going to get anymore cities for a very long time. Plus you will be suffering extra maintence cost for the cities, which will further reduce your crappy research rate.

I tend to agree with slowcar. I have no chance of ever catching up to the AI technologically unless my empire is twice his size, and with the orcs I would think my best chance is during the first 50 or so turns when the warrior barbs aren't much inferior to the city defenders. If I can survive defensively I might catch up eventually.

I think the point of Deity is that trying to use the same strategy as the AI only with better tactics (better city specialization or tech route or whatever) will always lose because the AI has such a big advantage. You need to fight an assymetrical war, do some crazy poop that the AI doesn't do and doesn't know how to counter. Like rushing Loki and trying to cause a world war. Like showing on the doorsteps of three civs on turn 25 with 5 desperado warriors from "For the Horde" and trying to catch him with few defenders. Like declaring war on somebody just so he'll send troops to die against your city walls to screw his economy and upgrade your warriors. Or declaring war on a civ half a world away so by the time his stack reaches you you'll have better troops, then counterattacking. The point is, with the civs in FfH so beautifully different, there must be plenty of desperate stuff to try, and some of it must work, not just Loki.
 
I play on a lower level. How often do you get to found a religion? At warlord, I can often run 60 sci 20 culture 20 gold or even 80 sci 20 culture with one or two holy cities providing me gold.

Do you have to avoid the religion line entirely and focus on the resource techs in the early game?
 
i almost never run culture. religions depend on the other civs in game. if there are not many it is sometimes possible to found a religion that is not preferred.
the later religions depend on my playing style, i can often found empyrion if i want to - but i put some effort into it as chalid is a very nice addition to my playstile - as are rathas/blinding light.
 
if the khazad are ingame, it can be tough to found RoK. Same goes for the Ljos and FoL. Besides that, at warlord it should be possible to found every religion in the same game ;).
I agree with slowcar though, don't run culture, build obelisks instead
 
kenneth and slowcar ,

A LOT of the decision to rush or tech has to do with what civ your playing , what leader your playing , and of course your initial starting location.

2 very very skewed exmples ....

playing as the sheaim with alot of floodplains around your going to want to tech quickly for KOTE , then go militaristic from there ...

playing as the dwarves with lots of forests and hills your going to want to rush a strong and hard military and grab a few cities from your neighbors.

at the level of deity it becomes more and more an issue of playing to your strengths. If you can do this while minimizing your weaknesses you can and will win.
 
while the sheaim and their skeleton-armies are an exception most other civs do favor a single starting style: build warriors, level them a bit on barbs and go to take out one of your neighbours. it seems too hard to accomplish first - but things get worse from here :)
education and festivals are the two targets to reach before the economy collapses. hopefully a hut or two help buffer the first maintenance for troops.
some civs can do this easy - illidans with the xp-palace, tasunke with aggressive/raider etc, but even as the elohim builder-style won't do much good on deity!
 
slowcar ,

i dont understand your push for festivals , in fact , i typically dont pick it up until much much later when i can get the tech in 2-3 turns.
 
Haven't tried 0.33 deity, but I managed to beat 0.32 deity with Svartalfar and declaring war on a neighbour early to get high level warriors by killing their spammed troops.

As with regular civ, the only way to beat deity without fixed start settings is to find areas of the game that the AI doesn't handle well and push those to the limit.
 
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