Wonder Elimination Thread

Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 10
Cristo Redentor 15
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 14
Great Library 21
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 3 (-2)
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24 (+1)
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 25
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 20
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 11 (+1)
Cristo Redentor 15
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 14
Great Library 21
Great Lighthouse 16 (-2)
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 3
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 25
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 20

Why so much hate for the Colossus and so much love for GL? The movement/sight bonus is pretty good with Navel Tradition(at least I think it's called that), but I rarely build it and on the right spot the Colossus can get you quite the shiny penny. I doesn't hurt that I usually get to iron working before optics and that the AI I have in my games tends to prefer the GL.So I don't under stand why people like the GL so much. If someone can try to explain I'd be grateful.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 11
Cristo Redentor 15
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 14
Great Library 21
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 3
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 25
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 19
Taj Mahal 18

Upvote for Sydney for a late game non culture empire is nice when you're not getting policies very often.

Downvote for Taj because anytime I going to build it I'm always going into natural golden ages anyways.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 11
Cristo Redentor 15
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 14
Great Library 21
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 4
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 25
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 19
Taj Mahal 18

Big ben is not really good for it alone. Although mercantilism and Militarism is synergistic.

And for The Great Walls... Although it is hard to build but not that bad. And very nice in MP games.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 11 (+1)
Cristo Redentor 15
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 14
Great Library 21
Great Lighthouse 16 (-2)
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 3
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 25
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 20

Why so much hate for the Colossus and so much love for GL? The movement/sight bonus is pretty good with Navel Tradition(at least I think it's called that), but I rarely build it and on the right spot the Colossus can get you quite the shiny penny. I doesn't hurt that I usually get to iron working before optics and that the AI I have in my games tends to prefer the GL.So I don't under stand why people like the GL so much. If someone can try to explain I'd be grateful.

The Great Library is one of several Wonders that looks better than it is, and science Wonders are thin on the ground (other Wonders that give GS points not much more common - look how popular Brandenburg Gate is). Science, next to population, is everything in Civ, and there's a not unjustified feeling that science Wonders are therefore good by default.

I think there's also an element of nostalgia - many people haven't fully adjusted to this Wonder not being as strong as it was in vanilla (intuitively, that is, not intellectually), due to the tech tree changes (while I haven't fully adjusted to it not being as good as it was in Civ 1...). There aren't really tech beelines you can usefully use it for in the G&K tech tree, but it does give you a quick shot at the National College, which is in the long term considerably more important for science generation.

These days it's a Wonder I'll only take if I have specific civs that benefit from it - principally the Maya Theology beeline or Korea for the tech boost from building it -but even a mediocre beaker boost is still a beaker boost. And it's almost always an obtainable Wonder as high as Emperor. But it's not one I'd vote against.
 
The Great Library is one of several Wonders that looks better than it is, and science Wonders are thin on the ground (other Wonders that give GS points not much more common - look how popular Brandenburg Gate is). Science, next to population, is everything in Civ, and there's a not unjustified feeling that science Wonders are therefore good by default.

I think there's also an element of nostalgia - many people haven't fully adjusted to this Wonder not being as strong as it was in vanilla (intuitively, that is, not intellectually), due to the tech tree changes (while I haven't fully adjusted to it not being as good as it was in Civ 1...). There aren't really tech beelines you can usefully use it for in the G&K tech tree, but it does give you a quick shot at the National College, which is in the long term considerably more important for science generation.

These days it's a Wonder I'll only take if I have specific civs that benefit from it - principally the Maya Theology beeline or Korea for the tech boost from building it -but even a mediocre beaker boost is still a beaker boost. And it's almost always an obtainable Wonder as high as Emperor. But it's not one I'd vote against.

Whoops by GL I meant Great Lighthouse. Guess I should have been more clear. I actually adore the Great Libray, once I actually kept reloading a save at least a dozen times to get it when Ghandi kept beating me to it so I think I like the Great Library a bit TOO much.
 
Whoops by GL I meant Great Lighthouse. Guess I should have been more clear. I actually adore the Great Libray, once I actually kept reloading a save at least a dozen times to get it when Ghandi kept beating me to it so I think I like the Great Library a bit TOO much.

My fault, I think - it was obvious in context... I think sight bonuses are underrated (including by me, as I rarely take them as promotions), especially in the later game when your units often have a range greater than their sight, or are bombers. A ship with a good sight bonus can stay out of city range and still act as an effective spotter, or get closer to shore and see some way inland. It felt rather like cheating in a recent game against the AI when it was completely at a loss as to how to deal with nuclear subs that never came close enough for cities to spot it (and which sunk destroyers as fast as Maria Theresa could churn them out). It's certainly a very hard Wonder to get, but then many of the good ones are - the AI is programmed to prioritise a lot of the better ones.

The sight bonus also helps with pre-Caravel exploration, since you're confined to the coast and can't otherwise see very far into ocean areas nearby.
 
I'll chime in as a vocal hater of Colossus. Here are the problems: (1) it's terrain specific to coastlines, but its associated technology is on the opposite side of the tech tree. Naval powers will ultimately want iron (frigates), but it's not your #1 priority if you have a start loaded with sea resources, particularly now that the pike path is so good and iron is damn expensive. (2) The AI seems to really like this wonder. If you shoot for it and miss, there are no consolotion prizes because iron isn't adjacent to any other wonders. (3) If you really want gold and have sea luxuries, shouldn't you start with sailing instead of iron (sell you luxury). It's going to take you a loooong time to make the same amount of cash with Colossus. In the meantime, you've burned through a ton of hammers and I already have a trireme or two.
 
I think there's also an element of nostalgia - many people haven't fully adjusted to this Wonder not being as strong as it was in vanilla (intuitively, that is, not intellectually), due to the tech tree changes (while I haven't fully adjusted to it not being as good as it was in Civ 1...). There aren't really tech beelines you can usefully use it for in the G&K tech tree, but it does give you a quick shot at the National College, which is in the long term considerably more important for science generation.

Yes...a good point...I find I'm still trying to adjust to some of these new realities....and the Great Library seems to be one of those that doesn't seem quite as critical as it once was.... Though the free library is nice to get if you factor that into the expenditure of hammers. Even Oxford I now seem to view as less urgent...though partially because you know that no one can scoop it from you.....

There are other things I still need to adjust to....and after reading one of today's other threads, I think I need to focus more on micro-managing my specialists.

Also I seem be getting more interested in trying to smooth out productivity a bit better among my cities....such as having Iron Works in one of the lower productivity cities.... In vanilla I generally focussed on having my main city as the cultural and productivity "powerhouse"....G&K seems to call for a bit more flexibility....

But I'm still on the "learning curve"....Heck, with Petra I even look forward to desert cities....and I'll rush build Petra, if I can and at that point in the game you likely won't know if it can be a major future benefit to some other civ. :)
 
(1) it's terrain specific to coastlines, but its associated technology is on the opposite side of the tech tree

You don't need fishing boats to get the boost. It works on ALL the tiles. That said, Pottery->Sailing->Optics is not an atrocious addition of research in order to maximize the benefit.

(2) The AI seems to really like this wonder.

I disagree? Not sure what games you have come to this conclusion on. The AI shoots for Civil Service and imo often ignores the top and bottom techs. I have rarely ever seen them build colossus, and never steal it from me.

(3) If you really want gold and have sea luxuries, shouldn't you start with sailing instead of iron (sell you luxury).

I fail to see what prevents you from doing both? You don't have to rush to Colossus because it's not taken that much, but yes, I would hook up my seasources (and perhaps have god of the sea pantheon) and look towards Optics, but I'd definitely consider going to IW to nab it if I had 3+ resources within a decent city's range.

It's not going to be a winner but I really don't understand the constant downvoting of it. Oh well.
 
Yes...a good point...I find I'm still trying to adjust to some of these new realities....and the Great Library seems to be one of those that doesn't seem quite as critical as it once was.... Though the free library is nice to get if you factor that into the expenditure of hammers. Even Oxford I now seem to view as less urgent...though partially because you know that no one can scoop it from you.....

I almost always take Oxford late - usually accidentally, but it does mean I can get a bigger beaker bonus from it.

I've taken to seeing GL less in terms of including a Library in its cost, and more in terms of the consideration that, for the extra it costs compared with a Library, it doesn't give you a great deal. When you build GL, you'll have a pop 3-4 city, and growing as you build. If GL takes 10 turns more than a library (which is common with a moderate production start and 3 citizens), that's 30-40 hammers you aren't getting from the library while you add the 'Great' bit. And the bonus you'll get from the thing is at most 100 hammers at the time you're forced to build it to stop the AI getting it.

There are other things I still need to adjust to....and after reading one of today's other threads, I think I need to focus more on micro-managing my specialists.

I've been doing a lot more of that recently, and it makes a huge difference. I'm still in the mindset that the main role of a specialist is to add specialised production - and as a result I rarely put people in Workshops or Markets because they don't add any production you can't commonly get from working tiles. At the same time I tend to add scientists and artists wherever I can because they provide a bonus I don't get from working tiles. The result is that I get unspecialised cities that produce the same couple of GP types, and I rarely spawn Merchants or Engineers. Since changing my practice I'm spawning GSes every few turns in the late game, Artists uncommonly, and Merchants somewhat frequently. I still neglect the production buildings and in any event rarely want engineers in quantity.

Also I seem be getting more interested in trying to smooth out productivity a bit better among my cities....such as having Iron Works in one of the lower productivity cities.... In vanilla I generally focussed on having my main city as the cultural and productivity "powerhouse"....G&K seems to call for a bit more flexibility....

I try to heavily specialise production cities, but I am coming to realise I need at least two in most games, rather than focus all my production in one city. My capital will usually tend to have respectable production even if I don't specialise it, so I tend to try and make that my gold city if I have the terrain/resources.

The AI shoots for Civil Service and imo often ignores the top and bottom techs. I have rarely ever seen them build colossus, and never steal it from me.

I haven't seen the Colossus prioritised, but different AIs certainly follow different tech paths (and the Lighthouse is always highly prioritised by the AI, so some at least take the top path). This is partly why Wonders are harder to grab the more civs there are in the game - if they all took the same tech paths, it would be as easy to get the Lighthouse with 12 civs as it is with 2.
 
You don't need fishing boats to get the boost. It works on ALL the tiles. That said, Pottery->Sailing->Optics is not an atrocious addition of research in order to maximize the benefit.

It works on all of the tiles, but you can't get the lux without fishing boats.

I disagree? Not sure what games you have come to this conclusion on. The AI shoots for Civil Service and imo often ignores the top and bottom techs. I have rarely ever seen them build colossus, and never steal it from me.

It probably depends on the sort of map you generate and the difficulty level. In my fractal/immortal games, there tend to be a lot of coastal civs, and the classical water wonders tend to go quickly. This can even happen in fractal/emperor. If you're playing pangaea or even continents, you might not have this experience.


I fail to see what prevents you from doing both? You don't have to rush to Colossus because it's not taken that much, but yes, I would hook up my seasources (and perhaps have god of the sea pantheon) and look towards Optics, but I'd definitely consider going to IW to nab it if I had 3+ resources within a decent city's range.

If I'm able to get both, then that's great! But my experience has been that if I want to get god of the sea in a map with lots of coastline, I have to build Stonehenge or at least several shrines. By the time I've done that, Colossus has been nabbed, particularly if I've also tried to hook up water resources to sell them.
 
Note on the Great Library:

It's worth the extra hammers.
-There's an inherent science boost to it (I think +3) that is huge in early eras when you'll be getting 20 science tops.
-It's often the only Great Scientist points I'll be able to get unless I get the Oracle. You'd often take just as long to research Philosophy to build the thing than you would to research something else and build the GL to pop Philosophy for free. Add on the build time for the Oracle, and that's probably a Great Scientist maybe 30-40 turns sooner than without building it.
-Great Scientist + NC in your capital will increase your science output by +12 per turn
-There's also the gold you save throughout the game not having to pay to maintain a seperate library.
-In short, you've increased your science in a city by 16.5 after buffs through the GL in an era when most civs are making 30 at most.

That being said, it's not gamebreaking to lose the GL, especially since I wouldn't put it past the AI to use the free tech on Mansory or something instead of maxing its benefit.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 11
Cristo Redentor 15
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 14
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 2
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 25
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 19
Taj Mahal 18

See above for why I like GL.

I gotta downvote Great Wall... its useless in the player's hands more often than not, as the AI lolligags anyway, and a pain in the AI's hands.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 9
Cristo Redentor 15
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 14
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 2
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 22
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 25
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 19
Taj Mahal 18
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 9
Cristo Redentor 13 (-2)
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 14
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 2
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 23 (+1)
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 27
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 25
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 19
Taj Mahal 18

More food means more science, more production, more gold, more culture, more faith as well. A free garden to top it off too.

Cristo Redentor is only good for culture victories and is a waste for other victories. Often times you win before you can get it anyways and the bonus isnt that great.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 9
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 14
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 2
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 23
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 25
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

No one needs Sydney Opera House for any victories, including culture victory. Does anyone really need an extra policy in the late game?

Oracle on the other hand is more useful.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 9
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 2
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 23
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

Pyramids are to important to my typical early gameplay. I think I'd be lost if I didn't get it.
Forbidden Palace's benefits usually aren't needed by the time I get to it. I only build it to stop the AI from building it.
 
No one needs Sydney Opera House for any victories, including culture victory. Does anyone really need an extra policy in the late game?

Oracle on the other hand is more useful.

Well SoH also provide 50% culture. In a capital city it can probably save an additional 2-3 turns for a culture victory provided you kept up with science. Compared to other late Wonders it's probably not the most useless. Then again, Great Firewall is gone already, as is the Pentagon and CN Tower so... I guess it's just a matter of time.
 
Alhambra 20
Big Ben 24
Brandenburg Gate 20
Chichen Itza 25
Colossus 9
Cristo Redentor 13
Eiffel Tower 24
Forbidden Palace 12
Great Library 22
Great Lighthouse 16
Great Mosque of Djenne 14
Great Wall 0
Hagia Sophia 23
Himeji Castle 21
Hanging Gardens 24
Hubble 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa 22
Louvre 24
Machu Picchu 22
Neuschwanstein Castle 23
Notre Dame 25
Oracle 28
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 22
Pyramids 26
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 23
Sydney Opera House 17
Taj Mahal 18

The Great Wall: It has it's uses, but I feel if you have to build it, then something is aleady going wrong... Might be more useful in MP, though.

The Hanging Gardens: Food = awesome. Free garden = cool. :)
 
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