Wonder for dummies

[Wojciech Rodzik]

Hi,

I would like to create BNW wonder list for dummies. I am curious to learn your opinions on them, but will start with early ones:

1. Great Library - I am in love with that one. Free tech, free library, easy way to advance to later epoch... MUST HAVE for every strategy.
2. Temple of Artemis - 10% more food in my cities, faster archer construction... Not that strong. Second rate for me, usually AI manages to beat me to it.
3. Hanging Gardens - 6 food (nice in capital), free garden.. If you are planning to spam GP from that city, and have no fresh water.... Else 2nd rate.
4. Pyramids - Free workers, faster workers, minor culture bonus... Loved that one, now just meh
5. Oracle - free social policy. Since social policies are no longer connected to cultural victory (at least not directly) - crap. But crap I love... And crap I always get.
6. Colossus - extra money per water tiles, free trade ship.. I am always building that, not sure why
7. Petra - MUST HAVE for me. I build city especially for it in the middle of desert... Use GE. After I think of it - my tactics should not evolve around that wonder... Still love it.
8. Machu Picchu - MUST HAVE, that one is REALLY good.
9. Mausoleum of Halicarnassus - MEH, althought if you play on settler, and have nothing to do... Still MEH
10. Terracotta army - MEH X 2. Although you could build TONS of units, then manage to steal that one from AI (AI loves that one) - it could be useful... Never build that one.
11. Parthenon - is there a reason to build that one?

 

[isau]

The Forbidden Palace is the main one I always want and forget to tech to in time to grab (on Immortal). It provides free delegates at a time when city state alliances don't yet count. I've used it, combined with Diplomats, for some crazy world edicts, like getting my minority religion passed as the World Religion.

I always want Hanging Gardens. Whether I actually try to get it is another question.

Great Library is among my least favorite. It comes too early. It would be incredibly useful as a Medieval or even maybe Classical wonder, but it's so early that the tech you get just isn't worth the risk of losing it (which yo will 99% of the time on Emporer or higher).

Petra is IMO rarely worth the risk at higher difficulties without pretty good luck.

 

[Enonwnn]

1. Great Library - Not worth the time and effort if on Immortal/Deity. Most of the time you will not get it. At lower levels, it's only worth going for if you're able to get a National College out straight afterwards, which in most cases means playing tall for the early game.

2. Temple of Artemis - Very strong if you have high food production. Couple this with food caravans, Hanging Gardens, Polders/Aztec Lakes/Hill Farms/etc, Swords into Plowshares, etc and you will have mega-cities, fast.

3. Hanging Gardens - Basically a free food caravan. Good if you want to keep an extra Currency route open. Powerful if you have food amplifiers (see above).

4. Pyramids - One of the most powerful early wonders. It costs little more than hard-building two workers, yet you get faster worker build rates, and an early GE point. The only time I won't build this is if I build 3 or fewer cities.

5. Oracle - I rarely went for this even in pre-BNW games, but I rarely went for CV's anyway. I only build this if there's nothing else to do.

6. Colossus - I missed a trick with this one in pre-BNW (only built it earlier this year, very powerful). Now with the BNW changes, I find that extra trade route does come in useful.

7. Petra - Must have, if and only if, I have a heavy desert start. The extra trade route is okay, but I'd rather have Colossus than Petra.

8. Machu Picchu - Agreed, one of the best wonders in the game. I never have cash problems when I get this.

9. Mausoleum of Halicarnassus - Very powerful early wonder, but situational. If your capital has 3+ stone/marble, you will be raking it in. The earlier you get this, the better, although I'd rather get things like Stonehenge first as MoH isn't highly regarded by the AI.

10. Terracotta army - Might be more useful now that Amphitheatres, etc have lost their cultural bonuses, but I'm yet to see it as a main target.

11. Parthenon - Early era Great Work will come in useful for later theming bonuses. Don't underestimate this one.

 

[Wojciech Rodzik]

I forget about:

12. Stonehenge - very useful, usually 2nd wonder I get. Essential if you want to create your own religion without Uluru, or pantheon giving faith.

13. Great Wall - only useful if you need to want to conquer like crazy, and need to deny it to AI

 

[Stellarnight]

1. The GL is good...if you get it. Thing is that it is not easy to consistently snag the wonder without copious amount of luck and forest chopping on higher levels. Getting it though, is a good bonus with the free Tech and Library and most importantly, the free Scientist Point. However i won't say it is an essential wonder. Most of the time, it is gone by turn 45 on Emperor, faster on Immortal and Diety. The problem here is the massive opportunity cost should you build and fail to get it. You could have gotten a worker or a settler. Hence it is not essential unless you are fairly confident you can get it.

2. Artemis. It is a good wonder though i don't built it often. The AI doesn't value this as high as other wonders but take too long and it will be gone. The food bonus is pretty amazing though. Same problem as GL. Too early and the opportunity cost for screwing it up is huge and there are many other things that are more important in the early game.

3.HG. Used to be pretty much essential but is now relegated to useful if you can spare the hammers. HG is good if you need a garden but not next to a river but the 6 food bonus can now be easily compensated by the internal food trade. Another wonder in the "If you can get it, then it is good but not entirely essential" bracket.

4. Pyramids. The effect is good on paper but is more useful in the mid-game which by then someone has built it. Usually you would have 1 or 2 workers around by the time you build this wonder so you have excess workers. Furthermore, as you have taken liberty, it is also likely that you picked the free worker policy which also increase your construction speed. So the Pyramids is overkill for me unless you are running an ultra wide empire early on.

5. Oracle. Fantastic wonder. Free Soci Pol. Usually you can get this after finishing your first tree in which you can open Patronage. Doesn't increase So.Pol cost either. The AI doesn't prioritize it. Build it whenever possible.

6. Colossus. Free Trade Ship. Extra Route. Extra gold. Fantastic. Problem is that it lies on the IW route which makes it problematic. Though if you are coastal,trade CIV, it is generally a good idea to try and get it. Besides going IW means that there is nothing much else to build

7. Petra. It is like a Morocco wonder. Good wonder but you need to beeline it if you want to build it before the AI though this is wonky. It largely depends if any Civs are in the desert. Sometimes nobody built Petra for the entire game while sometimes it is gone by turn 90. Rushing Petra usually mean ignoring the top half of the tree which might be a risky gamble should you fail to get petra. Free trade route is good though and combined with the Desert Folklore makes desert hills awesome.

8. Machu Piccu. A little of a situation wonder though the Inca rightfully, have a pretty good chance of building it since thy are always near mountains and their UA complements the gold aspects from city connections and the wide style of the Inca pretty brilliantly. Good to get if you are going wide but not so effective for tall empires.

9. Another situational wonder. Obviously you don't built this with no stone or 1 stone. However starts with 3 stones/marbles? Do it for the love of god especially if you got the pantheon that gives faith for stone and marble. With gold scarce in the early game, rolling stone heavy starts can be a god send if you snag this wonder. The 100 gold bonus is just icing on the cake.

10. Terracotta. Sounds amazing on paper. Works well for AI (because they have gazillion gold) but not so good for the player. To take full advantage, you want to have a varied army but this early in the game, it is counterproductive to be building all sorts of units. The gold maintenance for an early army can be killer. A wonder that is pretty creative but highly impractical. Though if this wonder is moved to mid-game, it could be useful.

11. Never managed to build it in all the BNW games i played. The AI must have prioritize this right at the top. Free Work of Art and +4 Culture. Nothing spectacular but a Classical piece of Great Work of writing is hard to find and may be worth just for its role in fulfilling some of the tougher theming bonus. Suffers from the Opportunity cost syndrome though. NC is much more worth the time.

 

[Scott Jegg]

edit: must play nice.

 

[Makavcio]

1. Great Library
Very hard to get. It's a gamble on emperor, unobtainable on higher levels. Its bonus isn't that great, either. Just one early tech and much more expensive than standard libraries.

2. Temple of Artemis
One of the best wonders, however you need to build it very early when there are much better things to do. Usually not worth the time for me.

3. Hanging Gardens
This one is tricky. +6 food looks like much, but it gets negligible quite soon. You need tech for this only (it can be researched later) what is also very bad. I build it only in tall games when my capital has nice production.

4. Pyramids
Extremely useful, though requires liberty. If you open liberty, you drastically postpone tradition's finisher and it's bad. I usually pray that my neighbor builds it.

5. Oracle
A little too expensive. Good for a free opener of a new tree or a faster finisher.

6. Colossus
Extremely useful. A free trade route is priceless. Monetary gain from plots is just a nice bonus.

7. Petra
Another free trade route plus bonus from plots. A must-have in desert climate.

8. Machu Picchu
Gold and religion. Very useful, though getting it can be problematic. If AI has a capital near mountains, you can say goodbye to MP.

9. Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
Nice from far, far from nice. You'd need at least 3 stone/marble resources to justify its creation and even then it's questionable. It's cheap, though.

10. Terracotta army
Huge bonus to military, though I've never built it once in BNW. I just let AI build it and go bankrupt soon after

11. Parthenon
Not only useless, but keeps you occupied when there are better things to do. It provides some culture, it's a fact, though its +2 tourism is completely useless at that point. A great work for theming is nice ofc, though I never have any problems with theming when I go for high tourism.


There are a few more wonders worth mentioning here, for example:
12. Chichen Itza
A must-have for everyone, though hard to get in BNW. I never had any problems with it in GnK but now it's a pin in the neck. Some happiness is nice and +50% GE time is spectacular. It's a bonus for production and culture, and you deprive your opponents of it.

13. Notre Dame
If you can get it, go for it. It's expensive, though, on the wrong side of tech tree and AI likes the wonder as well. Imo, unobtainable since immortal. The smaller map you play, the better it gets. It's a huge pop cap booster in a moment when you really need it.

 

[Dogmouth]

Oracle is better than the Great Library by a wide margin. Consider: GL nets you a free tech, but it's a free CHEAP tech, so you're basically converting hammers into beakers at a pretty mediocre rate. In 100 turns, you won't notice the difference. Oracle nets you a free social policy, and in 100 turns you will have one more social policy than someone without the Oracle, because your policies don't scale up after acquiring the Oracle social policy (the equivalent would be if getting the GL shifted the entire tech tree and resulted in cheaper tech costs for the entire game). Also, GL is impossible to get at some difficulty levels, while Oracle is there for the taking.

 

[Scott Jegg]

GL nets you a free tech, but it's a free CHEAP tech, so you're basically converting hammers into beakers at a pretty mediocre rate.

I would consider it if I was in a race to get Chichen Itza, because knocking off all those turns can make a big difference; however, it's still almost impossible to get at immortal (I dunno how realistic on emperor), possibly requiring pottery to be popped from a ruin very early on, and then also require forests or amazing tiles to build it fast enough. So situational it's not even worth considering as a strategy... it's a pure luck punt. Therefore, it's only worth considering at lower levels, and then I'd wonder if it was even necessary, as I wouldn't imagine getting to civil service first was even an issue.

It really is one of the most overrated wonders, and as mentioned already, the effects of it will be forgotten quickly.

I'd go as far as to say that the reliance on and perceived necessity of these early wonders is a real stumbling block to players improving their game.

 

[kb27787]

My 2 cents: any of these are gettable even on deity with enough luck (and sometimes it takes A LOT OF luck) nonetheless...

1. Great Library - Build it fast or don't build it at all; think of it this way, by building a regular library you get 70+ hammers you can spend on something else... in exchange for +3 beakers and maybe several turns worth of tech, it's your call.
2. Temple of Artemis - The wonder that requires the lowest tech which you can beeline from the start even neglecting pottery. A shrine to get fertility rites is more practical... 10% to archer production is not much. Not worth it...
3. Hanging Gardens - Excellent wonder and doable if you check the tradition AIs capitols... if they are building something else you can get away with it. +6 food is +9 hammers, as those 3 citizens can now work mines... HUGE early game. Allows you to build a garden in a capitol which otherwise would not be able to build one.
4. Pyramids - Liberty sucks... and you can just build 2 workers separately for the same amount of hammers... still... the GE point is not entirely useless... I hate it because I hate the policy tree; the wonder is not so bad itself.
5. Oracle - Easiest wonder to get on deity... in the way of your NC anyway so you might as well build it... not so game breaking in itself.
6. Colossus - Early game you will abuse cargo food ships for your capitol so this is useless until later in the game.
7. Petra - A game winner. Build it (or even relocate your capitol) whenever you can if you have lots of desert hills/oases. Often enough none of the AIs capitols have deserts so you can take your time.
8. Machu Picchu - +faith is not useless and quite often none of the AIs can build it. Take this at your leisure, but it itself is not that game-breaking.
9. Mausoleum of Halicarnassus - Only if your capitol has 5+ stone/marble. Pretty nice for the gold for each GP. That ends up being thousands of gold at the end of the game.
10. Terracotta army - in GnK +6 culture was nice, now you might as well spend those hammers building archers and chariots... a completely useless wonder.
11. Parthenon - +6 culture (+4 and +2 from artwork) very nice for your capitol if it has lots of 4th ring stuff. A lot of AIs will beeline it, but if you got GL, you can pick drama as your free tech and go for it. Unobtainable in most (90%+) deity games though.
12. Stonehenge - Situational (on deity you may still miss founding a religion even with it) rushing Hagia Sophia is the same thing, except safer and more doable.
13. Great Wall - Game breaking. This ensures the safety of your empire up until dynamite except against golden age Persia with only a handful of ranged units. Very strong for peaceful-oriented civs who want to turtle all day and get by with having a joke of a military. This will stop even the most vicious attack cold until the enemy masses 8+ knights (and even then knights are horrible against cities).

 

[MarshalN]

1) Great Library: If the dirt is right you can build it, but you better start this quick, or it'll be gone. It's a nice early boost to science - 3 sci is the boost of an extra city, basically. Not insignificant at that point in the game.

2) ToA - nice wonder, but I usually have better things to build (like archers) and the AI often gets it quick too, pretty risky to build just like the GL

3) HG - Nice if you want the food and you have the happiness to support the extra pop. A great wonder, you do have to make sure you go for Maths early to get it with any reliability.

4) Pyramids - usually sitting around for you to take. As many others noted, it's about the price of two workers, so if you are short on workers, go for it, but yeah, liberty sucks.

5) Oracle - almost always still there when you have time to build it. I usually take it - free SP is always nice.

6) Colossus - obviously requires the right city to build it in, but pretty gettable and the extra route is quite useful

7) Petra - very good if you have the right city, but really, it's pretty impossible to get on immortal/deity (requires a fair amount of luck) as the AI builds it even on the crappiest one tile desert

8) MP - very gettable, and a nice boost to money.

9) Mausoleum - I find it hard to justify the cost of this thing unless you've got a lot of stone.

10) Terracotta - I think I've built it once in BNW just for laughs when I was Spain and had the solomon's mine. I don't really need another warrior and I'd rather spend the hammers on useful units instead.

11) Parthenon - even worse than Terracotta, and the AI loves it. I never bother.

12) Stonehenge - the timing of this isn't great as you usually have better things to do. The early faith is nice, but it's a huge investment to build. I usually ignore it.

13) GW - great for turtle games, and also to deny the AI this thing. Nothing more annoying than the AI popping the GW while you're about to attack their capital.

 

[fyar]

My comments would pretty much match Stellarnight's to a tee. So rather than repeating them, I thought I would explain the difficulty levels at which I build them. I've played my way up through Immortal, though I've only played 1.5 games at Immortal. (I won my first Immortal game by Domination, and am halfway through my second.)

1. Great Library: Must-build for King and below. Must-NOT-build at Immortal or Diety. At Emperor, I probably built it more often than not, but it depended on the start.

2. Temple of Artemis: King or below. At higher difficulties, it comes so early that some AI might start to build it right away, but I always have higher priorities that early.

3. Hanging Gardens: Emperor and below. At Immortal, I might try depending on the start.

4. Pyramids: Prince or below.

5. Oracle: Always. (I haven't tried Diety yet, but the "experts" seem to say you can get it even at Diety.)

6. Colossus: Prince or King or below. It's a very nice wonder, but since Iron Working is such a low priority, only at Prince or King do I actually get there before the AI. If I get to Iron Working and it still hasn't been built, then I almost always try because it's that good. Just not good enough to make it worth delaying Philosophy or Education or Construction.

7. Petra: King or below, maybe Emperor if you get a decent enough start; though in my one full playthrough at Immortal, I did get it (I had like 6 desert hills!). Based on what others say it sounds like I was lucky to get it at Immortal... I think no one else spawned near a desert.

8. Machu Picchu: King or below, maybe worth the trouble at Emperor if you're going wide.

9. Mausoleum of Halicarnassus: Prince or below.

10. Terracotta Army: Never, unless I'm bored and already know that early that I'm going to win.

11. Parthenon: King or lower.

12. Stonehenge: King or lower; Emperor or Immortal only if I think I getting a strong religion will be a game-breaker (e.g., if going for a cultural victory, or if I have tons of wine/incense and REALLY want monasteries).

13. Great Wall: Prince or below.

Prince or below basically means that I don't care for the wonder at all, but at those levels, it's so easy to get wonders that I pretty much build them just because I can, not because I need them.

 

[redwings1340]

I don't have the ancient religious wonders pack, so I'm leaving a few of them off

1. Great Library - Great if you can get it, but on higher difficulties it is pretty impossible to get, and you learn that it is avoidable.
3. Hanging Gardens - 6 food is pretty sweet. The free garden isn't bad, especially if you aren't on fresh water. Tradition is the best policy to take to start, and food is the driving force early game - I love this one.
4. Pyramids - If the computers aren't going liberty and you are... You might as well get this one. It is pretty good.
5. Oracle - Social policies are awesome. On my Poland deity game, I basically built every wonder that gave me a free social policy. The computers don't prioratize those, and social policies are amazing. Great wonder and one you can actually get on any difficulty.
6. Colossus - It's in an awkward spot in the tech tree, but if you're a costal civ, it probably is worth getting. I've still found myself forgetting about this because I don't like going down this tech path though. This is probably a mistake, the colossus is awesome for a money based costal civ.
7. Petra - AMAZING to have, but really hard to get. Settling a city on desert hills as morocco specifically for this is awesome if you can get it, but if you miss it, it can really set you back.
8. Machu Picchu - This one is awesome! I think it's probably better pre-BNW though when you can more easily have a wide empire. Still, it's nice.
10. Terracotta army - This one seems great, only it is especially an all or nothing proposition, is especially difficult to time (the longer you wait, the better an army you will have, but you have more chance of losing it), and is weakened from early warmongering being weakened. I think it would be amazing in G+K.
11. Parthenon - Good for culture victory I'm guessing, although the computers love it anyway, so you're probably not going to get it even if it would be useful.
12. Stonehenge: Situational but not that amazing in my opinion. Maybe it's necessary as Byzantium with a lot of forests around, but the civs that want a religion the most usually get a better bonus at the start (Ethiopia doesn't need it, for instance). Civs that don't care about religion have better things to spend hammers on than religion. Religion sets you so far behind early game I just don't think it's a very good strategy most of the time, despite the benefits later. I think it's probably most useful for Egypt (wonder bonus, so fewer hammers), Songhai (temple ub, so the religion can get powerful later but you may need the early boost), and Byzantium (good way for them to get a religion).
13. Great Wall - Maybe on deity or MP this is useful. I tend not to be overly scared of AI armies though, and my cities are usually pretty good. I think there are usually better things to spend hammers on.

 

[sendos]

Hi,

I would like to create BNW wonder list for dummies. I am curious to learn your opinions on them, but will start with early ones:

1. Great Library - I am in love with that one. Free tech, free library, easy way to advance to later epoch... MUST HAVE for every strategy.
2. Temple of Artemis - 10% more food in my cities, faster archer construction... Not that strong. Second rate for me, usually AI manages to beat me to it.
3. Hanging Gardens - 6 food (nice in capital), free garden.. If you are planning to spam GP from that city, and have no fresh water.... Else 2nd rate.
4. Pyramids - Free workers, faster workers, minor culture bonus... Loved that one, now just meh
5. Oracle - free social policy. Since social policies are no longer connected to cultural victory (at least not directly) - crap. But crap I love... And crap I always get.
6. Colossus - extra money per water tiles, free trade ship.. I am always building that, not sure why
7. Petra - MUST HAVE for me. I build city especially for it in the middle of desert... Use GE. After I think of it - my tactics should not evolve around that wonder... Still love it.
8. Machu Picchu - MUST HAVE, that one is REALLY good.
9. Mausoleum of Halicarnassus - MEH, althought if you play on settler, and have nothing to do... Still MEH
10. Terracotta army - MEH X 2. Although you could build TONS of units, then manage to steal that one from AI (AI loves that one) - it could be useful... Never build that one.
11. Parthenon - is there a reason to build that one?

1. Great Library is indeed overrated. I've had a couple of cases where I get the wonder but I'm still last in tech out of 12 AI players. If you're trying to get this wonder on emperor, try building it before turn 30, because I've had 2 cases where AI builds it by turn 40, and that's standard speed.
2. Temple of Artemis is good when it's combined with tradition finisher, fertility rites pantheon and plowshares belief. The main thing about this wonder is that it helps you a bit in the long term.
3. Hanging Gardens is also a bit overrated but it's good to build it in the capital anyway if you can.
4. Pyramids are still good, especially with early expansion. GE points help get other wonders.
5. Oracle is a must if you're on the piety tree. Otherwise, it's not crucial.
6. Colossus is very good if you want an extra trade route. A must build if you are Venice.
7. Petra - location, location, location.
8. Machu Piccu is excellent for rather wide empires. Wider empires = larger revenue from city connections = immunity to embargoes.
9. Mausoleum of Halicarnassus is rather situational but if you've got heaps of GP production, it helps. If you get around 20 great people over the course of the game, that's 2000 gold.
10. Terracotta army is good for early rush or if you want to defend your early expansion plans.
11. Parthenon does seem quite pointless indeed. Arguably, it could be the second worst wonder after Anglor Wat.
12. Stonehenge is good for early religion (build it and you get your religion in 40 turns tops unless you get your pantheon rather late) and GE but otherwise not so special.
13. Great Wall is a must if you're got violent warmongering neighbours. It will insulate you up to the modern era, then it's useless.

 

[Wojciech Rodzik]

We have forgotten about the MOST IMPORTANT WONDER EVER

14. Great Lighthouse - surprisingly AI priorities that one - usually hard to get even on Warlord (providing you are not trying to beeline that)

 

[Wojciech Rodzik]

Double post

 

[Syailendra]

1. Great Library is indeed overrated. I've had a couple of cases where I get the wonder but I'm still last in tech out of 12 AI players. If you're trying to get this wonder on emperor, try building it before turn 30, because I've had 2 cases where AI builds it by turn 40, and that's standard speed.

this is true, last night i lose it by one turn, some ai managed to get it on turn 27, haha, i pop pottery and writing off ruins and think that it is doable, but...
Trust me, GL is far from must get wonder, 99,99% of deity and immortal wins are done without GL.
I'm playing immortal btw.

 

[Glieze]

this is true, last night i lose it by one turn, some ai managed to get it on turn 27, haha, i pop pottery and writing off ruins and think that it is doable, but...
Trust me, GL is far from must get wonder, 99,99% of deity and immortal wins are done without GL.
I'm playing immortal btw.

On deity, the AI builds GL between turn 28-35 95% of the time. In rare occasions they build it around turn 40.

Never, ever go for GL on deity unless you plan to reroll if you don't get it.