Would anybody mind watching me for 10-20 minutes?

[WackenOpenAir]

No i dont really bribe anything.
Difference might be, i always play GOTM. They arent usually deity and even if they are, they dont put you in boxed in possitions.

If its not deity, it doesnt take very long before you outpower them economically.
Not that i wait for that though. I usually send one of my first units (scout/warrior) to steal my neighbors worker as soon as one is available and ill steal more when they have more.
Its usually emperor-immortal though.

Also, it is very rare that i dont build a city on a hill. And your city gets 50% with a unit inside under tradition.

Then, shoot the right units. While the common knowledge in any strategy game is to kill a unit completely before attacking another one, that is only what i do with their ranged units. After that, i just damage their melee units a bit so that attacking my city is suicide for them. (which is 1 shot after they have already attacked my city once)

If you have a deity start where you are boxed in little territory between agressive AIs it is different yes.
But i look on such situations as situations where i deviate from the standard approach while the standard approach is to focus on growth with minimal units. I think that is important, you want to outgrow your competition, and the approach for that is to just have enough units to be able to survive a possible attack, not building lots of units because units are supposed to be good.
What is enough units depends on the situation although up to emperor level, you definately dont need any more units than you want to defend your workers and settlers against barbs (which 2 scouts and 1 warrior can do fine if your scouts get back home, if they dont come back home, 1 or 2 archers) On immortal i think it is super rare that you will need any more than this. On deity sometimes you might i guess.

 

[danaphanous]

Yeah maybe GOTM difference then. This happens if you are competing with them for space more often. I almost always attack a neighbor and steal workers/pillage as well, but it's usually another neighbor that rushes. The victim of the early ambush usually is set back and becomes fairly weak.

I'm actually very good at war, but in my experience it won't matter how much better you are if you wait too long to produce units and they rush you properly. You have about 2-4 turns to respond depending on the population and a small city can't handle a rush the size and composition I've seen. Not without a minimum of unit support to keep them from surrounding it which is why I recommend a couple melee. Fortify adjacent to the city in defensible positions and it'll keep them from surrounding long enough for you to break the numbers and you'll survive. it also allows you to set up a 2nd or 3rd archer position behind the melee wall iso you aren't stuck with a single composite bowman in a city and blunt the attack. If you don't have any melee what the AI does in these rushes is just surround the city with the archers/siege behind on the far side. You can't get to the ranged so you are forced to bombard them but 4 hoplites attacking simultaneously with 2-3 bowshots will crumble any city very quickly in a few turns and without a castle you'll only kill a few. It doesn't take them long. If they get low on health they don't always suicide either and sometimes pillage, don't know if this is a recent AI fix but I see it a lot more often now. Anything you send to assist is usually too little too late. You can recapture the city but by then you've lost half the buildings and the population is quartered.

You fare better if you have a solid tech lead which it sounds like you usually get on your games before an AI rushes, but I typically am not that far ahead by turn 60-80 yet so it can be effective if they come this early with a decent army. This is why I've heard many Deity players that play random maps advocate bribing AI that look like they might attack to target others and keeping a larger military for deterrence. They rush even earlier on Deity sometimes even sub T50 though this is rare.

 

[sixty4half]

1-2 scouts at the start, 2 more archers somewhere in the first 100 turns when you have spare time to build or coin to buy them. Thats all you need.

Not when Bluetooth or Bismark are marching a carpet of doom at you on turn 80. And that's on Immortal, not Diety. I don't know much about GOTMs but you make them sound like they are set up where you don't have warmongers next to you. If you're not bribing wars early I just don't see how you have never had a carpet of units attacking you before turn 100.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Not when Bluetooth or Bismark are marching a carpet of doom at you on turn 80. And that's on Immortal, not Diety. I don't know much about GOTMs but you make them sound like they are set up where you don't have warmongers next to you. If you're not bribing wars early I just don't see how you have never had a carpet of units attacking you before turn 100.

They are not so much set up that you dont have warmongers next to you, but they are usually set up so that you can build 3-4 cities without extremely forward settling your neighbours. They also generally have good start positions.

I have had pretty much every AI around me in the GOTMs, none of them posed any thread at all on immortal and emperor.

 

[KingKong76]

In the first 20 turns I noticed many things you could do better. Most of them have been talked about. But lets list them here and propose alternatives.

1. Capital placement: At least move you Warrior before doing it. VERY often you will find a better spot. Things you have to look for in order (MHO) hill river / montain / making sure you will have at least 4foods and 2 hammer son turn 1 / 2 diff lux inside 2 tile from city. If you have some mining or massonaray lux (not salt tho) on a river, most of the time you want to settle right on it. If you settel on damonds for exemple, you will get 2 hammers, 2 food, and 3 golds right away!! Couple that with a wheat or a stone, and you are up for a GREAT start.

2. Unless you are playing on small continent, island or archipelago type of map, Build 2 scouts right away! Exploration is huge part of the game. Ruins, city states, early DoW to steal workers or even AI SETTLERS can be a major early edge. Know your environement, and collect gold, culture, faith and even citizens and thech on your way. Plus you free your warrior to stay close to capital and take care of Barbs. Especialy with a civ like you are playing. Getting 2-3 early Barb camps can be VERY usefull.

3. Tech: you dont have to rush Philosophie that early. At least get potery to get your shrine up and work on an early patheon and get on your way to a religion. Then you might want get archery or animal husbandary, you have to see if an archer is necessary, if not knowing where horses early are might be nice to plan your expansion. Same for bronzw working. You have to sueeze writing somwhere in the firsft 5-6 techs you deicover and then go on what you will need to improve your ressources. Then Philo and National college. Then Workshops, then University.

4. Building order First 4 for me are ALMOST always scout scout monument shrine. You get to know your map fast, get your border grow and policie fast, and you make almost sure you get a good pantheon and get at least a religion. Then it depends... sometimes Granary will be priority because you have food problems, sometime it will be a worker because you could not get one for free from AI or CS, sometimes it might be and archer cause you are strugling with barbs. I always like to get a granary before I build a settler tho. It speed the settlers up, and if you are planning on building 2 before NC, the extra 2-8 food the granary will provide depending of the ressources around your cap will definately worth the buiding time. (at 8, you prabably even save time)

5. Money: The 1st few hundreds golds you collect can be spend in 4 effective ways. (my humble opinon) Depending of your needs, buying archer might be good. You might need him to protect your workers and clean the camps around cap. Saving a bit more for a Worker can be great too. If you manage to steal workers and you can build an archer and your warrior upgraded to lancer for exemple and everything seem safe around, you might want to save for tile buying in your 1st 2 cities for 2 possible reasons. 1. Making sure AI dont get those tiles 2. The optimum city location will conflicts with the early tile your citizens will be able to work. 4. You get all of that coverd!! (rare) you can save for an early buiding in your 2nd city.

6. Policies. Just Go Tradition! WAYYY more easy to manage than any other tree. Not saying its the best, some great player will be able to demonstrate Liberty is better if you optimize the benefits, but not even close of being as easy to maxout the benefits. Then couple it with left honor, left Piety or left Patronage depending of your needs. (Esthetic and Econmy can be good to, but more complicated to optimize)

7. Dont wonder whore early. You dont need those stupid wonders. Only one you might have use for IF you dont have better things to build might be Oracle. Case can be build to justify Gardens aswel. SOMETIMES, if you can rush Physics and build Notre-Dame before turn 130 it might be a good strategy. (for Emperor and lower levels, after that its totaly not optimal/impossible)

If you manage to do more or less all of this, it will change you Civ5 player's life!
It might not be the optimal Diety strategy, but hey, you will CRUSH KING, and very soon Emperor. Then, you will have to addapt.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

. Unless you are playing on small continent, island or archipelago type of map, Build 2 scouts right away!
Building order First 4 for me are ALMOST always scout scout monument shrine.

My policy = no scouts on archipel, 1 scout on continents, 2 scouts on pangea. On higher levels i feel less reason to build them than on lower levels because the goody huts are gone before your second scout gets out anyway.
Monuments are a necessity for liberty and proferably after 1 scout, not 2. Even on pangea you might build the monument between scouts.
For tradition a monument is a "very nice to have" but no necessity if you dont find any culture from early huts, almost a waste of hammers if you do find culture. (which is super common)
Shrine i find hard to say. I often totally ignore religion or im happy to pick up a pantheon later if it still happens to be available. Finding faith from huts is of course a very nice alternative to building shrines
On deity i believe few players bother with shrines at all because your chances to get a religion are very slim even if you build it early.

3. Tech: you dont have to rush Philosophie that early. .... Then Workshops, then University.

The right time to get philosophy is when your "last" settled town can finish its library. At least in Tradition you go 3 or 4 city NC. The last city usually starts the library right after founding it, all the rest aims to finish its library by the time the last/slowest finishes it. Have philo done at the same time so your capital can proceed right on with the NC.
Under tradition universities usually come before workshops. I believe in liberty and multiplayer it can be different.
I can also understand the workshop first idea from players who dont care about their victory date but prefer to build a strong production base at the cost of delayed education. If you do care about winning fast though, any game that relies on a research goal is mostly decided by when you build universities and start gathering GPP.

7. Dont wonder whore early. You dont need those stupid wonders. Only one you might have use for IF you dont have better things to build might be Oracle. Case can be build to justify Gardens aswel. SOMETIMES, if you can rush Physics and build Notre-Dame before turn 130 it might be a good strategy. (for Emperor and lower levels, after that its totaly not optimal/impossible)

Were not that opposed to wonders in the GOTMs.
On deity indeed your chances for ToA or Lib might be a problem and/or the investment is just too big to build it before turn 35-40ish as that is when you still want to be building settlers. Lower difficulties often no problem though.

Great library is very popular because you need the library anyway so its got reduced cost. The free tech allows you to get quickly get philo for that super important NC and cascade in those even more important universities. (education date is very much the most important milestone for many games)
ToA is by most considered the best wonder in the game. (Depending on your games circumstances, it is often much stronger than hanging gardens)
Petra is super OP in the right spot but that situational obviously. Just be on the lookout, as soon as you see a bunch of desert hills near a river or with resources on them, you should start considering settling there and building petra.

Notre Dame is an option if needed. (not needed if you can ally 2 mercantile CSes who have 2 luxes each)
Great Lighthouse in archipelago games.
Oracle is nice if its not gone by renaissance to get that rationalism going.

Thats pretty much it.

 

[KingKong76]

You are totaly right. That said, its bad habbits to take if your goal is to eventualy beat Immortal+.
One of the reasons I struggled to beat Immortal was because of the wonder whoring habbits I took on King and Emperor. To precise my toughtw, what I'm saying is that you can pick one or 2 just to spice up your game, but building like 4-5 even 6 ancient/classical era wonders is not a good idea even if its possible to do so and still beat the game.

On the other end, if your goal is really to stay Emperor and under, and it totaly suits your personal entertainement goals, yeah buidng all the cool wonders is awesome!! hahaha

 

[danaphanous]

My policy = no scouts on archipel, 1 scout on continents, 2 scouts on pangea. On higher levels i feel less reason to build them than on lower levels because the goody huts are gone before your second scout gets out anyway.
...
I can also understand the workshop first idea from players who dont care about their victory date but prefer to build a strong production base at the cost of delayed education. If you do care about winning fast though, any game that relies on a research goal is mostly decided by when you build universities and start gathering GPP.

This is good advice if you know your map type. Incidentally, this is precisely the reason that I check random maps. I think the game is too easy and predictable if I know what kind of map I have to work with and can plan exactly what I'll do before I start. You learn to think on your feet a bit better if you have no idea what civs or map type you are facing and it makes each game a little more unique. I usually crank out one scout regardless and try to guess based on the way the terrain is looking whether a second is worth it. If it is looking like pangaea I sometimes build a late third scout but only after the monument or shrine depending on my tree/strategy. I usually build the shrine just for the chance to get the religion. All the faith added up from the early build date will at least mean an early purchase later if I lose--and some games you get lucky and get to found. Since it's all RNG I think this is best policy because a religion or pantheon can make a strong difference.

To clarify about the workshop thing: it's not so much that we're choosing to sacrifice a fast win, it's that the workshop first route is a more solid choice for everything else you need at the time. Let me put it in perspective:

With a relatively wide empire (8-12 cities) you have a lot of newer little cities at the time of this choice that aren't growing fast at this time waiting on their aqueducts, mills, and trying to build their colloseums and circuses, and some haven't even gotten to libraries yet. Even if I rushed universities I wouldn't have the gold to buy more then 2 of them and the majority of cities will be slow building them. Also, due to the tiny population the effect is not that great everywhere but a few core cities and most places I can't run specialists. If I rush universities first my cities' production continues to suffer and I inevitably get far behind on my building list. If I go for worshops first I pass aqueducts on the way (which I don't have because I'm liberty) and can build them. then workshop. Then every building after that is about 20% cheaper effectively in the small cities. The ones missing colloseums build them quickly and can start growing and they grow fast due to the aqueducts, and my science, as a result isn't that bad and is steadily going up. Now I go for universities getting them maybe 15-20 turns slower then I could beelining but I can build universities in the small cities much faster now and have had time to finish aqueducts/workshops/mills/etc and have grown a bit in the newer cities. Sure it's slower, but not as slow as you think. I get universities finished throughout the empire much faster after education this route and the cities are nearer to a population where it makes a bigger difference and they could run a specialist. Whereas the beelining universities route I stagnate on growth and fall behind on buildings and am waiting dozens of turns to finish them. It's not just the workshops, you want aqueducts first before universities so your cities can start rapidly growing and aqueducts are only 1-2 techs from workshops so you might as well get both. I do miss the university boost in my capital by about 15-20 turns but this is less significant then in a tradition game because my capital is smaller due to cranking out 10 settlers. In tradition beelining education makes sense because your cities are bigger (don't need workshops to be competitive) and got free aqueducts ages ago.

This is the rationale. It's not as simple as choosing slower science because the workshop route sets you up to build those universities quicker, and gets your little cities growing faster due to faster buildings from then on. I find doing it in this order results in a much quicker infrastructure and empire growth phase which later results in better science and faster ability to run the specialist slots in the universities. I don't know if in the end it is slower on rate or not, but it feels like a better move, results in a faster midgame boost, and more importantly, keeps you up on military tech so the AI aren't invading your weak lands because you ignored it. remmber on a wide empire game the AI is just waiting for you to be careless and invade you with huge armies. They are very jealous of your big lands so workshop route is definitely the safer and more practical play. It is better in nearly every way.

If your gamble paid off and you could build universities quicker and didn't get invaded going unis first might result in a slightly faster finish time but it wouldn't be by much because you'd delayed aqueducts, infrastructure and the midgame growth phase your empire needs to start being tech competitive. An exception might be if you could somehow save like 3000 gold to cash buy loads of universities. Then beelining it would make sense as you would get them quickly but many cities are gonna take 20 or more turns to build them this early if you playing a side game and doing so puts them behind since they desperately need other buildings to grow better and bring in happiness.

 

[KingKong76]

No i dont really bribe anything.
Difference might be, i always play GOTM. They arent usually deity and even if they are, they dont put you in boxed in possitions.

If its not deity, it doesnt take very long before you outpower them economically.
Not that i wait for that though. I usually send one of my first units (scout/warrior) to steal my neighbors worker as soon as one is available and ill steal more when they have more.
Its usually emperor-immortal though.

Also, it is very rare that i dont build a city on a hill. And your city gets 50% with a unit inside under tradition.

Then, shoot the right units. While the common knowledge in any strategy game is to kill a unit completely before attacking another one, that is only what i do with their ranged units. After that, i just damage their melee units a bit so that attacking my city is suicide for them. (which is 1 shot after they have already attacked my city once)

If you have a deity start where you are boxed in little territory between agressive AIs it is different yes.
But i look on such situations as situations where i deviate from the standard approach while the standard approach is to focus on growth with minimal units. I think that is important, you want to outgrow your competition, and the approach for that is to just have enough units to be able to survive a possible attack, not building lots of units because units are supposed to be good.
What is enough units depends on the situation although up to emperor level, you definately dont need any more units than you want to defend your workers and settlers against barbs (which 2 scouts and 1 warrior can do fine if your scouts get back home, if they dont come back home, 1 or 2 archers) On immortal i think it is super rare that you will need any more than this. On deity sometimes you might i guess.

Do you play with raging barbarians?
On diety I dont yet but I was on immortal and emperor and if you do, usaualy you will need your warrior and an archer or 2 in addition to your returning scouts. I will build or buy an additional miitary unit for sure if both scouts dont come back.

Or maybe Im just not efficient enough to do it with only my warrior and 2 scouts and I'm making logitic mistakes.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Ill answer to the barbs with this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqg1jd39ON8

I dont have much of an answer to dana, he seems to play a different game than I.

With a relatively wide empire (8-12 cities)

What i can answer dana is: "I don't know if in the end it is slower on rate or not".
Turn 100 education is the benchmark. Sometimes its not as good a start and its 110, sometimes its something outstanding and its 90. Building universities normally adds another 10 turns on average(less in capital, more in slowtown). So 110 universities.
That is with the standard 4 city NC tradition approach. I have never yet seen a civ game with 8-12 founded city. In my world, 4 is standard, 6-7 is "holy cows look at that start area ! we can actually use liberty here !".

 

[gobbledydook]

I'm guessing you usually bribe them to keep them off your back early then? Because this is not my experience if I don't do this. A military of only 2-3 archers in my games that I've played lately would be like asking to get DOWs from multiple fronts. I've been playing a string of games with no early war bribing to watch the AI do their thing unaffected. On immortal they regularly rush early even when you have a moderate military larger then you describe. I've seen France and Greece produce a 15 unit army and rush border cities between T60-80 on this level and your description of 2-3 archers was not enough to push them back either. I had more then this even, but it didn't help when the carpet could take out your city in a short 3 turns. In fact even buying walls wasn't always enough to halt such rushes. So I definitely build a couple more units then 2 archers now. Have you tried bombarding some of the special units like hoplites with archers lol? It does hardly anything. Usually 3-4 archers and 2 melee minimum for safety imo and an early walls on the city closest to AI that are accumulating military and look like they might try this rush. Otherwise you are taking a definite risk. Anyway, we've had these discussions before, you go for time I go for what is most likely to win me the game. Risking it all with a puny military of 2 archers when I see neighbors building up is not a good plan in my opinion.

To clarify, I think the AI also sucks at war, but early war against relatively low-pop cities without walls they don't need to do that well. They just need to carpet in, surrounding the city, and take it down in 2-3 turns with melee spam. Sure I can recapture, but it sets me back more turns then I gained skimping on a proper defense force. I was pretty happy to see these rushes. the AI had good composition (a lot of composite bows in the back) and at least 6 melee in the front. It was a perfect ancient city-taking force and I think the AI has improved since the earliest BNW patches because they pillaged and withdrew more too. Greece in particular pillaged my iron and horses so I couldn't build more advanced units. That might've been a fluke but it made me happy to see them playing smartly for once. They still have no idea how to fight with modern units though...

When people suggest you build a couple archers, it's mostly for dealing with barbarians, completing city state quests, and the like. Two or three archers is obviously not sufficient to hold an early AI rush at high levels. France and Greece are two of the most early warmonging civs in the game, you should always expect them to build an army and rush someone. Either you bribe them to rush someone else, or you kill them before they build their army.

 

[KingKong76]

Ill answer to the barbs with this vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqg1jd39ON8

Holly cow!!
That explain why I tought I needed an archer or 2... Its because I never let them ''ruin my game''!
I never really complained that they ruined my game, cause it simply never happened. I was using raging barb from like my 3rd or 4th game ever since I was a bir bored by the lack of action in the first 20 to 100 turns in the fisrt few levels.
But since, I was under the impression that they would do more harm than what they can if I let them spawn, I was just hunting them like my life was depending on their death.

From what I can see here, its quiet the opposite. They cant really harm you and they will actually help you doing your dirty work: stealing workers you might need for tile improuvement or influence toward CS, preventing the AI to steal city building spots from you cause they will be scared to walk through a heavy barbarian controled zone, etc.

The reason why I needed archers is because I was actualy trying to get a rid of camps asap. Bad idea apparently.

The fact I was trying to max explore the map before returning my scouts is a major factor aswel.

Thanks for that video, Im pretty sure I'm a better player already.

 

[danaphanous]

I dont have much of an answer to dana, he seems to play a different game than I.

What i can answer dana is: "I don't know if in the end it is slower on rate or not".
Turn 100 education is the benchmark. Sometimes its not as good a start and its 110, sometimes its something outstanding and its 90. Building universities normally adds another 10 turns on average(less in capital, more in slowtown). So 110 universities.
That is with the standard 4 city NC tradition approach. I have never yet seen a civ game with 8-12 founded city. In my world, 4 is standard, 6-7 is "holy cows look at that start area ! we can actually use liberty here !".

Nice barb video, I love playing raging barbs it's my favorite!

That university time is a bit faster then I can reach going wide. What I aim for with a solid, larger empire is something like:

8 cities: standard
10 cities: large
12+ cities: huge

That is why I say 8-12. It's unlikely I'll get over 8 on standard size though. The reason I aim so high in city number is if you are going to go wide you have to go all-out in my opinion. a 6-city liberty game will be inferior to tradition. If you want a better wide empire game you want to about double or more the number of tradition cities--this is when the tenets and trees that benefit wide empires work best and can make it a competitive game comparable to my own tradition runs (which clearly aren't as fast as yours). If I can't manage at least 8 cities on a standard/liberty game I'll take a few by force probably just so I know I'm getting good benefits from my policy choices. I'll still never beat you on science but I'll do quite well by the other metrics and still win sub-300 easily which is often enough for Deity level play.

As for university timing, I am still figuring out what that is. Wide games are so varied!

Here's an example game with Celts I'm actually playing right now. The times aren't bad, but I played suboptimally for sure. I could easily shave off 20 turns at least but this game is already a solid win as the AI are falling behind on science. I got universities up in all cities by T150 but I think I can do it faster now that I have a better feel for things. This was a pure experiment game and I'm just now thinking about optimal games and times after talking to you and seeing GOTM. Clearly I need to get used to it if I want to compete.

I have universities in all cities, workshop in all but 1, and finishing the last few aqueducts, going for ceilidh halls after that and turning all trade routes to growth as my happiness is so high I can just grow everything now (and haven't even built a single Ceilidh hall yet!). A good economy. Great culture and am wrapping up my 2nd tree soon. Obviously a nice religion to support the empire in happiness. My science goes up every turn and is climbing very rapidly and I should be able to go full max growth straight till order now. This is the result of the aqueduct/workshop synergy early and I wish I'd beelined it as I wandered around a bit but this was a test game.

This game is supported by huge/pangaea but as you can see with my happiness I could do this on smaller maps easily minus maybe 2 cities per difficulty level. I have way too much. I invested heavily in happiness from religion and picked up a few helpful wonders as well. There are many choices you can make that are different but facilitate playing on such a large scale. My policy choices were: full liberty, 1 point in patronage, open commerce, open rationalism, finish commerce, then I'll go order. I kept my economy very good (and it's going up every turn too) so I can cash buy and get my empire up quicker. This is the main benefit of commerce is the extra cash and happiness. Still deciding exactly what the most optimal way to mix rationalism/commerce is but I already made a mistake not picking the science form specialists earlier. I underestimated my happiness and growth potential and that science could be a lot higher if switched over to rationalism after the first 2 points in commerce instead of trying for that +2 happiness for luxuries tenet at the end (which I obviously don't need). But I was focused on the economic/happiness game this game.

May replay and see how fast I can win just for comparison: things I could have done better were beelining workshops/aqueducts, immediately, switching to growth routes sooner, and building a larger workforce. I didn't realize how well my new strategy for infinite happiness would play out but I know now! I'm sitting at 33 right now prior ceilidh halls so I can get at least 6 more population in every city even without the boost from commerce. My happiness keeps randomly going up, I think it might be due to starting to ally/friend CS across the world since my empire is so strong (they are impressed) and my passively spreading religion which is becoming a wildfire with like 40 cities following it. Didn't build a single missionary either! This and I started next to 2 religious neigbors lol. They've been fighting my pressure like mad but wasting all their propets on their own cities which flip back to my religion in like 30 turns lol.

Since I plan to back up a few dozen turns to actually try to play this a bit more optimally (for science!) you guys have any suggestions for me? Obviously I should put my huge economy into allying maritime states which I didn't do this first time through and friending the mercantile. I also can beeline aqueducts, then workshops, then universities for the best compound effect (my opinion). Then put 2 points into commerce to get the gold boosts, then switch to rationalism and put 4 points, then order, then finish commerce? The reason I chose commerce before rationalism is not only because of the gold which let me buy a lot more buildings (including science and growth ones) but because I was getting tenets too fast and rationalism wasn't available. I actually had to open patronage too because medieval wasn't around when I finished liberty as well.