Would you like 4UC modmod to be integrated to the VP?

[CppMaster]

Considering new majority vote threshold it'll be easier to pass it.
Recent Research proved that the modmod doesn't distrubt the balance. In fact, it improves it a bit! And of course, it makes the game more interesting by adding new components (duh!), so what's not to like?

Note: this is not an official VP proposal, it's just checking opinion of the community. Modders suggested that the integration would have to be done separately, because of the scope of changes.

 

[Better Buff Turtle ship]

AI only balance and human playing balance is different (especially on warmonger). So we need more data.

 

[rkkn]

why doesn't the "Yes!" option have a paranthetical after it? This poll is biased!

 

[Recursive]

I'm going to be doing an official vote on this shortly (next month) with a lot more information.

The poll options make it a leading question so I'm throwing out these results.

 

[msw1]

I really would like it to be. My opinions on the mod balance are probably a little out of touch because I've used 4UC for years, and can't imagine ever playing without it. Would be nice if we were all on the same page.

 

[4CV]

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: "Perfection is not achieved when nothing more can be added, but when nothing more can be left out." He was right.

 

[CppMaster]

AI only balance and human playing balance is different (especially on warmonger). So we need more data.

How would we collect that?

why doesn't the "Yes!" option have a paranthetical after it? This poll is biased!

I was going to add it for consistency, but can't find the poll now. Anyway, it had 70% votes on *yes* last time I checked.

I'm going to be doing an official vote on this shortly (next month) with a lot more information.

Cool!

The poll options make it a leading question so I'm throwing out these results.

What do you mean?

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: "Perfection is not achieved when nothing more can be added, but when nothing more can be left out." He was right.

He would probably make only one Civ, to make the game more "perfect"

 

[Recursive]

What do you mean?

Yes!
Maybe (why not?)
No (why not?)

Biases towards a 'yes' answer because a justification is only requested if the vote is no.

Regardless though, as there's gonna be a vote next month, I don't think this second poll is necessary, nor do I want it muddying the waters compared to the voting thread that'll have all the information for a more informed decision.

 

[CppMaster]

Yeah, should have edition it with:
Yes! (What do you like the most?)
Maybe (In which condition?)
No (Why not?)

Didn't do that initially, because it was obvious to me why would someone would like to intergrate it. I did give reasons myself.

Also, it's completely fine to vote No without any justification. People did it without any problem.

 

[JNZS13]

so I'm throwing out these results

WTF?? Who are you? Kim Jong Un? What's the problem with a user creating an unofficial pool for people on the forum to vote? Isn't this a community? In the days of the original creator of this patch, this place was far more different. Exactly because of these and other things, which many people no longer have an opinion on or participate in anything, leave it to the MAGIcians. You can delete my post, or my account, i don't care.

 

[CppMaster]

Calling @Kim Dong Un

 

[Zhao Yun]

AI only balance and human playing balance is different (especially on warmonger). So we need more data.

Lone voice of reason, I salute you. Haven't seen anything or anybody evaluating when the 3rd/4th come into the game and how strong they are. Just take Babylon for example, you get all components super early.

 

[pineappledan]

We have >3000 comments on the mod's page. Many players have posted feedback and playthrough information over all that time.

I can assure you that people have given feedback on Babylon's kit. I can also assure you that despite their early unlocks the power of their new components grows considerably in the later eras. We were very conscious when designing Babylon to make sure their components scaled in power, rather than creating an early power spike; this should be evident if you look at their abilities.

What's the problem with a user creating an unofficial pool for people on the forum to vote?

It was maybe a bit untoward to just shut it down, but Recursive was clear we have already got the ball rolling on an integration conversation.

I am trying to get the documentation, permissions, and designs of the extra components into a form that can be presented to the community properly. A lot has changed in the last few versions of the mod and lots of things are out of date or not working at their best. I personally do not want this conversation going forward too much before I have had a chance to polish the mod and prepare it for compatibility with all of the things that are going to have to change now that Congress 7 has closed.

 

[CppMaster]

Lone voice of reason, I salute you. Haven't seen anything or anybody evaluating when the 3rd/4th come into the game and how strong they are. Just take Babylon for example, you get all components super early.

All people evaluating their games would be very subjective and nowhere near the amount of data in the AI research. It's just not feasible.

Base VP have the exact problem. A civ can be both balanced in the hands of AI and OP in the hands of a player. Balance in AI is sufficient for me, because a player influences civ power very much anyway and there will be a big variation between players.

If we don't have sufficient data for civ human performance then it cannot really be used as an argument against or in favor of the integration.

Also, with the modmod integrated, we will have more data and workforce to balance it.

 

[Recursive]

WTF?? Who are you? Kim Jong Un? What's the problem with a user creating an unofficial pool for people on the forum to vote? Isn't this a community? In the days of the original creator of this patch, this place was far more different. Exactly because of these and other things, which many people no longer have an opinion on or participate in anything, leave it to the MAGIcians. You can delete my post, or my account, i don't care.

The VP Congress is my greatest dictatorial achievement yet. With my control over the game's balance consolidated, I shall now plot how to rule the world! That's why all of the proposals have been mine and the things I wanted have always passed, and I've vetoed everything I didn't agree with...oh wait, hmm, I need to be doing a better job of it.

I think this criticism is rather silly, honestly, considering that (with no disrespect to Gazebo) he made most of the balance judgement calls himself, which was a difficult and contentious job, and didn't involve nearly as much community participation in the process. I'll also note that the VP Congress system was created with his approval.

We have a process for making balance changes now, and this is a voting thread in disguise, not to mention a biased one.

No Proposals Outside of VP Congress
Because we now have a formal system for proposing changes to the mod, it shall be forbidden to post proposals to make a change on the Community Patch Project forums outside of the VP Congress Process.

Other polls (for instance, to measure what people think of a current mechanic, or to consider potential options for a proposal) are permitted.

Posting discussion/feedback threads is still okay, of course.

As a result of @CppMaster's suggestion during Session #7, we are in the process of preparing for a 4UC integration vote next month in which the community will be a lot more informed as to what exactly is being integrated (especially because there will likely be changes, and permission is being requested to use modders' assets). This poll here was permitted because it wasn't a vote on integration.

After feedback that the 75% voting threshold was too harsh, I'm working on a vote this month (coming out shortly) to try to come up with a community consensus on what the threshold should be, after assessing people's preferences in (7-88). The same was also done for feedback that the VP Congress sessions were too frequent, which resulted in the current quarterly schedule, and the MAGI system was created specifically so that I'm not making all the judgement calls myself.

Prior to the beginning of the VP Congress, there were a lot of people posting balance polls constantly and it was resulting in burnout and complaints about how much voting there was, and not all of it got integrated despite community feedback, which made people feel like their votes were pointless.

You're welcome to disagree, but my actions are aimed at increasing democracy not decreasing it. This involves some level of executive oversight over how the process is conducted, but my goal here is not to silence community voices. It is aimed at making sure the voting is fair, that people are informed about the decision they're making, and that the changes people vote for are ones that can actually happen.

 

[pineappledan]

It's important to remember that in a human player game, 7 of the 8 other players are still AI. The vast majority of the action, even with a human present, is happening between two NPCs.

Thus, looking at AI-only games is still quite relevant to human games.

 

[Recursive]

All people evaluating their games would be very subjective and nowhere near the amount of data in the AI research. It's just not feasible.

Base VP have the exact problem. A civ can be both balanced in the hands of AI and OP in the hands of a player. Balance in AI is sufficient for me, because a player influences civ power very much anyway and there will be a big variation between players.

If we don't have sufficient data for civ human performance then it cannot really be used as an argument against or in favor of the integration.

Also, with the modmod integrated, we will have more data and workforce to balance it.

Data from AI testing in combination with creating skilled AI that knows how to use its tools and making changes based on human feedback through community consensus is about the best we can hope for in terms of fair balancing, I think.

 

[pineappledan]

So we need more data

I would contend we have never had more data for any decision before. 4UC has been published for 6 years, as of last month, and is thoroughly playtested.

Vern has run a total of 1300 test games and produced extensive statistics on all sorts of metrics, even producing a formal paper on the subject. 650 with and 650 without 4UC. Standard 8 players, so that’s 10,400 data points.

I don’t think we have a lack of data, we have a lack of talking.

There has been very little engagement on the threads Vern has set up for these comparisons, if you have questions you are more than welcome to get a conversation going in that thread. I’d love to see a little more active conversation around Vern’s work

 

[FinMc]

The VP Congress is my greatest dictatorial achievement yet. With my control over the game's balance consolidated, I shall now plot how to rule the world! That's why all of the proposals have been mine and the things I wanted have always passed, and I've vetoed everything I didn't agree with...oh wait, hmm, I need to be doing a better job of it.

I think this criticism is rather silly, honestly, considering that (with no disrespect to Gazebo) he made most of the balance judgement calls himself, which was a difficult and contentious job, and didn't involve nearly as much community participation in the process. I'll also note that the VP Congress system was created with his approval.

We have a process for making balance changes now, and this is a voting thread in disguise, not to mention a biased one.


As a result of @CppMaster's suggestion during Session #7, we are in the process of preparing for a 4UC integration vote next month in which the community will be a lot more informed as to what exactly is being integrated (especially because there will likely be changes, and permission is being requested to use modders' assets). This poll here was permitted because it wasn't a vote on integration.

After feedback that the 75% voting threshold was too harsh, I'm working on a vote this month (coming out shortly) to try to come up with a community consensus on what the threshold should be, after assessing people's preferences in (7-88). The same was also done for feedback that the VP Congress sessions were too frequent, which resulted in the current quarterly schedule, and the MAGI system was created specifically so that I'm not making all the judgement calls myself.

Prior to the beginning of the VP Congress, there were a lot of people posting balance polls constantly and it was resulting in burnout and complaints about how much voting there was, and not all of it got integrated despite community feedback, which made people feel like their votes were pointless.

You're welcome to disagree, but my actions are aimed at increasing democracy not decreasing it. This involves some level of executive oversight over how the process is conducted, but my goal here is not to silence community voices. It is aimed at making sure the voting is fair, that people are informed about the decision they're making, and that the changes people vote for are ones that can actually happen.

Thank you so much for all your work on this incredible mod

 

[CppMaster]

I don’t think we have a lack of data, we have a lack of talking.

There has been very little engagement on the threads Vern has set up for these comparisons, if you have questions you are more than welcome to get a conversation going in that thread. I’d love to see a little more active conversation around Vern’s work

I'd assume that a lack of conversation is a lack of concern. It's not like people will say: "Huh, this civ is very well balanced. Let's discuss that!". Discussing not balanced things is more natural, because someone may state what is OP/UP and how it could be changed.