WWII Europe: Small, Fast & Beautiful for IV - Discussion & Creation Diary

After reading about both the Iranian & Iraqi histories, I noticed a few things of importance:
"During World War II, Iran was a vital link in the Allied supply line for lend-lease supplies to the Soviet Union. In August, 1941, British and Indian forces from Iraq and Soviet forces from the north occupied Iran."
&
"In May 1941, four Iraqi nationalist army generals ("the Golden Square") overthrew the regime of the Regent and installed Rashid Ali as Prime Minister ... they collaborated with Nazi German intelligence units and eventually accepted military assistance from Germany."

But because neither event had a really serious impact: the occupation of Iran was simply a safeguarding act & the new Iraqi government wasn't any match for the British:
"The new Iraqi government many days after moved substantial ground forces to the plateau overlooking the large RAF base at Habbaniya. The Iraqis when they arrived in the area of the base demanded that the British not move any troops or aircraft in or out of the base. The British responded first with a demand that the Iraqis leave the area and then launched an attack without any further warning on the morning of May 2. The base had a force of 96 mostly obsolete (but still superior to the Iraqi Air Force) aircraft immediately available. Many, but not all of the aircraft were trainers. The British had 2200 troops to defend the base and 12 armoured cars. By the second day of fighting, a few more Blenheim fighter bombers arrived.
With assistance from the ground forces at the base, and the Iraqi levies (Iraqi troops raised by the British), the Iraqi troops were forced back to Falluja, the air battle was taken to the remaining Iraqi airforces bases. Habbaniya had essentially lifted the siege with its own resources. Once the reinforcements (British, Palestine, and Arab Legion) arrived in two columns (Habforce and KingCol) across the desert from Palestine and TransJordan, the Iraqi army was cleared from Falluja and pursued along the river valley to Baghdad, which fell within a week with the nominal restoration of the Regent and the pro-British government"

What they should do though is stop all reinforcements of Indians & ANZAC for a while.
 
Infinit1 said:
Feet, can you please post that map for download?
Click to expand...

Heh, not yet, it's actually going to be part of my own full mod of Civ4 but no public release for a while yet. :) You'll just have to watch this space. I only posted that i'd made to show that you can create maps outside of the scale paasky mentioned. SPECS: A64 3.2 GF6800 1GB RAM :)
 
I started to edit the unit xml's, and apparently they are closely nit together... I deleted the settler, ancient & medieval units, etc and now it gives atleast 50 errors at startup! :eek:

Better start going over everything now...
 
Updated the .mm & .html again. This time it has a few scripts & some important dates to remember. I'll also be scripting, either as a simple notice or something that happens, everything that happened outside of europe from here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Second_World_War
Well, maybe not everything, but quite a lot anyway.

Also, I get a few weird "Tag: UNITCLASS_*unit* in Info class was incorrect" errors, there shouldn't be any reason for them...
 
Hey Paasky, i tried to reskin more units but i simply cant get the quality and detail i demand from myself, im getting pretty good at adding units though so if you want i can help you with that.

Did you add the UNITCLASS_*unit* in both \xml\units\CIV4UnitClassInfos.xml & \xml\units\CIV4UnitInfos.xml?
 
Yes. It gives them (2-3 times) for L_SUB, H_SUB, L_AA, L_ARTY, to name a few. Maybe the names are too short?

Also, civ itself (ingame while loading the map) says that civ4formationinfos could not be loaded. Perhaps thats because it doesn't have the new units I've created?

I can PM you the units, right now they need stats.
 
I checked your ideas and your scenario is very promising. I'm actually thinking about a mod too on the same time frame and scale: WWII Europe only. Perhaps we could exchange/collaborate some ideas/concepts.

I wonder: why create so much diversity in unit type instead of using the promotion system? Are you sure more unit type is really better?

For instance, create an infantry unit and the promotion indicates if its a marine, paratrooper, regular GI, moutain infantry, engineer, etc...

Same thing for tank: regular tank, anti-tank, engineer/amphibious tank, etc...

Then create different version for each unit type 1939, 1941, 1943 where the basic stats are adjusted due to technological and doctrine breakthrough.

Based on what I saw in your document, you intend to use promotion as doctrine. That's an interesting idea though.

Do you know if promotion can be linked to technology? For example, combat II is only available when technology X is researched?

I like your ideas for city building for each unit type. That's more realistic (and cool!).
 
DarthCycle said:
I checked your ideas and your scenario is very promising. I'm actually thinking about a mod too on the same time frame and scale: WWII Europe only. Perhaps we could exchange/collaborate some ideas/concepts.
Click to expand...
Sure, 1 good mod is always better than 2 bad ones ;)

I wonder: why create so much diversity in unit type instead of using the promotion system? Are you sure more unit type is really better?

For instance, create an infantry unit and the promotion indicates if its a marine, paratrooper, regular GI, moutain infantry, engineer, etc...

Same thing for tank: regular tank, anti-tank, engineer/amphibious tank, etc...

Then create different version for each unit type 1939, 1941, 1943 where the basic stats are adjusted due to technological and doctrine breakthrough.
Click to expand...
For the infantry, that could work, but as for tanks, they were completely different models. I plan to give them promotions (still working on the list) but not so that a medium tank could become better vs tanks than a tank destroyer. Maybe quite close (30-10%) but not as good.

Based on what I saw in your document, you intend to use promotion as doctrine. That's an interesting idea though.

Do you know if promotion can be linked to technology? For example, combat II is only available when technology X is researched?
Click to expand...
If it isn't possible (easily enough :p) it'll upgrade (ex: AT-inf)

I like your ideas for city building for each unit type. That's more realistic (and cool!).
Click to expand...
To build any kind of tank, you need a tank factory (duh?) To give it more XP, you'll need a training ground (again, duh?). So if they are destroyed (Allied bombing campaign) you can't make more tanks. Simple, yet it creates a whole new meaning for bombardement. Same thing with inf, ships & aircraft.

Oh yeah, got the errors sorted out: I had named them _sub & _submarine in different files. And the rest were typos too. :blush:
 
Do we still have the limitation that a unit can only be upgraded to one other unit or do we have more than one choice now for the upgrade?

I only have experience with the early tech so far in Civ IV.
 
Paasky said:
But because neither event had a really serious impact: the occupation of Iran was simply a safeguarding act & the new Iraqi government wasn't any match for the British:
Click to expand...

But it could have had a serious impact had events turned out differently. The Germans seriously considered sending the Iraqis or Iranians air support from bases in Syria (Vichy French) or Crete (I forget which).

So what if the Germans had kicked the British out of Egypt and Palestine by 1940 or 1941? This could well have happened. In that case Iraq and Iran would have been connected by land to Axis-controlled territory. Then such events would have seen serious fighting with German forces.

Alternatively, what if Turkey had joined the Axis or had been occupied? Or what if the Germans had fully occupied the Caucasus by the end of 1941 or 1942? Once more, the Axis would have had a land connection with Iraq and Iran.

Also, what if the Iraqi or Iranian resistance had been more effective? Then they might have tied up Allied forces for a while.

On the Atlantic, it may be worth mentioning that the Germans had some major U-boat operations off the American ccoast and in the Caribbean but this may not work out due to the scale of the map. One could cosnider adding a distorted East Coast in the map, as in the Civ II WWII map. Or it may be a better option to simply give the Allies free cargo ships with units at the west end of the atlantic every few turns. Then the Allied player would need to safely bring the transports to Britain over u-boat infested waters. The problem with this may be that the Allies then wouldn't have bases at the western end of the atlantic from which to base air attacks on u-boats or in which to repair ships.

On another note, how can the importance of the Suez canal be simulated? Since a restricted Europe map doesn't have too many transport ships to move across it, it can be difficult to simulate. In previous civ games it was done with a wonder. So it may be worth considering either a wonder or creating transport ships that have to be sent across the Suez canal. Another possibility would be to let it contain a wonder that provides free warships every other turn. So if the Alies own it, they get warships to help them ferry the transports. If the Axis take it, it helps them stop the flow of Allied transports. This may alos work for Gibraltar.
 
From a design philosophy, I think it is important that you clarify the unit scale. For instance, does an infantry unit represent a division or a regiment?

This has important design consequences, IMO:

1) At the division level, an infantry unit is composed of (usually): 1-3 infantry regiments, 0-1 artillery regiment and n support battalion (MP,HQ,Logistics,etc...)

2) At the regiment level, an infantry unit is just composed of infantry.

With this level, you can justify the existence of separate unit for artillery, tank, various infantry type, etc...

This also has repercussion on the upgrade path of units.

At the division level, it makes no sense for an armored division (say German PzIII) to be upgradable to Anti-tank or assault gun configuration since these are reflected at the regiment level, not the division. If the division is an armor unit, it should upgrade to another type of armor unit.In this example, an PzIII armor division should be upgradable to Pz IV. This would reflect the overhaul of the division.

At the regiment level, a PzIII can be upgraded into either an assault gun or an anti-tank. It cannot however upgrade into a PzIV (since those are different chassis type).

Chosing the scale of the unit can also help clarify the role of promotion.

At the division level, promotion could reflect the attachement of regiment. Like adding an extra engineer, anti-tank or artillery regiment/brigade to the division.

At the regiment level, promotion could reflect tactics/doctrine and the occasional specialized company.
 
I've done some research regarding U-boats so here are some possible upgrade paths.

The first u-boats were Diesel-Electrics, similar to WWI u-boats. They spent most of the time on the surface. In the wolf-pack tactics they attacked surfaced at night. They only submerged for daylight attacks or when evading enemies.

When surfaced they could travel quite quickly. When submegred they could only travel very slowly and thus had an extremely limited range. For instance, when surfaced the Type VIIC had a speed of 17.7 knots and a range of 8500 miles. When submerged it had a maximum (and inefficient) speed of 7.6 knots and a range of only 80 miles.

This had important implications. If a u-boat attacked, the allies knew that it had to come back up for air within an 80-mile radius of the attack.

The allies used aircraft to hunt for the surfaced u-boats. But the u-boats usually managed to submerge before the aircraft could attack. The critical development was that of putting radar on aircraft. Now the allied planes could spot u-boats long before the u-boats could spot the planes. The allies started to hit the u-boats before they had time to submerge. This is what defeated the U-boats. Most u-boats were sunk by aircraft.

In response the germans developed some technologies. They developed the snorkel, which allowed u-boats to recharge the batteries while submerged. The snorkel produced a radar signature but it was greatly reduced and they were at least already submerged. They also developed radar detectors and anti-radar coatings.

But, more importantly, they were working on the Walter u-boats. These were to use hydrogen peroxide to operate at full power while submerged. It turned out that hydrogen peroxide was too expensive to use in u-boats as the main fuel. But the Germans designed u-boats meant to use hydrogen peroxide temporarily. The fuel was also problematic to handle as it was very explosive. So these Walter boats were not ready by the end of the war.

In the mean-time the Germans improvised. They took the space meant to store the hydrogen peroxide and filled it with batteries. This led to the electroboats. These were equipped with the snorkel, and could travel submerged for about 2.5 days before recharging the batteries and they could also fully recharge the batteries after only a few hours on the snorkel. They also used a hydrodynamic hull, which allowed them to travel faster underwater than surfaced. Thus, the type XXI had a surfaced speed of 15.6 knots and a range of 15,500 miles. Submerged it had a top speed of 17.2 knots and a range of 340 miles.

Notice that they could now travel for 340 miles, instead of 80, while submerged. They could also stay submerged for 2.5 days. This made it much more difficult for the Allies to hunt down the electroboats. Their great underwater speed also made them very effective in underwater attacks.

The electroboats could have turned the tide of the u-boat war in favor the Axis. They came too late and in not enough numbers as to make a difference. But, the question for a scenario is: What if they had come earlier? The Germans could well have built electroboats in 1939. The snorkel had been invented by the Dutch, which was occupied by Germany in 1940. The reason the Germans didn't develop them earlier was simply that they didn't need to until the Allied air attacks became overwhelming during 1943. The technology was not all that sophisticated(hydrodynamic hull and loads of batteries). All that was needed was the will to develop it.

So I think that techs leading to snorkels, electroboats, and finally Walter-type boats shoudl lead to new submarines.

I see a possible upgrade path:

Diesel-Electric
Snorkel-equipped diesel electrics
Electroboats
Walter boats

Note: If the scenario allows the axis to develop nuclear weapons, then, if they develop fission, they may also develop a nuclear reactor, since the German nuclear program was more aimed towards a reactor anyways. In this case a nuclear sub may be a remote possibility.

Depending on the depth of the scenario, one may want to add coastal subs, anti-aircraft subs and the like. An interesting possibility may be the milk cows, which migth be able to heal other u-boats but not have an attack ability.


Possible techs:

Axis Technologies:
-Wolf-pack tactics
-Snorkel
-Electroboats
-Walter turbine
-Anti-radar technologies, like anti-radar coating
-Cracking allied convoy code
-Homing topedos (invented by germans during WWII)

Allied techs:
-Convoy tactics
-Airborne radar (permits construction of anti-submarine bomber that can spot u-boats that are not electroboats)
-Cracking Axis submarine codes

Possible wonders:

Cracking Allied Convoy Code (also maybe a tech): Reveals position of Allied transports

Cracking Axis U-boat codes (also maybe a tech): Reveals position of U-boats or increases chances of their detection since revealing all their positions may be overpowering. Alternatively, it could just reveal the location of boats that are not electroboats.

Submarine mass-production: Reduces u-boat construction costs by 50%.


It may also make sense to provide defences against the cracked codes.

Regarding the cracking of the allied convoy code, it is a little known fact that the Germans cracked the code the allies used to route convoys. So the Germans knew where the convoys would be ahead of time.

Another little known fact: The u-boats shot down a surprising number of allied aircraft. They even had some anti-aircraft u-boats. In response to allied air attacks Doenitz gave an order to shoot back at the Allied aircraft if they did not have enough time to submerge. This order was later rescinded.

Yet another fact: At the end of the war the Allies seized the Electroboats and Walter boats. They copied the hull design. This hull design was used in the Nautilus. They just put a nuclear reactor where the batteries should have been.

Good sites:
http://uboat.net/
http://www.ubootwaffe.net/
 
Good post NP300.

I think a good model for U-boat would be

- have 3 or 4 model of u-boat in the tech tree
- each model has different technological prerequisite
- advanced model have better combat value and abilities (like range)

Promotion should reflect doctrine. Wolfpack doctrine enhance effectiveness against transport. Naval interdiction enhance effectiveness against combat surface vessel.

On the other side, the same design philosophy should be made to surface naval unit, especially the destroyer (the counter unit for u-boat).

Have various model of destroyer, each with their technological prerequisite and combat values. Promotion should also reflect doctrine and probably specific technological upgrade: radar, use of recon aircraft for spotting u-boat, etc...

Destroyer are more versatile hence they should have more diversity in the promotion system.

A neat feature would involve various level of 'invisible' technology for the u-boat: a level 1 sub is invisible to level 1 destroyer unless it has the appropriate promotion. Level 2 destroyer however has built-in equipment against the level 1 sub. Level 2 sub is invisible to Level 1+2 destroyer unless it has the appropriate level 2 promotion. Etc...
 
Something else to think about: time-scale.

What would a turn represent: a week? a month? 3 month?

Since this is a scenario where each country has an OOB at the beginning, a week is an interesting design decision, IMO. However, this should be reflected in the production time of the unit.

For instance: training a vanilla infantry unit should take 3 months at the minimum. That means 12 game turns. An armor unit 6 months. A bomber squadron 6-12 months. A battleship 1 year minimum. U-boat 6-12 weeks. Of course, I am over-simplifying here but it's just to give a comparison point.

Personnaly, I prefer a game where each unit counts. WWII was a war of attrition and losing a lot of units in a few turns (weeks) should be painfull long-term since they are hard to replace due to long production time. Especially since manpower is not reflected and is probably very hard to simulate.

A system could probably be designed for the creation of new infantry unit, but it would probably be impossible to do so for the healing of existing units. 50 infantry divisions losing 10-25% of their manpower in a month would be a catastrophic event since the replenishment of those division would be next to impossible in the short term. Building such a system would be a real-pain, if at all feasible.
 
DarthCycle said:
A neat feature would involve various level of 'invisible' technology for the u-boat: a level 1 sub is invisible to level 1 destroyer unless it has the appropriate promotion. Level 2 destroyer however has built-in equipment against the level 1 sub. Level 2 sub is invisible to Level 1+2 destroyer unless it has the appropriate level 2 promotion. Etc...
Click to expand...

Yes, this is an idea I want to implement. I was planning a post on it. Actually, I want destroyers to only have a probability to detect subs, say 25%, which would vary according to sub and detection technology and promotions. I think it's boring when the odds of seeing a sub are 100%. But I suspect I will need to wait for the SDK to do this.

But a simple level system may work just modding the XML. It seems that units with "seeinvisible" have a list of units they can see. So it should be possible to let early destroyers see normal subs but not electroboats.
 
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