Zulu Problem (Not quite what you think)

[beetle]

It is not a change. The animation is misleading.

 

[beetle]

that's because UA, UB and UU all work together rather nicely. Impis are silly because you can spam them, they get free promos from UB including the godsend of a +1 movement and they're cheaper to hold around thanks to UA.
On the other hand, Keshiks/Camels/Longbows are broken on their own

If you have iron, you can play a Zulu game, not build Impi, and not even miss them! Right other cigs have OP UU, so why not the Zulu? It is synergy from the UB and UA that people notice. The UU actually adds very little. But the UU gets the credit for Zulu being OP.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I wouldn't say the UU adds "very little". Spear Throw is an insanely good ability because it enables the Zulu to kill melee units with melee units. Only Spear Throw enable the rushes because Impi, as opposed to pikes, can actually get rid of blocker units. That's what makes them so potent.

On the other hand the added movement is great but hugely overrated. Really experienced warmongers will always have systematic roads prebuilt in order to move as fast as possible. The real big deal about 3 movement is the fact that you can move onto Jungles/Hills/Forests and still fortify. That's much more important than the mobility component.

I agree with you though that the Impi are not a top tier Unique Unit. The Camel Archer, the Keshik, Horse Archers, Battering Rams, Longbows, Ships of the Line and Chu-Ko-Nu are all far more gamebreaking. Especially because melee units usually don't accomplish much on their own. Sure, Impi spam is a viable tactic, but it is not the ideal tactic. A mixed military with range and later on siege will always outperform an army consisting only of Impi.

 

[ShakaKhan]

It is not a change. The animation is misleading.

This changes my entire evaluation of the Zulu. They are a civ with lots, and lots, and lots... and lots of bonuses towards field combat, which admittedly on Deity, you're going to be doing quite a bit of. However, using aggression to make positive progress in the game is all about taking cities, and in this regard, the Zulu have very, very little bonus. The UB is probably their best bonus, adding a flat 10% bonus to combat strength plus an additional 7.5% from flanking (I think the optimum level you can achieve is 15% from flanking, if there's enough units, you can normally max at 20%, and an extra 75% of 20 is 15%). All well and good, but not enough to make melee attacking capitals a good strategy. Maybe against the secondary or brand new cities, but even then you'd lose more units than the traditional approach of ranged units bringing it down to 0. The extra cover from buffalo promotions is also marginal, since I'm almost positive it works like other cover promotions and protect against "ranged" attacks, and city bombards don't count as "ranged attacks." Their other bonus is the UU, and if the spear throw doesn't count against cities, they have no bonus there. And the UA, maybe you'll save enough gold from it to buy an extra couple of units, but with the amount you're saving and the amount they cost, it'd be very few. This just leaves the experience bonus, which is pretty decent because it allows your crossbows, frigates,and cannons to get range and logistics quicker, but doing this seems to counter all the other Zulu bonuses.

 

[lindsay40k]

Zulu are amazing at city capture.

You take left Honor. You recruit trios of spear, sword and bow.

You effectively reach Range III in half the time.

You shoot cities from a safe distance, getting up to Logistics and filling out the other promotions. (Don't even bother with siege units. Not even if an ally offers you Ballistae. You're a mobile army. Act like it.)

You run at crippled cities with Movement III melee units without taking ranged damage.

You get Gunpowder and upgrade your swords into Muskets, tanking for your Impi and marching on the Great Wall.

You get Commerce and buy a load of Buffalo Landsknechte, upgrading into Movement 5 Lancers with flanking bonuses that bulldoze entire counties in a single sweep and can take a few city attacks on the chin.

Send everyone for a run up Mt Kilimanjaro and you're laughing.

 

[Callonia]

Relax IanZulick, Shaka is one of those AIs that help drum the game up from typical ho-drum.

Although I must confess that I got SHaka as my neighbor once, and he was peaceful so I never got to enjoy the wrath of his impis. All other times was usually his impis facing off my gatling guns and dying miserably.

 

[claudiupb]

See what you're saying, but can't quite agree that they're simply "melee units." "melee units" have 2 moves whereas impi have 3 (for all practical purposes) The extra move means they're a hybrid melee and mounted, which means they should suffer a city attack bonus like mounted units do, but they don't.

Actually they are not at all like mounted units. The main advantage of mounted units is that they can move after attacking. Because of this you can surround a city with mounted units and each could attack the city and then retreat to safety after the attack. With a 4 movement unit you can do this starting form ring 1 and ring 2 so a potential 18 attacks on that city. This is indeed OP and they had to nerf the mounted units when attacking a city. You can still do this with the Songhai or Byzantines though.

Having extra movement is nice since it allows you to come from a greater distance to make the attack and/or retreat to safety after the attack. But this is not the case for melee units, even if they have 3 movement. The real problem with melee units is that they end their turn after the attack and then occupy the tile. No other attacks can be made from that tile in that turn, even if you have ranged units you will probably clear a line, but then will not be able to advance since your first and second lines are stuck on their tiles. You can not concentrate damage on a single tile with melee units since you can attack that tile only 6 times in the best case. Only after getting blitz the melee units get to move after attacking, so it's only after the 4th promotion (if you rush it), when 3 movement melee units (like Zulu units, Berserkers or Persian during GA) start to act like mounted units. With the Zulu that is realistically the 7th promotion since you will want the Ikanda promotions first.

There are of course advantages to having extra movement, but they don't make the unit a super mountee that has no penalty for attacking cities.

With the Zulu there is a slight lack of synergy since the extra movement is only for melee, meaning that your archer units and generals are left behind, so you won't always benefit from it because you have to wait for the archers most of the time.

 

[beetle]

Spear Throw is an insanely good ability because it enables the Zulu to kill melee units with melee units. Only Spear Throw enable the rushes because Impi, as opposed to pikes, can actually get rid of blocker units. That's what makes them so potent.

Really? I feel like I get almost nothing out of the spear. I think it would have to be about four times more powerful to be noticeable.

The real big deal about 3 movement is the fact that you can move onto Jungles/Hills/Forests and still fortify.

Fortify has no effect unless taken before any movement. A pike moving 1 hex to flat grass land and fortifying does not get a defensive bonus. An imp moving 1 hex to a hill and fortifying does not not get a defensive bonus. (Except that it is better to end movement on a hill.)

 

[claudiupb]

Fortify has no effect unless taken before any movement. A pike moving 1 hex to flat grass land and fortifying does not get a defensive bonus. An imp moving 1 hex to a hill and fortifying does not not get a defensive bonus. (Except that it is better to end movement on a hill.)

Except for Denmark, if they move from water to land, most units will have more movement points than they usually have. If you only use the "extra" movement you will be able to fortify in that turn. I think this is also valid for Persia during a GE.

 

[sugerdady87]

Relax IanZulick, Shaka is one of those AIs that help drum the game up from typical ho-drum.

Although I must confess that I got SHaka as my neighbor once, and he was peaceful so I never got to enjoy the wrath of his impis. All other times was usually his impis facing off my gatling guns and dying miserably.

Fortunate for you. In my current game, he betrayed me while we were both conquering the world together. His loyalty is fairly high, but I can't seem to maintain good relations with him.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Really? I feel like I get almost nothing out of the spear. I think it would have to be about four times more powerful to be noticeable.


Fortify has no effect unless taken before any movement. A pike moving 1 hex to flat grass land and fortifying does not get a defensive bonus. An imp moving 1 hex to a hill and fortifying does not not get a defensive bonus. (Except that it is better to end movement on a hill.)

1st comment

It is very much noticeable when you're abusing it in conjunction with
a) Terrain bonuses
b) Flanking bonuses
c) Massing units

The only other melee units that can overwhelm blocker units are Tanks, possibly Berserkers, Janissary or Samurai. This is huge.

2nd comment

I wasn't aware of that, thank you for correcting me.

 

[lindsay40k]

WRT Fortify: in Civ IV, any unit that does not move will add +5% defence per turn, to a max of 25%. The 'fortify' command is effectively a 'stand still and don't ask for new orders, no matter what' command, the outcome of which is the unit automatically entrenches. I take it Civ V follows the same approach (ie, a unit that's been left on sentry or has skipped turns will have the fortified bonus)?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Yes, it is exactly like that. In order to get the fortify bonus the next turn you have to either not move (or only use up bonus movement like with the Persian Golden Age). Though there will be no further increase after two turns.

 

[lindsay40k]

Hmm. If a Persian unit walks one tile through Great Wall territory during a GA, that's effectively using 2mp, right?

 

[RedJaguar]

Wait... they can get all 3 of these promotions on a single unit? +75% flanking bonus alone is ridiculous and +1 movement on top of that... and 1/3 dmg from ranged attacks and 20% more CS? What the...? You're kidding me right? Who needs GDRs when you can have (Ikanda)-Impi?

Unfortunately its not +25% flanking bonus for each promotion, resulting in 75%, it's an increase in 25%, meaning with all the upgrades your only getting an extra +2.5% flanking bonus. This means your final flanking will be only 17.5%.

 

[claudiupb]

Unfortunately its not +25% flanking bonus for each promotion, resulting in 75%, it's an increase in 25%, meaning with all the upgrades your only getting an extra +2.5% flanking bonus. This means your final flanking will be only 17.5%.

It's still a good bonus. It's almost as good as the regular double flanking bonus. And if you manage to double flank that is a 35% combat bonus, so even better than a potential triple flanking bonus (but surrounding a unit from 4 directions is not a possibility most of the times).

 

[zxcvbob]

Maybe that's changed. It's been a LONG time since I played without quick combat on, but back when I did, I saw the spear-throw animation when my city was attacked.

I'm pretty sure the spear throw does work on cities, it just doesn't do much damage. Cities are tough. Maybe I can tell by how much experience I get next time I attack a city...

I'm playing a Zulu game now. Just wondering if I should give my swordsmen and longswords Drill promotions instead of Buffalo, so I'll have a few units that are good in rough terrain and will eventually earn March and Blitz. Or are the buffalo promos so good that I won't miss March?

Mostly I'm just spamming Impis (lots of them), with a few composite bows and trebuchets for support. Very soon I'll have crossbows. The ranged units all get Barrage.

 

[lindsay40k]

I'm playing a Zulu game now. Just wondering if I should give my swordsmen and longswords Drill promotions instead of Buffalo, so I'll have a few units that are good in rough terrain and will eventually earn March and Blitz. Or are the buffalo promos so good that I won't miss March?

Get you an Alhambra that can do both

(Bonus: incredibly easy access to Medic II)

Incidentally, I never bother with Zulu trebs. UA + Military Tradition gets you quick access to Range Logistics Xbows that train faster (due to being able to fight at the front line and step aside to take a long shot), can trash a city fast, and have threat range synergy with the Impi.

 

[zxcvbob]

I'm going for a culture victory, so I took Liberty+Piety and will be opening Aesthetics next. It was tough not opening Honor to deal with the early barbs. Zulus get fast promotions even w/o Military Tradition, and I have great generals just standing around in case there's coal just outside my borders.

I love Alhambra, but I think someone already built it and I'm not ready to steal it and have everybody hate me yet. They all love me right now for taking care of Attila, and I've got open borders with everyone.

 

[lindsay40k]

Incidentally, Alhambra or not, I usually train up some Drill Swordsmen as Shaka. They do make great tanking units, especially since they can promote to Muskets whilst the Impi have to wait for Rifling. And having level one Buffalo promotion means they nearly have Woodsman & Altitude Training already. Adding either of them and March makes them into a frightening ambush/pursuit unit that can survive in isolation for quite a while.