SGOTM 13 - What do you want?

What Difficulty/Victory/Map do you Want in SGOTM 13?

  • Noble

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Prince

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Monarch

    Votes: 2 4.8%
  • Emperor

    Votes: 25 59.5%
  • Immortal

    Votes: 19 45.2%
  • Deity

    Votes: 6 14.3%
  • Diplomatic

    Votes: 6 14.3%
  • Domination

    Votes: 11 26.2%
  • Conquest

    Votes: 22 52.4%
  • Spacerace

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Religious

    Votes: 4 9.5%
  • Cultural

    Votes: 11 26.2%
  • Largely unmodified map

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Heavily customized map

    Votes: 26 61.9%

  • Total voters
    42
  • Poll closed .
Thoughts on teams (what works, why randomizing teams probably wouldn't work)
Spoiler :
For a team to work well together, there has to some common expectation of the type of playing/planning the team will do. Or at least a willingness to learn and adapt to the group's expectations. This develops over time and thus it is somewhat hard to just scramble the groups up as someone suggested. I made the same suggestion when I was getting involved with sgotm, but since then I think part of the fun is working with people you know, respect, and enjoy playing with.

Of course I'm not against having different teams, since learning from others and helping others in the team learn the game is also part of the sgotm experience. There is always a need for more players as people move on to different games or real life demands.

I think having too many people on the team is difficult since it really is hard to get that many people to agree or play with a reasonable understanding of a coherent strategy. And too few loses the richness of the experience.

That makes a lot of common sense.

@ Neil - I think it is up to the captain of each team to control it and direct discussion and ensure deadlines are met. For me 10 or so players is quite manageable as long as you have some kind of direction and follow it through to the end.

@ Grifftavian - I like the culture/conquest idea. The capital cities idea could be an issue if any of them got razed or destroyed before we reached them. Also you can't control Ai wiping out other Ai before you reach them and or capturing their capitals.

My main concern would be that our capital would reach legendary status before the captured Ai cities. This would need some game testing! Interesting concept though.
 
Some possibly "out there" ideas:

Always war cultural victory with no city razing.

Space (or possibly military victory) starting an era (or more) behind - AI gifted extra techs, not necessarily starting in ancient era for the human team.

Something starting with pre-settled cities and settlers aren't buildable, so it's about how different teams use the same cities.

I probably won't have time to play, only read, so I'd probably be happy reading about how teams beat a regular immortal or deity game too.
 
@gumbolt

well dunno... you think 10 is fine, but based on mine experience in last SGOTM I think 10 is a little bit too much. You saw it yourself how many people fell away and how at some various points the interest for discussion varied by various player.

I have to admit, that my interest spikes were closely before my turnset and 1-2 turnsets after, leaving the middle turnsets for the people that actually will take on them, just throwing various ideas around.
For that I think more compact team (like 6 people that don't fall off) should be better. You are almost always in the middle of the heat and the gameplay is then much more coherent.

Randomizing teams on the other hand is completely bad... don't do it. It's tough to meet strangers and start discussing things, in this game there is needed some kind of respect and that is something you build over time.
For newcomer in the team it's pretty tough to make at least some push through of your ideas.
 
Team size: In a game that spans 4 months, you might need 6 participating players to guarantee that 3-4 are active in discussions at any given time. You need probably 8 or more to guarantee your team has 6 participating players.

Why? False advertising? I think a lot of new players sign up intrigued by the idea of a "succession" game, (get a save, play it some, pass it on)... and then get discouraged because most teams are not playing these like a "succession" game. Most of us are playing game-by-committee games, with the person doing the actual moves is rotated out after each turnset. And if it takes 4 weeks to decide where to move the scout... the difference between expectations and reality will just be too large for some.

As for mixing up the teams, I think a lot of players who want to improve their game would like opportunities to learn from more different styles. These people should be able to sign up as "free agents".
Spoiler :
We could then hold a draft from the free agent pool, where each team captain picks a name. Free agents would not be able to look in any team thread until they are drafted.

The core players who work well and are comfortable together should just sign up for the team they work best with.

OMG... I think I've just basically described the present team sign-up structure (minus the draft)!! Instead the free agents are assigned by Admin, which is quite OK... as long as Admin recognizes that someone who puts their preferred team as "no preference" should not end up on the same team they played for last time. That GOTM staff is doing a fine job, aren't they? :goodjob: ;)

As for game difficulty level... I don't think it matters. I think what most people are saying is that whether using game difficulty level or map design, the present level of challenge of the games is sufficent to both attract new players and keep the old. There are plenty of ways to increase the level of challenge, and increasing the game difficulty level is just one of them. For example, without the fallout and diplo modifiers in SGOTM12, it would have been quite easy for every team to win the game even on Immortal level.

My only caution is that the "modification" that create challenge not be of the nature that would punish good decisions from a standard Civ4 BtS standpoint. Requires extensive testing. And from players... if conditions that are set in the beginning of the game need to be modified in light of discoveries that occur during the game, we need to be understanding of the Admins who do a great job keeping this a friendly competition as fair and as fun as possible.

If we want a game fairly soon, upping the level to immortal and accepting minor distortions to other aspects of the game is the way to go, IMO. Too long wait will cause some of the present active players to lose interest, maybe.
 
I voted emperor, but I'd be fine with immortal as well. Downside is it might scare off new people, otoh I have the impression the SGOTM crowd is pretty well established by now.

I just wanted to comment on the Advanced Setup that was commented as an option, in that it makes the game a lot easier for the human team. I experimented with that a few years ago quite a bit. When I had my troubles still on monarch with a normal start I could rather easily beat emperor with Advanced Setup. The problem is that the AI's spending of the available points is rather horrendous. It'll rather farm six river plain tiles of which it'll work 2 than buy AH and pasture 2 pigs. Also a human can buy a religion for instance by spending his points on myst and med or poly, which is normally out of the question in high level games. Now I'm sure it'll give interesting choices if you compare from team to team what the preferences are, but in all cases all teams will face AIs with their points spent in a very sub-optimal way. And the more points the game creator would give to start with, the bigger the gap with the AI will be, despite the fact that on higher levels the AI has more points to spend than the human. If the human can buy himself a decent start, half the game is won already. All this to say that if a game with AS would be created, it really really should be at least immortal, maybe even deity, because otherwise the game itself won't be too interesting. So IMO if effort has to be put into making AS work for a SGOTM in the first place, I'd rather have the game creator spend his time thinking out a more "normal" yet devious scenario. :)
 
Strongly favor an ancient start played to one of the usual VCs.
What we have had recently have been great games to learn how to deal with unique circumstances. Some great and creative strategies have been employed and the games have been great fun. But it is always a good idea to shake things up a bit. And learning how to deal with a completely standard randomized map (on immortal preferably) could bring a whole new feel to how much is learned in these games.
I prefer a longer game. The variety in viable strategies goes up when the game spans a lot of ages. Conquest without vassals on a map that requires astronomy sounds good to me. Space is probably the most diversifying VC, but we have had enough space games recently. Diplo is too restrictive in strategy imo, and it is hard to find a not-heavily doctored map that isn't going to favor a mass media beeline and probably victory around 1100AD.
 
KCD - I would propose an alternate version of your "free agent" plan. The flaw in your plan is that these free agents are either new players or possibly less experienced players from past SGOTMs thrown into the pool. So what does drafting these players mean exactly? Many won't even know them enough to know their experience and playstyle. What would be the determining factors used as a basis for existing teams to draft these players?

Instead, I would propose that the "ace" players, who are generally quite well known by existing teams, be the free agents. Now that would be interesting. It would spread the wealth and allow less experienced teams to be more competitive and actually learn a lot while the SGOTM is in process. It may also curb some of the dominance of just a few (actually a couple) of existing teams.

Honestly, although winning is always nice, it is not my number one priority with the SGOTMs. It has always been to learn to be a better player. I like my team and have learn some, but I'm sure everyone on my team would agree that there are no ace players. Basically, while we learn some tidbits from each other, we really don't learn much until the SGOTM is over. It would be interesting to learn during the process from these great players. Now the "ace" players may not like this idea since they are on established teams, but I think it is an interesting proposition should something change with the team setup process. I know some of these players enjoy the teaching aspect of the game.

New players on the other hand should be assigned by Admins simply to balance the numbers on the teams.
 
KCD - I would propose an alternate version of your "free agent" plan. The flaw in your plan is that these free agents are either new players or possibly less experienced players from past SGOTMs thrown into the pool. So what does drafting these players mean exactly?

New players on the other hand should be assigned by Admins simply to balance the numbers on the teams.

I was only joking about having a draft, actually. :blush: I think the present system where unassociated players are distributed among the teams is a pretty good system. The only "problem" is that if there are so many new players that another team has to be formed, and by default it gets a bunch of people who don't know each other and probably are not as experienced.

(Mind, that this is a "good" problem if we get that much interest in participation... and I would point out that several of the teams now regularly playing SGOTM's started out as such a group... Unusual Suspects for example.)

I think maybe we should encourage folks on established teams that may want to broaden their experience to go "unassigned" for SGOTM13, thus ensuring that any new team that has to be formed will get some benefit of an experienced player or two.

I'm not at all concerned about domination by one or two teams, though. I think its good that we have exemplary play to read about afterwards and really learn something. Why would anyone want to do away with that? Watering down the play of the best teams to improve competitiveness isn't a good direction to go in. Better to boost the play of the second tier, if we can. :D
 
I saw an earlier post suggest conquest on an archipelago map, which I find really appealing. I've tried a couple of archipelago maps on my own, and find that they are more challenging than your typical pangaea/big and small/fractal maps because they require a very different approach, and they seem somewhat resource poor.

Perhaps Archipelago/conquest with a non-seafaring civ (Zulu, Mongol?) against all the sea-faring civs as AIs - Dutch, Portuguese, Viking, Carthage, English? Put it at Emperor level, because there are enough challenges created by the map type to still challenge most of us?
 
How about a "blind" setup: teams start without knowing the map type, climate settings, or the number of AI opponents. I would say hide the map size and difficulty level too, but you can figure those out pretty easily from build/tech costs.
 
I think a big positive about having 4-5 core players in a team is you grow to understand eachother. If new members join least they feel like they are joining a team who know the ropes. If you start with 8-9 random people it takes time for everyone to understand each other and the way they play. I think it helps to know the players in your team.

@ Reuster. Isn't all that detail shown in the game setting page?

@ Fluroscent 1100ad mass media win??? Ackkkk! No thank you!

@ Dr Lake - Nice idea but I would set up game so a distant Ai already had the great light house! Greeks? I would like to see a game where PD did not build Oracle, GLH or TC early on.
 
I'm not at all concerned about domination by one or two teams, though. I think its good that we have exemplary play to read about afterwards and really learn something. Why would anyone want to do away with that? Watering down the play of the best teams to improve competitiveness isn't a good direction to go in. Better to boost the play of the second tier, if we can. :D
I think experience has shown that teams are not generally good at all VC's. They are better at some than others. As we change VC's and map conditions, we generally get different results. It will be interesting to see what happens, should we have a more "straightforward" game... :think:

Of course, then the rule applies, Never Trust a Map Maker! :mischief:
 
who says we should try to win the GOTM? maybe play on immortal with the goal of losing a time victory? lowest score wins, so you can't just dominate the map and ride it out (or, you can, but then maybe you won't win). Most mediocre team wins? But you still have to be strong enough to stop the AI from achieving other victory conditions
 
@ Fluroscent 1100ad mass media win??? Ackkkk! No thank you!
Like a 1750AD Spaceship win on a fallout ridden world? You should begin to expect the impossible from the top teams by now :p
Which is why I don't think a diplo game qualifies as a "long" game.
 
How about a "blind" setup: teams start without knowing the map type, climate settings, or the number of AI opponents. I would say hide the map size and difficulty level too, but you can figure those out pretty easily from build/tech costs.

Numbers of AI opponents is also easy to find out from the victory screen when you open the game. If, as seems likely, the map is highly customized, then the likelihood is that that aspect of the setup will to some extent be 'blind'.
 
Numbers of AI opponents is also easy to find out from the victory screen when you open the game. If, as seems likely, the map is highly customized, then the likelihood is that that aspect of the setup will to some extent be 'blind'.

If you turn off the conquest victory, I'm pretty sure you can hide the number of remaining AI.
 
What I have liked most about SG scenarios is that they have forced me to learn something new about CIV. Asking for people's preferences is liable to lead to the opposite. An alternative to that might be to examine what people tend to do and what they tend to avoid and create a scenario that forces them to focus on what is avoided. Off the top of my head:

* remove the ORacle slingshot (e.g., some AI starts with the ORacle)
* you have to end the game with X vassals but without DoWing them
* you have to run the research slider at 0%
* you're teamed with an AI
* all the AIs are teamed together
* you can only acquire techs by stealing them
* win by domination with no city razing but owning all corporations and having at least two branches in each city
* team winning the game by any VC with the fewest number of techs wins the gold

etc.

But the point is not to come up with some crazy scenario, which some or all of the above might be, but to create a scenario that helps people learn about different aspects of CIV.
 
Well said LowtherCastle ! ! :agree:
 
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