SGOTM 13 - What do you want?

[Gumbolt]

edit -

So, you want to make it more like Deity without calling it Deity?

I am just saying there are ways to add spice to normal games by making an Ai stronger. Either that or having rules that define what the player can or can't do.

I doubt it would make it close to deity as playing against emperor Ai the player would still keep up and expand well just face a strong final Ai to take out.

 

[babybluepants]

Deity/Conquest

Don't mind customization but I guess make it so no teams can lose early. (no insane neighbor, no barbs?)

The gap from emperor to immortal should be managable for any of the teams. Immortal to Deity is quite a gap though, and Deity is very unforgiving if the opening is not played to perfection. Teams may quickly find themselves in a situation they cannot turn around for a win.

Immortal, but a real immortal map, meaning not set up with an overly strong capital, easy AIs or tons of easily block-able land would be great.

I initially voted Deity, but, on second thought, agree with what Fluro said. Not all teams have extensive Deity experience, and the strategy/tactics required to succeed on Deity are qualitatively quite different from any lower level. "Real" Immortal would probably be best, IMHO. It offers much more leeway in strategic approach, which is good for competitive purposes.

It's certainly an option, but I'm not sure how it could be made to work given that some victory conditions can always be achieved faster than others, so everyone would feel obliged to go for the one or two fastest VC's even if they're theoretically allowed to go for other ones.

Quick speed?

If we played for a specific VC, I'm for Conquest. (didn't vote on this)

 

[leif erikson]

I initially voted Deity, but, on second thought, agree with what Fluro said. Not all teams have extensive Deity experience, and the strategy/tactics required to succeed on Deity are qualitatively quite different from any lower level. "Real" Immortal would probably be best, IMHO. It offers much more leeway in strategic approach, which is good for competitive purposes.

Yes, this is probably a good compromise.

If we played for a specific VC, I'm for Conquest. (didn't vote on this)

Is this with Vassals enabled, or not?

 

[Gumbolt]

I think it is also important that the map does not let people who walk deity/immortal levels get too comfortable. I always think there should be a variable that makes team have to take a step back and think. What is that variable?

I like the last game as it wasn't just about space it required domination and keeping the Ai alive with a spaceship thown in. Lots of variables that really tested some of the teams.

Now you could repeat the last map but give us the old stalin land to play from and require a domination win! Now that would be interesting.

I think back to the English. We are on a small island but we managed to conquer 75% of the known world. Amazing!!

I will keep throwing in ideas in the hope some of them might be useful.

Of course following the nuclear blast out you would think a lot of grassland would turn to dessert. Not that I am suggesting you would give us a terrain challenge. Not that Duckweed can't cope with ice starts.

 

[lymond]

I think back to the English. We are on a small island but we managed to conquer 75% of the known world. Amazing!!

Gratuitous Brit plug!


The Stalin idea aint bad really. We could call it "Undead Stalin and the Revenge of the Zombie Comrades". Of course, we'd want a different map and start but it could be similar in format. However, Russia probably needs a little break.

 

[neilmeister]

We now have more teams that are fairly well established and that are increasing used to working with one another. I think it is time to try a high level difficulty game to see what the results might be and to keep people's interest. What better way to learn than to participate in levels of difficulty above what many of us would normally try?

Yes, this is a very good point. I just know that some members of my team describe themselves as Monarch players.

But, playing higher difficulty is always the best way to learn, I think we could manage Immortal.

I think it is also important that the map does not let people who walk deity/immortal levels get too comfortable. I always think there should be a variable that makes team have to take a step back and think. What is that variable?

We have to conquer the AI in alphabetical order, we can only DoW each AI once, make sure all the AI near us start with 'S', or 'W'.

 

[shyuhe]

I initially voted deity as well, but I think an emperor or immortal game will be better for SGOTM. In particular, the risk/benefit of certain early game wonders is a big decision for those levels. Plus, as bbp mentioned, an immortal game would make many more strategies workable than a deity game.

 

[unclethrill]

I also voted Emperor but I agree that Immortal is probably more appropriate for the teams now.
I think that conquests and Ap are too quick to finish unless they have pre-reqs like nuking every city first so I think a domination or diplo with a twist is the way to go.

Maybe Diplo and start with everyone at war with us or a Dom with a small island archip.

Just something to really make us think. I think this helps to level the playing field.

 

[Jaybone]

immortal is the way to go. Victory is not guaranteed but can be pretty much pulled off in any scenario. Makes you really weigh pluses and minuses of each decision

You can never tailor the game to teams like the Plastic Ducks. Congrats guys, you win. Good job, it's a collection of maybe 3-4 of the best civ4 players in the world.

 

[Duckweed]

I'd like immortal, suitable for all teams, but I'd like to see a real strong opponent, not like the claimed evil barbarian in SGOTM11, or the lousy Stalin in SGOTM12.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Definitely not playing so I wasn't going to respond here but I must say that immortal is very difficult for a lot of players. Mapmakers better do some extensive testing if that's the way they're going.

 

[Gumbolt]

I'd like immortal, suitable for all teams, but I'd like to see a real strong opponent, not like the claimed evil barbarian in SGOTM11, or the lousy Stalin in SGOTM12.

This is what I had been suggesting. The question is how?? You can never rely on the Ai to do exactly what you want! You also don't want to create a run away tech monster. I have played large maps where the distant AI have grown to 15-16 cities and were getting modern techs in 5-6 turns or less. I did like my china wall idea from suggestions I made in SGOTM 12. Starting an Ai with a wonder like great wall.

@ Lymond - It's good to remember Britain was once great!! In fact I will even suggest the English should be the nation we play. Red coats would honour the SGOTM. Play it on a big and small map. We had a cookbook similar to that and I remember a certain Ai being a real thorn.

@ neilmeister- I like the alphabet thing. Perhaps we could all be given a list of Ai in the game. My only concern might be we face a tech race to rifles and a normal game in some respects. You have to also consider that some Ai might be destroyed naturally by barbs or other AI. We might need another variable to add interest early game. Perhaps something to do with wonders? Anotheer rule stating you could only capture cities from the AI first in list. Oh the Alphabet end in Z for Zulu! So a start next to Shaka and give him the great wall too. he would need viking or another war monger near him to put us in a position where we have to think a bit. ;o)

I have also not seen a SGOTM where we were forced to run a loss making empire and just spammed units to take over the map.

Overall whatever game type is chosen we want a game where every team is not forced into one strategy!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If we do domination - which I voted for - maybe highest score should be used for victory as opposed to earliest date/fastest victory. Highest score dom would require different strategies and offer a change of pace for the SGOTM.

If it will be a Domination game, then I believe that this idea has a lot of merit.

The precedent, of course, are the Score-based Medals in the XOTM competitions. As a player who struggles to get the rare Score-based Medal (which are different from the Fastest Finish Awards), I would love to read about strategies that people use to get really high scores.


That said, I think that we're ready for a change of pace... a Culture-only Victory Condition would make for a fun challenge. Indeed, such a game might help us finally get some good statistics on Sid's vs stop-teching-early Cultural approaches to help in determining which is better.


We might see the most variety in approaches in a Continents (i.e. Astronomy-required) Conquest game, which I'd also be up for playing.


Actually, I think that a Continents Conquest could go hand-in-hand with a Cultural game, such that you wouldn't have to have Cultural Victory as the only option but it would be far more competitive of an option than in SGOTM 11. As long as all of the Religion-loving AIs aren't starting on other continents, Cultural games could reasonably compete, while those who got unlucky with Religions could still finish with a Conquest win.

You'd also then have the balance between taking over your continent early versus beelining techs to be able to go after the overseas AIs.

Vassals kind of unbalance Conquest games, though, in that those who tech the fastest can take advantage of cascading Capitulations for a relatively easy win, so I would propose turning off Vassals... then we'd probably have a lot more competitive results out of the Cultural games.

Throw in Raging Barbs to give the Cultural games a reason to build a few Military Units, while the most successful-starting Conquest games (wiping out all of the neighbours early on) would then have to face a new enemy before being able to sail overseas--the Barbs!

 

[Gumbolt]

What about a game reliant on espionage? Score would go to teams with most great spies born. yes this would lend to a great wall start. Not done a game based on this yet.

I would add a condition that any non great spies would have to be added to the capital. hard to prove I know but the log does show when great people are born!

Teams would gain points for number of techs stolen and number of great spies born. You would lose points for any non spy great persons. There would be a lot of strategy involved to max out number of techs stolen. You would also lose points for any non great spy not added to the capital.

 

[vranasm]

espionage seems interesting...it's something that is usually pretty much ignored/avoided in usual strategies employed on S&T games anyway (except for the newest RPC from madscientist)

 

[Frederiksberg]

How about an advanced start? It has never been tried in an SGOTM so it would be in keeping with the tradition of forcing the game into unknown territory. Perhaps starting in the industrial era and with domination or conquest as VC.

 

[babybluepants]

How about an advanced start? It has never been tried in an SGOTM.

How about two games ago?

 

[Gumbolt]

How about two games ago?

Yes but what about an advanced start where you are given 600 points to spend on cities/improvements/units? Is that what he meant?

 

[kcd_swede]

Yes but what about an advanced start where you are given 600 points to spend on cities/improvements/units? Is that what he meant?

I'm not sure how you would do that... though I'm guessing that its probably possible. The reason I say this is that I have toyed with the idea, and tried making a map with Advanced start turned on. The problem I encountered is that you are required to spend that all as soon as you start the game. (Typical game-making requires the mapmaker to start the game by loading the WB-save to create the save in BUFFY, and this process forces the game-maker to spend the 600.)

But perhaps more experienced map-makers know how to cirumvent that. I don't.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

While the poll is still open for a fair few days yet, on the basis of the results so far, it's looking like there's a strong consensus for either emperor or immortal difficulty on a heavily modified map, with most people preferring a military victory option.

The comments in this thread have leant towards immortal. Just to throw an additional thing into the discussion: Is there any argument for saying that, while immortal may be preferred by seasoned SGOTM players, emperor has the advantage of being more likely to attract new people to SGOTMS?