Request for Wildmana 8

The version I have is the Master of Mana prior to any patches for it.
What don't I like? Alright, let's go.
Magic to me seems like it's been reworked to the point that it's unusable. The separate tech-tree for it, the way you have to use spells, and the complete uselessness of arcane units.
Terraforming by spells - what in normal FfH et modmods are spells such as Vitalise, Scorch, Spring, etc - have been made to use the same spell interface as everything else, which seems counterintuitive, clumsy and unless one can choose the exact tile and range they're enacted, far too innaccurate.
The way one researches different spell spheres (light, element and dark), while separate from the normal research tree, doesn't seem to take other spheres into account. Researching basic from Element and Dark, and any rank I sphere from light, all at once, and with standard technology research too? Just how much are these researches actually paid to do four researches at once?
The Traits part of the Pedia. Take a leaf from RifE and give them actual pages, which allow for links to the promotions, etc that they give/enable. I don't like having to hunt for them, particularly for promotions because of the sheer amount of them, and it's hard to tell which section they're meant to be in.
Cult/Council of Esus. Either make it a fully-fledged religion, or don't. Allowing people to take it as a religion, but not allowing them access to it's heros like the others unless one takes the Cult, this barring Empyran from the empire (come back to that in just a moment) instantly sets me against the idea.
Losing access to Empyran, while it's probably just a small thing, cuts the usefulness of the Religion civic, which I frequently make use of.
Houses of Erebus. The idea isn't so bad, but the mass of resources each of them consumes and the support rises and drops put me off even bothering with them. However, the option to disable them entirely partially makes up for this.
The Fey. While I'm sure people will accuse me of being wrong here, the entire concept of them sits the wrong way with me.
The Frozen. If, like RifE, there was a way to disable them, I wouldn't have a problem. I don't like them, I don't like the way they work. They step on the toes of Infernals, Mercurians and Illians. About the only good thing in MoM about them is the lack of the White Hand religion, which annoys me to no end when someone adopts it in RifE.
Mana. Short of going into the city screen, there appears to be no easy way to tell how many of which types you have. Further to that, if one has too many resources, not just mana, the scrollbars in the city screen cease to function, making it impossible to tell the quantity and details for many, if not a fair portion of, resources.
This may be resolution-specific problem however, as it happens for me on a 1366x768 laptop screen, and I can't test this on other taller resolutions.

That should be enough for now. At some point I'll find the latest version, re-evaluate those points and see what, if anything, changes.
 
Just to be fair: The traits page comes from Fall Further, RifE simply inherited it.

And I dislike the Fey just as much as you do. ;)

I just say cough"Hamstalfar" here... bless ya :goodjob: And nobody has to play a civ one don't like. No one forces you to do so.

@Derf: some good points, but lots of them have been improved with the latest two patches. For Esus f. e. there is a very cool module from esvath, xtended MoM, which you should try. For the pedia entries: the team around Sephi is not very big. Feel free to help them by adding pedia entries. Would be very nice... by the way: today came out the third patch.

Greez,

Tschuggi
 
you should probalby wait until 1.1 comes along, which should be at the end of month (although the beta is already available).
for example you can target your terraforming rituals and spells got a balance make over, i now use them quite heavily. spell research is going to stay, although it will get an overhaul in 1.2, you also have some misconceptions about how it works.
 
Like I said, I'll look into the patches when I get around to it.
The Fey and Frozen though, while yes you don't have to play as them, unless you want to manually pick out every civilization (which I don't) without an option to disable them, they're still going to show up. I don't want them even played by the AI.
As to the Pedia entries, even RifE is lacking when it comes to the Trait pages, but they still have the essential details - like anywhere else traits are listed (eg the Leaderhead pages) they list and link to the relevant things. The actual pedia blurb for the traits hasn't been written. It's not the blurb that bothers me, some are interesting yes, but it's the detail part I want.
For example, the RifE (or rather Fall Further, thanks Valk) implementation not only gives the details such as a free combat I to those unit types, but lists the Civs\leaders with that trait - allowing you to find a leader you want to play. It makes things quicker than searching for a leader or Civ with the trait, just to get the link to the stuff it grants.

Alright, so maybe it isn't exactly a big point. I'll grant I was being overly picky when I listed my complaints.
 
what is it that you don't like on MoM? And which beta version did you play? It is still in development...

The CIV 4 economy is the most balanced and interesting of any game I have played.
I recently wrote a guide just on the effects of game speed and map size. These are only a small portion of the CIV 4 economy, but CIV 4 is complex enough that the guide ended up taking six pages to completly cover the topic.

MoM completly alters these fundamental economy mechanics which FFH basically left intact. This creates an immediate and huge obstical for any new player to overcome. It is also the biggest reason new players to MoM feel like they are playing a different game.

More importantly, these new changes while very demanding on the player in terms of time spent relearning them, don't make that game all that much more fun. Its basically a huge learning curve which when mastered just lets you do what you already knew how to do under the old system (build new cities and optimize city output)

MoM has a lot of amazing features in it, but the economy changes, which can't be toggled are in my opinion a big downside. A few players love them. Many (myself included) don't care much for them.

This splits the user base in half and leads to requests like this one for older versions. I have my copy of WM 8 still which is hands down my favorite incarnation of FFH and a true masterpiece. I'll probably stick with it until someone makes a mod mod of MoM that restores the economy back to the way I like it.
 
to me the cIV economy is bland and boring, but i guess taste differ. as for your assessment of the changed economy i don't know what particular issue you have in mind, but when it comes to the new global yields (the new resources like metal, leather and so on) you are probably right. again these are being reworked with 1.1
1.0 was a very big step and it will get polished in future patches, we don't intend to keep boring mechanics.
the main issue is, if you stick with WM 8.34 you will never see progress, while MoM will get changed (for the better as 1.1 will show you).
 
Selphi, yourself and the rest of the team have done amazing work on MoM.

Modding is something of a brutal hobby. You poor your sweat and labor into a project and sure enough someone comes around and complains no matter what you do. :)

I am a big fan of 8.34 and don't like a major mechanic of MoM but as MoM improves and gets better and better over time I may be sold down the road.

Your competing with yourself in a way. Great and Polished vs New and Exciting.
For now I prefer great and polished, but obviously as I am posting here I am very interested in MoM, 1.1 probably won't be enough to sell me but 1.3 might.
 
Selphi, yourself and the rest of the team have done amazing work on MoM.

Modding is something of a brutal hobby. You poor your sweat and labor into a project and sure enough someone comes around and complains no matter what you do. :)

I am a big fan of 8.34 and don't like a major mechanic of MoM but as MoM improves and gets better and better over time I may be sold down the road.

Your competing with yourself in a way. Great and Polished vs New and Exciting.
For now I prefer great and polished, but obviously as I am posting here I am very interested in MoM, 1.1 probably won't be enough to sell me but 1.3 might.

Nice to hear:D

I myself like the new economy very much, especially because it demands to keep some tiles unimproved, what prevents you from boring and monotonic improvement spamming (cottage spam:wallbash:), you now have to plan your improvements better, but you will get better results.

And it establishes a credible fantasy setting and atmosphere and gives you bonus from synergetic improvements (windmill next farm, quarry next cottage, etc. - although some makeover has still to be done) - and not to forget the gobal resources like lumber, learther, metal, stone and herbs which can boost your building production (lumber, metal, stone), spell research (herbs - jamaikan meditation) and equipment: armory, weaponry, potions:goodjob: - it was something that really had to be done!!!

I really enjoy the game, but not only because of all these, imho very good, changes, but because of one very important thing: the AI of MoM really challenges you. It tries to win. And it does. I am playing civ since the first version :)old:) and I think I am a really decent and demanding civ-addict, and therefore I like Sephi's approach very much - because the AI challenges me and therefore I have fun. And it is stable!!!

The other modmods have cool stuff, new things, cool mechanics, very nice ideas, cool new civs, cool heros, etc. - but imho they lack always at least one of two things: challenging AI and stability.
WM has this. MoM has it soon - imo even better.

Greez,

Tschuggi
 
as daunting as the new system may seem at first, it's definitely worth getting into. it's less micromanageish, instead of MOAR improvements and moving giant stacks of units around you'll have to THINK about your improvements and less stacks of doom -> instead you'll have focused and well equipped squads that require thought to put together.

the new promotion system means combat I-V is no longer the end all be all, so that's yet another layer with a lot more complexity and a lot less easy choices.

culture is actually meaningful, which was one of the good things in Civ V and now is in MoM.

the new hero system is pure genious, instead of cowards you have courageous heroes that you WILL want to use

all in all, you will see that every single change in the game, from the most trivial to the most radical, all have very good reasons to them and they are aimed towards a better gameplay, with more complexity yet less micromanagement.
 
The new economic system may be every bit as wonderful as you say, but I still maintain that the 'pedia does a very poor job explaining how it's supposed to work. A major change to a fundamental game system like that really needs to be adequately explained and not something you figure out solely through trial and error.

Anyway, I've argued this before :wallbash: and nothing's been done to the 'pedia, so I'm going to drop it at this point.

I would simply suggest that team members take a look at what the 'pedia says about improvements and decide for themselves whether there's adequate information in there for a new (or even not-so-new) player to understand how it works.

Nothing with wrong with having to plan your improvements, as Tschuggi says, but it's really hard to plan ahead when the limits are not explained.
 
Well, I've patched my install of MoM to the latest version, and even tried and managed to play a game... for a bit.
I do like the unique Epic Legacy victories for each civilization, I have to admit. It adds a new dimension to each civ, a new set of goals rather than the standard victory conditions.
On the other hand, I'm going to throw in my lot against the economy. I often play the Illians, and make a dash for Temple of the Hand (Or White Hand religion on RifE) to take full effect of their glacial climate bonuses. Here on MoM though, it destroyed my economy completely.
Mana - is there really a point to different mana nodes any longer? I may be mistaken, but it seems like it doesn't matter, as you have access to all spheres of magic simply by researching them, and never mind if you have the mana for that sphere.

I'm still (trying) to play what's now a Grigori game, so if I run accross anything else, I'll add it.
 
mana nodes give different bonuses, for example some strengthen your summons, other affect your terraforming, you can find those effects in the magic overview.
mana nodes also increase the damage of the spells of that sphere. (in 1.1)
research works different then you think:
while you can set research items in all three schools (light, ele, dark) only one will get researched and this depends on your alignment and your mana nodes. (for example if you are evil and have mostly death mana you will always research dark magic). this mechanic will probably get overhauled in 1.2 though.
by latest version do you mean 1.02 or 1.1 beta?
 
he does bring a good point to the table, something that many modmods changed:

snow shouldn't take away the +1 c you get from riversides, otherwise freezing terrain over often becomes quite damaging for the Illians.
 
I meant the 1.1 beta.
Thanks for clearing up the spell research thing, but I think you might have it wrong on one point... I chose not to manually direct my spell research on the Illian game. While Auric is Evil, he seemed to be able to pick up researches from all three spheres still.
Though I did seem to get more from the Dark sphere, so I guess there's something to it.
 
it is a probability so you may end up getting some research from the other schools as well if you mana from them (for example ice)
 
it is a probability so you may end up getting some research from the other schools as well if you mana from them (for example ice)

which is really not bad, because you then get the advantage to use other global enchantments and spells as well.

Derf, I love the Illians and play often with them, but I never managed to cripple my economy with them. Are you sure you didn't build tooo much improvements??

And the lack of pedia entries is a very good point!!! Wouldn't this be the perfect job for kingknarf?

Greez,

Tschuggi
 
Six cities, and between them two Gold resources with mines. All of them on a trade network with each other. Plenty of other factors, but I'm not going to try and list them here.
Prior to any glacial climate spread, I was pulling in +33gpt with Research set to 50%, no great people at all.
After my capital built it's Temple of the Hand, this dropped to 26. Once the resulting spawned blizzards and TotHs built in other cities came into play, with research set to 0%, I was losing 10gpt.

I'll load up a new game (since I didn't save that one) and see if I can reproduce if you really want me to. But the main point is, they seem to lose a great deal of gpt by snowing over their lands.
 
Six cities, and between them two Gold resources with mines. All of them on a trade network with each other. Plenty of other factors, but I'm not going to try and list them here.
Prior to any glacial climate spread, I was pulling in +33gpt with Research set to 50%, no great people at all.
After my capital built it's Temple of the Hand, this dropped to 26. Once the resulting spawned blizzards and TotHs built in other cities came into play, with research set to 0%, I was losing 10gpt.

I'll load up a new game (since I didn't save that one) and see if I can reproduce if you really want me to. But the main point is, they seem to lose a great deal of gpt by snowing over their lands.

Maybe too much cities for early game, but cannot judge this because of me preferring the no settlers option. For checking the improvement upkeep: or you mouseover them quickly, mouseover the gold-income or simply go into the cityscreen and mouseover the gold-symbol in upper-left-section. For the new magic system I suggest you try the "arcana unleashed" option in custom games. Killing with spells makes fun:D
 
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