Was It Obvious 1UPT Wouldn't Work?

And yes, I have played against a human player, with SoD. It's a complete different thing. Again, that has no relation to playing against the AI with or without SoD. I still say 1UPT requires more effort on my part vs an AI than SoD does. Anything you say about playing MP doesn't change that at all.
This is an important sentence.

1upt requirese more effort.
Many people mix this with being "intellectually more challenging", which it is not, at least not in Civ5.

Yes, 1upt works in certain games. But these are games with a much different scale (in all regards, might it be map-size, unit speed, timeframe, whatever).
1upt is a tactical combat system.
As Civ by definition is played on a worldmap, combat takes place on a map scaled for strategic decisions. The mismatch is obvious.

I was talking about playing against the Civ IV:BtS AI that a bunch of you keep insisting is so much better than the Civ 5 one. It's not any better at all. It's just able to use stacks, and the Civ 5 one can't. The Civ 5 one needs to be smarter, I'll agree, but it's not 'dumber' than the Civ IV one. It just simply can't get away with being as dumb.

Almost nobody says the Civ4 AI would be "smarter". It is just that the flaws of the combat AI are to a certain degree covered by a stacking system, whereas the same flaws are exposed by an 1upt system.
In both games, the human player has an advantage over the AI, as far as combat is concerned.

In Civ5, however, this advantage cannot be compensated by production bonuses. The "stack of doom" pictures only make this obvious.

Talking about "the Civ5 combat AI just needs to be smarter": There is a reason why it just isn't smarter.
First, Firaxis was never known for smart combat AIs. Sad, but true.
Second, a combat AI which is not only able to determine the correct sequence of attack movements, but simultaneously is able to grasp the concept of "battle theatres" (or regions, or areas, or provinces, however you would like to call it), to identify the correct sequence of movements, to properly estimate the consequences of enemy movements and whatnotmore would not only take a huge amount of time (in terms of months and man-hours) to create, but it wouldn't even be tolerable in terms of playtime.
Since years, cpu speed has stagnated at around 4 GHz. And there are only that many calculations you can do within a given period. More cores don't help (at least not much) as combat cannot really be split up between different processors.
Bottom line: even if a better combat AI could be programmed (and Firaxis has proven over the years that THEY aren't the company to do so), it would require much more of everything: more processing power, more RAM, more inter-turn time.

I find myself enjoying civ5 1upt more then I enjoyed the civ4 uupt combat system. In civ4 (due to braindead ai thankyou r_rolo1) you would just build stack march to city kill, and repeat.
This may be true for engaging just one city and not looking at anything beyond.

Actually, since combat always has to be looked at in the context of the whole game, this statement is not correct.
If in Civ4 you were going of a war, you were well advised to performe "good" attacks, meaning to minimize you losses.
Sure, you could just throw 25 catapults at an enemy city and finally you would have redlined each and every defender. But that would have been a complete waste of production. You would have been better off with only making use of say 5 catapults and then making use of your "real" troops in a good way - meaning that you would have to check which unit to attack at a given point, taking into consideration which defender was expected to fight against your attacker.
Finally, you would have to leave some troops in the just occupied city - something which is completely missing in Civ5. There, you can just move on. No need to care about what you leave behind. You even don't have to connect the new city to your empire.


r_rolo1 sounds like there is actually quite alot of sophistication possible in a uupt system against an expert opponent - something I have sadly never experienced as have only played on single player.
I have to assume that you were playing on smaller maps, then.

For almost any Civ game, difficulty at any given level is enhanced when playing on bigger maps - just because you opponents will have much more space (=equalling production capacity).
Now, on huge maps you could easily overstretch your empire. You would conquer some cities, but the enemy would still be living. And your army would be somewhere in the south, 20 turns away from your core region, whilst in the north the next AI might prepare for an invasion.

This is much less the case in Civ5. Sure, moving your units from one front to the other is more of an hassle in Civ5. But that's just the point: moving within own territory where no enemy is imposing a threat on you is just this: more hassle.
There isn't any "challenge" in moving units through own territory. There is micro-managment.

Once again, I completely agree that this is less a factor on smaller maps.
The idea that a 1upt system is fundamentally broken in a civ context is imo just flatout wrong. After all 1upt is commonly cited as favourite part of civ5 by people who actually like the game, so its not broken for those people at the very least.
Well, first of all many, if not most people who explain their enjoyment of 1upt almost in the next sentence add "if only I could do some stacking" (might it be one ranged with one melee unit, might it be civilian units, whatever).
Secondly, many people have more success in military terms due to the current system. There isn't any real challenge in defeating the AI in Civ5.
You can even break a stalemate in many cases by just sending out a worker. The AI will try to capture it, thus giving up its defense positions.
And finally, you will get your worker back. How much of an "intellectual challenge" is that?

With a uupt a sufficiently large stack (due to say ai production bonuses) can overcome all but the most suicidal of strategic/pseudo tactical errors.
Exactly. Therefore, a uupt system benefits the AI. 1upt benefits the human player, as if he wouldn't have enough advantages already.

No it isn't, for heavens sake. You may have some concept that might, in principle, someday be really nice with a completely different program. If it doesn't actually work with the program that you have, however, it fails. So I don't separate the two and I think it's important not to. If your idea requires a better AI than the one that you can provide it's just not a good idea, regardless of theory. This isn't bored deity players; it is players of all skill levels observing that this game got extremely easy compared to previous ones, and that the AI doesn't provide a challenge.
I completely agree.

I agree that a tweak or two certainly won't fix it but it amazes me that there are a few tweaks that could have been done that would have improved the AI in a tiny way that weren't done.
Quite confusing, no?
We might assume that there are some reasons for this.

Most development companies I've had experience with split their development staff between patch work and work on new versions or in this case new expansions/DLC. The real question I suppose is how much is dedicated to each.

Unfortunately, we are way beyond this question.
Before release we were promised that combat wouldn't any longer be about "just conquering cities".
Today, we know that this is just plainly wrong.

The AI is just not able to grasp the concept of building "fronts" in the countryside, although this was one of the big promises.
And no game element would even call for this. Still, it is all about cities. Hell, we even don't have to care for interrupted connections to our resources, because they are magically beamed to whereever we need them.

The developers weren't able to deliver what they'd promised. And there isn't the slightest indication that they are trying to do so now.
What they are trying is to band-aid things, resulting in game concepts constantly changing.
 
It doesn't work because it nerfs any sort of production mechanic, turning what was a series of good empire building strategic games into an inferior tactical wargame.

1UPT isn't flawed. The AI being dumb is what is the problem. SoD WAS FLAWED and its the single reason I grew to hate playing civ 4. Build up a strong enough stack and you win. True skill, chaps!

How can anyone complain that 1UPT doesn't work when we all came from a game that had one of the most broken combat strategies that was never fixed? Build stack, walk to city, right click anything in your path, GG.

True skill, right? Totally beats out 1UPT. The reason 1UPT is even being discussed as a failure is because the AI fails at having to strategically utilize it. The AI isn't any worse than it was in civ 4, its just has to do more with considerably less of an 'I-WIN' model to go off of (read: the ability to have stacks of doom).

So to sum it up, it was not obvious that 1upt wouldn't work - and it infact works out great if you play against a human player. The AI just is terribly programmed, that's not 1upt's fault. Just like its not the AIs fault that stacks of doom were so broken. The AI didnt control the stack of doom design, they just utilized it - not even well. It didn't take skill to work a stack of doom.
 
Build up a strong enough stack and you win. True skill, chaps!
.

Yes that requires skill. I've played the game for 3 years and still struggle to build a big enough stack. I've read tons of forum games and strategy guides for Civ4. I know the tech tree by heart and all the civics and lots of the source-code. Yet, building that stack is always difficult. In Civ5 it didn't take me a week to beat the game at the highest difficulty.
 
Well, I regard any design element which cannot be handled correctly by the AI as inherently broken, not only flawed.
While I would argue that the AI is the weak link in this chain, I would also concede that there is no way to correct 1UPT without either allowing stacking or raping people's computers. The game is slow enough, as it is... giving it 12x as many tiles to compensate for the 1UPT and unit-speed would make it unimaginably worse.
 
I just had a quick look at the credits:

37 artists
6 graphics programmers
3 audio programmers
2 AI programmers

Sounds about right.

:lol:

Doesn't look like the mix you'd expect, does it?
 
1 upt is silly on a map the scale of CIV, i.e. the whole world. Actually not just silly, but really silly.
 
A couple of things.

First, whether SoD or 1UPT is more or less realistic depends a lot (and I mean a LOT) on which era you're in. Up until something like WWI SoD's were the norm - the generals would lead their armies around, trying to find an advantageous place to engage the enemy. However, since then that is not what happens in large-scale conflicts. Either you have huge battlefronts (like in WWI and WWII), which 1UPT is much closer to modelling*, or you have heavily assymetric conflicts like Vietnam where the sides don't even use the same rules, which doesn't fit either system. In other words neither system works for all of history, so either you have to have a change of systems around the time you hit machinegun-level tech or you'll have to accept an unrealistic system for part of the game.

Then there's the question of what modern home computers can handle. If you've played a game like Hearts of Iron you should know that it's quite possible to have AI that can handle combat simulations that are hugely more complex than what Civ has (without making any other comparisons), and that's in a real-time game as opposed to turn-based.

And to go even further, it's not even that hard to come up with some very basic rules that would improve AI 1UPT play immensely. You don't even need theatres or the like, just basic formations: dividing units into "frontline" and "rear" elements and telling the rear units to stay behind the frontlines or out of reach of enemy frontline units would do wonders. In my mind there is no doubt that it's possible to create an AI that would at least avoid rushing cannons into melee without making a normal PC helplessly bogged down. With an appropriate level of abstraction you could probably set up a neural net and have the AI fight itself through a few million battles and get something better than what we have now.

But anyway, I'm just some dude on the Internet so don't mind my ramblings.

* Every strategic boardgame of the hex-and-counter type covering the modern era I have ever encountered (and I doubt there are any exceptions) has very strict stacking limits. Rarely as low as one counter per hex (though I'm sure there are some), but also rarely more than two or three - there are certainly none that work on the SoD mode where you gather up the whole German east front army and march on Moscow with one giant pile of counters. Additionally, most games that cover older eras where SoD is a good model have at least some focus on the logistics of supply, something which is completely absent from the Civ games (unfortunately, IMO, but some things have to be sacrificed for playability). One of the things I would like to mod if I had the patience is an operational range for units so you don't get the ridiculous "single scout mapping most of the world before discovering writing" and ships that can stay out at sea indefinitely on the other side of the world from your nearest base.
 
Quote: It's kind of a kick in the pants when the dev's put considerable resources into new DLC while the current game is so inherently flawed. If they could improve (God-forbid, perfect?) the plain-vanilla version, I'd be all over add'l DLC like flies on honey. As it stands, I can't justify pouring good money onto bad.

Don't you get it? The possibility of a revenue stream is what allows the company to PAY people to continue working on developing the original product. And on the subject of incomplete release, it seems to me that at some point the company has to release, ready or not, if they are going to make the money to allow them to pay all those people who worked on the development. It really is not a plot or a personal affront, it is just a matter of people needing to get paid. If you feel like you don't want to put money into DLC then don't. Just don't forget the the DLC in development is probably paying for the folks working to refine the vanilla game. Personally, I will probably wait for the release of the first expansion pack--my experience with III and IV makes me certain there will be several before we get to VI. I will say here what I have said several times before, I feel like I got every single dollar's worth of entertainment value I expected out of my investment and then some. I am delighted that they continue to develop and refine the original as they work on DLC and expansion.
 
1 upt is silly on a map the scale of CIV, i.e. the whole world. Actually not just silly, but really silly.

Yes, scale!

I'm working on a Russian front WW2 historical mod. @25 miles/hex, and corp/army sized units make the front mostly a line of units. If the same map was used with division sized units there would be 3-4X the number of units, which might still work, but would be much messier. With the scale set reasonably, 1UPT works great. And for the first time ever, paratroopers are useful!


A general solution would be to make the total number of ground combat units proportional to city size. In older civs there was some encoding of city size something like:

huge = 4
large = 3
small = 2
tiny = 1

This could be used to determine the max size of the army. So a city with population of.. 20.. allows 4 ground units to exist. Cities have many tiles compared to this number of units. Obviously units will pool along the front, so can still run into gridlock, but the extent is much less. Gridlock is a real problem, and some is to be expected. Anyone who has seen "A Bridge Too Far" can attest to this!

The patch is going to add another hex between cities. That along with a total ground unit cap should work well, so long as the AI can deal with the unit cap (eg not building 90% support units).
 
It was obvious. I was certainly scratching my head and asked myself how they were going to pull it off before release. Few games have impressive AI, previous Civ titles were never better than adequate, and they were only adequate because the designers avoided systems that are much easier for humans than AIs.
AI isn't the only problem: massive military buildup can produce unmanageable clutter and all fixes I can think of are problematic with regard to pacing and production speed.

A game system being more demanding on a low level is a BAD thing. More sophisticated controls in action-oriented titles wouldn't go down well if they made normal walking a chore and impossible for the AIs.
Games need a sane baseline that's easy to implement well, THEN opportunities to outplay that. In previous titles, stacks going straight to the nearest enemy city was such a crude, suboptimal-but-servicable baseline.

*

I agree that the concept may work slightly better if maps were bigger - enough that tactical movement becomes a bigger consideration than units tripping over each other. What I don't know is whether this requires so fine granularity that switching to a slow-moving real time formula would be better and whether either is technically feasible without unreasonable concessions.
 
Every poll on here supports 1UPT by a wide margin.

Oh and it works fine. I have played a lot of games and never seent the carpet of doom. looks like someone loaded a mod that adjusted production to me.

Post them, because I haven't seen many past the first few weeks, where all you're getting is first impressions.
 
I was very enthusiastic about 1upt because I liked Panzer General and Battle Isle a lot. But now I don't play CiV any more because it just doesn't work as it should. Although in PG and BI the AI had some bonusses there were just scenarios in a campaign. On each map there was a point where the stalemate ended to your favour and you could advance to the next mission where you had a new challange. This is the same in CiV but it's too easy to wipe out the AI troops and win the whole game. It is not very satisfying if you can beat the game so easily on immortal. In PG or BI one map takes about one hour, a game of CiV takes one night. In Civ IV I can win about 80% on Monarch, in CiV I can win 95% on Immortal. The AI is just so bad that it really doesn't work!

Another bad thing about 1upt is blocking and movement. It's just boring to micromanage every single move and makes no fun in peacetimes. I don't want to spend hours just moving every single unit. One game of Civ IV takes only half the time a game of CiV takes and it's all because 1upt.
 
I think a number of design decisions were wrong and it's hard to see how pleasant it could be to play 1upt until these are fixed. The design decisions would be ...

Non-combat units should be removed from the 1upt limitation or removed entirely from the map
Combat unit abilities could be better
Mass movement of units is not addressed
Blocking by neutrals/allies is not addressed
There is practically no restriction on either command or supply, either of which could prevent a carpet of doom
The AI probably needs many more concepts to deal with the fog of war, such as memory of enemy forces across turns and scouting
Embarkation

The difficulty I see is that the Firaxis development team don't look like a big team of top programmers with a healthy budget. By looking at the product, it seems as if they're a small group of programmers trying to turn round a failing product with limited time and money. This suggests to me that they're not going to come up with fantastically efficient and intelligent AI in the near future.
 
Answering your question: No, it wasn't obvious, but it was quite predictable. 1upt isn't a concept originally designed to strategic games (or small maps). I think the main problems lie in pathfinding, unit positioning and map scale.

I also think that the stacking system used in Civ4 wasn't good enough, but it only needed a few tweaks to work wonders. Before adopting 1upt as a goal, the designers should have tried those options first and in this order, IMHO:

1. Implement collateral damage for all units. This can be easily done in Civ4, by the way, through modding, so it didn't take too much to try this alternative and evaluate it. There are many ways to balance this feature as to add meaningfull diferences between stacking or spreading your army.

2. Implement some sort of bonus to surrounding troops. ROM successfully implemented this feature. I don't quite like it, but it surely prevents SoD to some extent, and effectively adds some tactics to the game. Another feature that wouldn't take too much to try and see if it played well.

3. Place a limit on the maximum number of troops you can have at any given time. Even Space Empires (a 4x title) have this implemented by default. It could vary accordingly to the map size, or you could change it manually if you wanted to. I don't like this option personally, but it is a option nevertheless. Every RTS (even Total Annihilation) have it.

I think the last option should have been to artificially limit the maximum number of units per tiles. Options number 01 and 02 could have been tested and evaluated in Civ4 without too much effort.
 
SOD sucked and was the main reason I would stop playing Civ IV for extended periods of time. The AI would just mass produce units and you defend one SOD after another.

SOD was just sheer numbers where 1UP seems more based on unit placement and support than just unit spamming.
 
That blanket of doom pic sure does get around. Used by Sulla and pretty much everyone else to show how laughably flawed 1UPT is. Question: how often do you actually see that in a game?

Every single game I have ever played at Deity level. Usually, it's even worse, with the whole carpet extending 4-5 tiles out into the ocean. I (and presumably others) just don't take screenshots of it every time.
 
1upt does not work and it's basic of whole game. Why do you not get it? They should be prefer chosen straight tactical minimaps for battling because AI can handle them better. Now there is only one big tactical map, whole game is one tactical map and game is dumb. I just get bored with zombie hordes and wait civ6 and hopefully this mistake is fixed then.

For me it's same SoD or CoD, main point is that AI is clever or at least less stupid.
 
I have an idea.

Lets allow ranged units and non-ranged units to be on the same tile together, but only one of each. So you can have non-ranged units supported by ranged units. I'm tired of not being able to hit somebody with my crossbowman or archer to support a non-ranged attack.

So in other words, 2UPT exceptions for certain military units and unlimited UPT for civilian units.
 
It's interesting that whenever 1UPT is ever discussed, it's only in relation to combat. I don't see any convincing argument as to why 1UPT should apply to civilian units. I can't really imagine that anyone enjoys workers routes being blocked in your own territory by foreign units presence.
 
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