Was It Obvious 1UPT Wouldn't Work?

I was talking about playing against the Civ IV:BtS AI that a bunch of you keep insisting is so much better than the Civ 5 one. It's not any better at all. It's just able to use stacks, and the Civ 5 one can't. The Civ 5 one needs to be smarter, I'll agree, but it's not 'dumber' than the Civ IV one. It just simply can't get away with being as dumb.

Again, playing against a human is a completely different thing and not relevant to an AI comparison.
You are 100% right in saying that people confuse working with being better and that a player ( human or not ) in a SoD game can get away more easily than in a 1upt game ... but only if you assure that the players ( humans or not ) are all using baseline strats ( Hulk builds SoD, Hulk marches to city, Hulk destroys in the SoD version ) ... if you can't assure that in both SoD and 1upt games ,you can't assure anything about the relative brain power needs without stating explicitiely what strats are all the diferent players using. Fortunately or not, both the last game with SoD from this series and the last 1upt game of this series were furnished by the devs with a baseline AI ...

On the second paragraph, I insist: you are wrong in assuming that playing against a human is somehow a qualitatively diferent issue of playing against a AI ,especially after seeing how dumb some humans can be at times :D That is why the MP discussion is relevant: good play is good play, bad play is bad play , no matter what entity issues the orders ;)
 
umm, short answer no.

longer answer:

I find myself enjoying civ5 1upt more then I enjoyed the civ4 uupt combat system. In civ4 (due to braindead ai thankyou r_rolo1) you would just build stack march to city kill, and repeat. Once you had sufficiently large stack you were pretty much untouchable (apart from your sucidide catipults - what's was with that btw? you'd think they would sit safely out of range and bombard away, leaving front line troops to take the brunt of casualties).

In civ5 unfavourable terrain plus city bombardment adds at least some semblance of challenge in certain circumstances.

r_rolo1 sounds like there is actually quite alot of sophistication possible in a uupt system against an expert opponent - something I have sadly never experienced as have only played on single player.

The idea that a 1upt system is fundamentally broken in a civ context is imo just flatout wrong. After all 1upt is commonly cited as favourite part of civ5 by people who actually like the game, so its not broken for those people at the very least.

With each system you are just trading one set of strengths and weaknesses for an other. Which you prefer depends on your tolerences for said weaknesses and how much you like said strengths and of course how well the system is implemented/balanced (a whole other story, given the maturity of one unnamed game and the rawness of another unnamed game).

The major difference I see is that incompatence is punished more in a 1upt as one wrong move from a unit can get them wiped out instead of living to fight another day (which btw happens to me even against braindead ai, due to terrain plus impatience). So for the 1upt a greater minimum quality of ai is required for it to work for the minimal level of challenge (ie not entirely suicidal) for a single player context.

With a uupt a sufficiently large stack (due to say ai production bonuses) can overcome all but the most suicidal of strategic/pseudo tactical errors.
 
I am not disputing any of that, SpearMan153. I am disputing the assertion that Mavfin is doing about the brain power use comparison between 2 gameset rules without taking in account how smart are your enemies... as Civ V is not only to wait in the hills until the current braindead AI decides to send their artillery to undefensible positions, Civ IV is not only making SoD and go Hulk on the current braindead AI ;)

About 1upt working in Civ V? I'm really torn about that. It can definitely work, but it needs more space between cities, more units in the earlier days and less units in the later days than it has now to have a chance to show it's true potential. As it is now, it clogs too much in late days while not giving much of actual tactical options in the early days, due to both lack of manouvering space and of units.
 
Was it obvious that 1 UPT was going to work well enough to earn much more support than ire?
Yes.
 
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Was it obvious that 1 UPT was going to work well enough to earn much more support than ire?
Yes.

And how do you figure that out? Because as far as I can see that is a statement completely unsupported by evidence.
 
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And how do you figure that out? Because as far as I can see that is a statement completely unsupported by evidence.

Every poll on here supports 1UPT by a wide margin.

Oh and it works fine. I have played a lot of games and never seent the carpet of doom. looks like someone loaded a mod that adjusted production to me.
 
1upt works very well. The fact that the AI isn't very smart about it is a completely seperate issue.

The AI will never, ever be able to challenge Diety players straight up with no bonus. If you are expecting that then do yourself a favor and stop expecting it. However, I think the AI can be allot smarter than it is now. In fact I don't think it would be all that hard to make it smarter than it is now. I've done AI programming as a hobby before and if I had the time and the source code I think it would be fun to improve it.

To me, it feels like the developer had an estimate of X days to build a good AI and management said no, to big, you actually have X/4 days to build it. The reason I say that is because there are some really simple behaviors to improve the tactial AI that could have been implemented which would have been simple to do that weren't.
 
1upt works very well. The fact that the AI isn't very smart about it is a completely seperate issue.

No it isn't, for heavens sake. You may have some concept that might, in principle, someday be really nice with a completely different program. If it doesn't actually work with the program that you have, however, it fails. So I don't separate the two and I think it's important not to. If your idea requires a better AI than the one that you can provide it's just not a good idea, regardless of theory. This isn't bored deity players; it is players of all skill levels observing that this game got extremely easy compared to previous ones, and that the AI doesn't provide a challenge.
 
It is 1upt that help the Spartan against Persia! I see people complaining about streamline but 1upt is the opposite!

And 1upt is also used in games like Warcrafts, Age of Empires.. ! Currently I mod health of unit to 20 to see if it help in 1upt and turn-based (unit is not easy destroyed by just one "wrong move").
 
1upt works very well. The fact that the AI isn't very smart about it is a completely seperate issue.

The AI will never, ever be able to challenge Diety players straight up with no bonus. If you are expecting that then do yourself a favor and stop expecting it. However, I think the AI can be allot smarter than it is now. In fact I don't think it would be all that hard to make it smarter than it is now. I've done AI programming as a hobby before and if I had the time and the source code I think it would be fun to improve it.

To me, it feels like the developer had an estimate of X days to build a good AI and management said no, to big, you actually have X/4 days to build it. The reason I say that is because there are some really simple behaviors to improve the tactial AI that could have been implemented which would have been simple to do that weren't.

In the upcoming patch notes, there was a statement that they understand the AI's weakness regarding warfare, and will address it in an upcoming patch. IMO, they underestimated the difficulty in programming the AI to conduct warfare successsfully in a 1UPT system.

On another note, I agree with you that 1UPT is implemented properly. Be careful what we ask for because the game will become significantly more difficult with a well-programmed AI.
 
1UPT is good in theory but bad in practice.

It's always funny to hear posters say "It's only a tweak or two away from being fixed!"

This is utter BS of course. It will take a lot of time and money to fix it and if you think the suits at 2K Games are going to finance this rather than some more crappy DLC then I've got a bridge to sell you. :lol:
 
Well maybe the solution for AI combat is give it combat bonus in harder level, like the Total War series.
 
On another note, I agree with you that 1UPT is implemented properly. Be careful what we ask for because the game will become significantly more difficult with a well-programmed AI.

I look forward to the day when I pull down a new patch and play on the skill level I am currently playing at and I get my butt kicked. I hope Firaxis delivers this.
 
1UPT is good in theory but bad in practice.

It's always funny to hear posters say "It's only a tweak or two away from being fixed!"

I agree that a tweak or two certainly won't fix it but it amazes me that there are a few tweaks that could have been done that would have improved the AI in a tiny way that weren't done.

This is utter BS of course. It will take a lot of time and money to fix it and if you think the suits at 2K Games are going to finance this rather than some more crappy DLC then I've got a bridge to sell you. :lol:

Most development companies I've had experience with split their development staff between patch work and work on new versions or in this case new expansions/DLC. The real question I suppose is how much is dedicated to each.
 
The carpet of doom wasn't obvious to the developers. I think 1UPT has merit, and I prefer it to the stack of doom of previous games. A better alternative to the SoD would've allowed stacking, but given a penalty to stacks over, say, 3 units. Penalties could include collateral damage or outright annihilation of units over a stack limit if a stacked defender is defeated. 1UPT is certainly not perfect, especially when maneuvering multiple units through a bottleneck.
 
I agree that a tweak or two certainly won't fix it but it amazes me that there are a few tweaks that could have been done that would have improved the AI in a tiny way that weren't done.



Most development companies I've had experience with split their development staff between patch work and work on new versions or in this case new expansions/DLC. The real question I suppose is how much is dedicated to each.

It's kind of a kick in the pants when the dev's put considerable resources into new DLC while the current game is so inherently flawed. If they could improve (God-forbid, perfect?) the plain-vanilla version, I'd be all over add'l DLC like flies on honey. As it stands, I can't justify pouring good money onto bad.
 
AI coding is still needed for stacks, because it has to think of composition, target tech and production levels, which cities to target, best course to travel, etc. That still takes quite a lot of processing, nothing like your simple go to city>bombard>attack routine, just that the processing has to be a lot more long-term and deep (in the game) for it to work properly.
I suggest that you crack open the Civ4 SDK and take a look at what is actually going on in the AI. The Combat AI does not perform all of the tasks you mentioned.

Target Technologies are tasked by the Research AI, which operates at about the same capacity as the Civ5 Research AI.

Production Levels are tasked by the individual City AI's, and are limited by the city location- handled by the "Settler" unit AI.

Stack Composition does not exist to the AI. The AI will stack units based on their combat strength, and nothing else. It's why you see Horsemen stacked with Archers (which goes against the purpose of using horsemen), and Artillery stacked with Machine Guns (Neither of which can kill units).

City Targeting is largely random, and is actually just a modifier on top of the "Movement" and "Attack" functions. Speaking of "movement"... "Best course to travel" isn't even kind of handled by the AI. The AI in Civ4 was moving individual units around based on what terrain they were adjacent to, and the general direction of the nearest enemy. The Civ4 combat AI can be explained in terms of "Move Towards Friendly Units, Move Towards Enemy Units, Move Towards Tiles with Defensive Bonuses." The only reason Civ4 Combat AI works better than Civ5 combat AI is because they act the same, and SoD doesn't exist anymore.

All of this said, the system has it's flaws. Overall, the problems with 1UPT aren't necessarily problems with 1UPT itself, but the supporting infrastructure that 1UPT sits on. The major issue that I've found that a lot of people have with 1UPT (myself included) is that there weren't enough changes to game mechanics to support it properly.

There are not enough tiles per map (TPM). When you play a "Standard" size map on previous titles, and compare them to Civ5, the maps feel smaller in the latest iteration. In reality, the maps are almost exactly the same size- but it's a noticeable issue. This is because in 1-4, the "base" movement for a unit was 1 tile; in 5, the base movement is 2 tiles.

By doubling the speed of every unit, you have essentially halved the size of the map. If the map sizes were increased to match the unit speed, the impact on map-size could have been partially mitigated. The other problem with the TPM is actually FROM the stacking issues; in previous titles, 1 tile could hold an infinite number of troops.

Nobody complained when a stack of 3-6 units showed up at their doorstep- the problem is when a stack of 20-30 units shows up. 6 units already feels like a horde, so this should have been the baseline for how many units should occupy an area. If they wanted to maintain the same number of tiles, they should have allowed stacking of up to six units on a tile. If they wanted to use 1UPT, they should have increased the TPM by 6x. This would have mitigated the movement-speed issue, but would have wrecked the minimum standards to play the game- reducing the majority of players to playing on tiny maps. However, cities would have had to take up more than one tile (preferably six) and should have to be conquered in "bits."

Additionally, the AI seems to have a hard time handling 1UPT. This is largely because the Combat AI seems to be copy-pasted from Civ4. The AI's inability to properly support a naval invasion, and apparent unwillingness to transport a military across any body of water larger than a small lake is typical of it's inability to produce naval transports. It almost seems as if AI units will only embark if they can also reach the area on land, but the trip is longer or requires waiting.

The second issue, when the AI is trying to handle 1UPT, is that the units can't stack, but the AI seems to try to do it anyways. When you throw in the additional production costs, you get the front-loaded attacks that the AI throws at you in wartime. You show up at their borders, a "carpet" of 3-7 units attack you, and you steamroll over their cities because they have no military anymore. The AI doesn't understand the concept of "Reserve Troops", or lateral grouping and deconfliction. Every unit walks around like it is the only unit in the world, and every unit likes to think it's the only unit available to attack and defend.

I am convinced that the only reason units get grouped together in carpets are because they are leaving from similar locations, and the individual movement scripts just keep preferring the same tiles over and over again- giving the illusion that units actually care what's around them.

So, could 1UPT have worked? Yes. Your computer would throw itself out of a window every time your mouse even hovered over the Civ5 icon because of how demanding the game would be, but yes. Since they expanded the scope of the game from "Handle Strategic, Simulate Operational and Tactical", to "Handle Strategic and Operational, Simulate Tactical", they still need to expand the game mechanics to reflect that; but yes, 1UPT could have worked. The AI would need to be updated to understand how to utilize basic concepts that were added in Civ5, but yes... 1UPT could have worked.

Unfortunately, these facts weren't considered when 1UPT was implemented. It's not that Civ5 took a step backwards with 1UPT, took a step backwards with the AI, or took a step backwards with map sizes. On the contrary, Civ5 took a step forwards in complexity with 1UPT... and then left everything else the same. They may as well have tried to release Civ4 on a floppy disk.
 
IMO, they underestimated the difficulty in programming the AI to conduct warfare successsfully in a 1UPT system.

I just had a quick look at the credits:

37 artists
6 graphics programmers
3 audio programmers
2 AI programmers

Sounds about right.

:lol:
 
hmm...

imho 1upt seems to work far better than SOD, however, 1upt is not easy for AI, look how long it took to program chess (which is 1upt) to the degree that it beat a human player, and chess is a very simple game, in principle... much simpler than civ, so it will take a lot of work to program a good AI... same goes for the game, go.

I think Fraxis have taken a step forward, and now they need to concentrate on the AI to improve it... it will take a lot of work, and if they have any sense, they will employ competant chess players (or those experienced in programming chess) to program the AI for ciV and it's follow-ups... if this is done right, I believe the game will become exceptional. It will, however, take time, and the patience of us, the players.

The only possible exception that would make any sense, is possibly allowing 2 civilians on 1 tile (so, for example, you could cut the time to build an improvement, or have 2 GP in the same city).

Going back to SOD, in any form, would, imho, be a large step backwards.
 
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