Crime & Punishment

[Hydromancerx]

I would like to expand the Crime and Punishment buildings. This is what I have so far ...

High Crime (+ - -Local Instability) <------> Low Crime (- + +Local Instability)

Crime Buildings

Old
- Bandit's Hideout
- Mercenary Camp
- Mercenary Stables
- Poacher's Camp
- Outlaw's Saloon (Re-Named Saloon)

New
- Assassin's Den
- Smuggler's Shanty
- Pirate's Cove
- Rebel's Camp
- Mob Storefront
- Drug Lord's Mansion
- Chop Shop
- Terrorist's Compound

Punishment Buildings

Old
- Chief's Hut
- Town Watch
- Dungeon
- Police Station
- Jail
- Maximum Security Prison
- Insane Asylum
- Intelligence Agency
- Security Bureau
- Security Center

New
- Stocks
- Gallows
- Guillotine
- Sheriff's Office
- Police Box

The question is what should the new buildings stats be and how sould the old buildings be tweaked?

Also should any other buildings increase "Crime" such as Banks or Ports.

 

[DRJ]

Also should any other buildings increase "Crime" such as Banks or Ports.

You were absolutely right to put in no questionmark at all...

Spoiler :

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson

 

[Hydromancerx]

@DRJ
I ment more in terms of Bank robbery, not Banks ripping off people.

 

[DRJ]

But they do get angry if they lose homes because bubbles created, "A-rated" by (and for) banksters burst? After all, we all get socialized risks for privatized profits. Here in Germany the taxpayer have to pay billions for those guys - for years and years to come. So this effect of banksterism should definitely be factored into the banks stats, don't you agree?



<tv-ancor>...so the multibillion dollar deficit will either be printed out or be put onto the taxpayers...

<Homer> Stupid neoliberalism! Deregulated those financial squids!
But... he-he... now even I can afford a house!
*opens letters*
Oh no -- foreclosure? D'oh!!!

 

[Praetyre]

Specific forms of monetary policy are not represented in Civ except in a very broad sense by Economy Civics (and even then, there's nothing to say a Mercantilist or Regulated economy couldn't work off a hard currency), so it would make no sense to give Banks a penalty to happiness based on specific and very recent forms of monetary policy dependent upon a specific form of fractional reserve banking. As far as I know, the Italian Renaissance wasn't known for giant bankster bailouts; the big issues there were over things like what the length of women's sleeves should be and who the Pope was.

 

[Koshling]

Specific forms of monetary policy are not represented in Civ except in a very broad sense by Economy Civics (and even then, there's nothing to say a Mercantilist or Regulated economy couldn't work off a hard currency), so it would make no sense to give Banks a penalty to happiness based on specific and very recent forms of monetary policy dependent upon a specific form of fractional reserve banking. As far as I know, the Italian Renaissance wasn't known for giant bankster bailouts; the big issues there were over things like what the length of women's sleeves should be and who the Pope was.

How about a random event after which can only occur after you discover globalism and the effect of which is a global financial crisis, which causes a loss of currency reserves and unhappiness in all cities for some number of turns for all players who have certain civics when the event goes off (free market or merchantilism say, and not closed borders)

 

[Praetyre]

There are quite specific reasons behind crisis (which the various schools of economics almost totally disagree with each other on). I can see such an event working, but only as the result of, say, another concurrent disaster, like hackers erasing stock exchange records or excess use of a new mission to import counterfeit currency into an enemy nation to increase their inflation.

 

[DRJ]

It's not an event, it's endemic, the problem is that infinite growth isn't possible with limited resources and limited tech progress (or: the inovation rate has to be higher than the economical growth, which is not the fact, today). So, to make the money, the finance industry created lots of billions out of thin air by a financilisation of the profits of the real economy (factories and farms and stuff). The big "capitalistic" problem this "derivated" money creates that it has to be fertile, or it puffs back into air by inflation. So too much money for not enough real economy to invest in. Once the majority of "rich" realize that there is no "save haven" for most of the money the money bubble bursts or the poor get the bill (which, done too often ends in fascism or anarchy [or maybe even fair communes]).
Civishly speaken this tendency is no "event", it's immanent within the system -- or as it was said before, with a slightly different intend maybe: "it's the economy, stupid". And throughout history a lot of countries have gotten bankrupt, so to limit the effects just on the said event is thought too short.

 

[Praetyre]

That's an excellent analysis, DRJ. But the reason that "extra" capital can be created in the first place is because banks can hold funds in excess of their actual physical reserves (for instance, under a 10% reserve requirement, a bank can hold a billion which merely possessing 100 million in cash). There's nothing in any of the economic civics that *inherently* implies fractional reserve banking, fiat or hard currency, save, of course, Coinage. It's a product of the monetary system, not levels of technology, though the capacity to make it global is obviously recent.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Posting what the current stats are ...

-----

Bandit's Hideout
Cost: 40
Req Tech: Scavenging
Obsolete Tech: Guerrilla Warfare
Req Civic: Banditry

• +5
• Free Looter Promotion
• +10 Local Instability
• Enables Thief, Rogue

-----

Mercenary Camp
Cost: 45
Req Tech: Bronze Working
Obsolete Tech: Nationalism
Req Civic: Survival

• +1% with Copper
• +1% with Iron
• +10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders
• Enables Bandit Footpad

-----

Mercenary Stables
Cost: 25
Req Tech: Horseback Riding
Obsolete Tech: Nationalism
Req Civic: Survival
Req Building: Mercenary Camp and Horse Trainer

• +1
• +1
• +1
• +10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders
• Enables Bandit Rider

-----

Poacher's Camp
Cost: 40
Req Tech: Ecology
Obsolete Tech: Ecological Engineering
Req Building: Good (Carcass) OR Good (Pelts)

• +6
• +2

-----

Saloon
Cost: 225
Req Tech: Railroad
Obsolete Tech: Legalized Gambling

• +2
• +1
• +2
• +1
• +10% Maintenance
• +10 Local Instability
• +1 with Tobacco
• +1 with Alcohol
• New Gunpowder Units Receive +1 Experience Points.

-----

Ok all these need a major overhaul. More on how i can fix it later.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok now for how i would change these ...

-----

Bandit's Hideout
Cost: 40
Req Tech: Scavenging
Obsolete Tech: Guerrilla Warfare
Req Civic: Banditry

• -5
• +5
• Free Looter Promotion
• +5 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Deceiver Leaders
• Enables Thief, Rogue

-----

Mercenary Camp
Cost: 80
Req Tech: Bronze Working
Obsolete Tech: Nationalism
Req Civic: None

• -5
• +5
• +5 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders
• New Melee Units Receive +1 Experience Points.
• Enables Bandit Footpad

-----

Mercenary Stables
Cost: 80
Req Tech: Horseback Riding
Obsolete Tech: Nationalism
Req Civic: None
Req Building: Mercenary Camp and Horse Trainer

• +1
• -5
• +5
• +5 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders
• New Mounted Units Receive +1 Experience Points.
• Enables Bandit Rider

-----

Saloon
Cost: 320
Req Tech: Railroad
Obsolete Tech: Legalized Gambling

• +1
• +1
• +1
• +1 with Tobacco
• +1 with Alcohol
• +1 with Alcohol
• +1 with Tobacco
• -20
• +20
• +20 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Aggressive Leaders
• New Gunpowder Units Receive +1 Experience Points.
• Enables Sharpshooter

-----

Poacher's Camp
Cost: 640
Req Tech: Ecology
Obsolete Tech: Ecological Engineering
Req Building: Good (Carcass) OR Good (Pelts)

• +2
• +1
• -25
• +25
• +25 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Deceiver Leaders

-----

What you guys think?

 

[strategyonly]

No offense but why the - i was just going to make a statement in the other ideas area, that "we" need more + because its very very very rare now in this mod to get a GP and for that matter a GP

If a country uses a Bandit/Looter/Rogue/etc or a Mercenary, aren't they really getting MORE from those counterparts, but at a cost? ie, look at BlackWater Merc's. Infact if i was 30 yrs younger, i think i would have joined them. Cause everyone needs a GOOD Sniper.

 

[Hydromancerx]

No offense but why the - i was just going to make a statement in the other ideas area, that "we" need more + because its very very very rare now in this mod to get a GP and for that matter a GP

If a country uses a Bandit/Looter/Rogue/etc or a Mercenary, aren't they really getting MORE from those counterparts, but at a cost? ie, look at BlackWater Merc's. Infact if i was 30 yrs younger, i think i would have joined them. Cause everyone needs a GOOD Sniper.

I am following this equation taken from the maintenance thread ...

High Crime (+ - -Local Instability) <------> Low Crime (- + +Local Instability)

Criminal buildings like Bandits or Mercenaries can easily give away all your secrets. Law Enforcement on the other side of the spectrum would give you + Espionage but cost you a lot of gold to do so.

In short the Crime buildings need to balance out the Law buildings so the Law buildings have more purpose. No to mention Crime buildings give special units and need a downside to the cool units.

But the main reason its - is because not everyone plays with revolutions on. So this is a way to represent crime even if you don't have revolutions on. Otherwise there would be no downside to the crime buildings with revolutions off.

 

[strategyonly]

I am following this equation taken from the maintenance thread ...

High Crime (+ - -Local Instability) <------> Low Crime (- + +Local Instability)

Criminal buildings like Bandits or Mercenaries can easily give away all your secrets. Law Enforcement on the other side of the spectrum would give you + Espionage but cost you a lot of gold to do so.

In short the Crime buildings need to balance out the Law buildings so the Law buildings have more purpose. No to mention Crime buildings give special units and need a downside to the cool units.

But the main reason its - is because not everyone plays with revolutions on. So this is a way to represent crime even if you don't have revolutions on. Otherwise there would be no downside to the crime buildings with revolutions off.

Good point, thx for the explanation.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok now for more types of Crime buildings ...

-----

Assassin's Den
Cost: 80
Req Tech: Code of Laws
Obsolete Tech: Riffling

• +1
• -10
• +10
• +10 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Deceiver Leaders
• New Melee Units Receive +2 Experience Points.
• Enables Assassin

-----

Smuggler's Shanty
Cost: 80
Req Tech: Drug Trade and Ship Building
Obsolete Tech: Railroad
Required Building: Good (Drugs)

• -1
• -10
• +10
• +5 with Alcohol
• +5 with Hemp
• +5 with Tobacco
• +1 with Alcohol
• +1 with Hemp
• +1 with Tobacco
• +10 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Deceiver Leaders
• New Wooden Ship Units Receive +1 Experience Points.
• Enables Smuggler

-----

Pirate's Cove
Cost: 160
Req Tech: Naval Cannon AND Astronomy
Obsolete Tech: Screw Propeller
Req Terrain: Coastal City

• +2
• +1
• -15
• +15
• +15 Local Instability
• +1 with Alcohol
• +1 with Gold
• +1 with Silver
• +1 with Alcohol
• +10% Production Speed with Military Leaders
• New Wooden Ship Units Receive +2 Experience Points.
• Enables Pirate Ship, Pirate

-----

Mob Storefront
Cost: 320
Req Tech: Automatic Weapons
Obsolete Tech: Thought Scanning

• +2
• +1
• -20
• +20
• +20 Local Instability
• +1 with Alcohol
• +1 with Tobacco
• +1 with Alcohol
• +1 with Tobacco
• +10% Production Speed with Military Leaders
• New Wheeled Units Receive +1 Experience Points.
• Enables Mobster Car

What ya think?

 

[strategyonly]

I really like these ideas, take a look at a mod, i cant remember the name its has something to do about alot of Crime and stuff, and i really like the section of the MOB stuff, just like in the early 20's and 30's in the USA (well for that matter alot of the world).

I also like the enables you are making, i believe there are modcomps on that also someplace, but i dont have the time to look at all that, sorry.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Thanks. Do you think more of these should have and/or ? Like the terrorist probably should have some or the Drug Lord .

One problem i am finding is the Saloon for the Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter comes at Matchlock but the Saloon comes at Railroads. I would also like an "Outlaw" units which is a Mounted Cowboy-like unit. Let me know if you find anything for that.

EDIT: I am going to add some.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Had to split up the posts ...

-----

Chop Shop
Cost: 320
Req Tech: Motorized Transportation
Obsolete Tech: Skyroads
Required Building: Good (Automobiles)

• +1
• +1
• -20
• +20
• +20 Local Instability
• New Wheeled Units Receive +2 Experience Points.
• +10% Production Speed with Deceiver Leaders

-----

Rebel's Camp
Cost: 320
Req Tech: Guerrilla Warfare
Obsolete Tech: Military Robotics
Required Resource: Ammunition

• +3
• +1
• -20
• +20
• +20 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Military Leaders
• New Gunpowder Units Receive +2 Experience Points.
• Enables Guerrilla

-----

Drug Lord's Mansion
Cost: 640
Req Tech: Globalization
Obsolete Tech: Smart Drugs
Required Building: Good (Drugs)

• +1
• -1
• -25
• +25
• +10 with Hemp
• +10 with Tobacco
• +1 with Hemp
• +1 with Tobacco
• +25 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Deceiver Leaders

-----

Terrorist's Compound
Cost: 640
Req Tech: Mass Media
Obsolete Tech: ?
Required Resource: Ammunition

• +3
• -2
• -25
• +25
• +25 Local Instability
• +10% Production Speed with Military Leaders
• New Gunpowder Units Receive +3 Experience Points.
• Enables Terrorist

-----

 

[Praetyre]

How about making criminal/terrorist organizations like negative corporations (kind of like what White Lies Black Ops had)? Complete with the capacity to sponsor and fund them to encourage them to attack your enemies and ignore you, and the change of negative events increasing with their presence (terrorist groups, for instance, could blow up your buildings or even your Wonders, or in the worst case scenario, destroy a good chunk of your city (or, if it's a small one, annihilate it altogether) with a small nuclear device.)

 

[Hydromancerx]

How about making criminal/terrorist organizations like negative corporations (kind of like what White Lies Black Ops had)? Complete with the capacity to sponsor and fund them to encourage them to attack your enemies and ignore you, and the change of negative events increasing with their presence (terrorist groups, for instance, could blow up your buildings or even your Wonders, or in the worst case scenario, destroy a good chunk of your city (or, if it's a small one, annihilate it altogether) with a small nuclear device.)

I don't see why both could not co-exist or even fit together.