C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[JosEPh_II]

Remember too that Hydro's Market line of bldgs also generate WW. Couple these with the Gov't and other Civics that have WW in them and WW gets multiplied/added up rather quickly. Regardless whether an Enemy or you have the "thing" (Wonder, bldg, civic, I can't remember) that causes your opponent to eXperience WW at a faster rate. I did have it in one of those early v15 games when I 1st complained about WW.


This WW I've complained about was universal. It made having an over seas war almost impossible to carry out. So if you played on an Island or Archipelago or Custom Continents world map transporting your units to that other landmass was causing you WW even without having fired a shot. So at Home you had to try and build a WW reducing bldg or wonder and then try to build a fighting unit. This had to be repeated through out the whole War and you Will run out of WW reducing stuff. So the angry faces keep mounting until (even in my Non Rev games) you became so crippled that you literally had to let major cities lose pop to get back to a stalemate/even number of happy faces with the angry faces. I shudder to think what it would be like with Rev On.

Maybe this is a good thing? I just can't see it though. I like challenges like everyone else. But I Do want to win at least some of the time on Noble. (I can play at higher levels but I always play Noble for Mod testing, cause it's a level playing field for AI and Player.)

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

Remember too that Hydro's Market line of bldgs also generate WW.

Do you think WW for markets should be completely removed or reduced again? If reduced what type of numbers are we talking about?

 

[climat]

Divine Cult and Intolerant also reduce WW (-25%, -50% respectively).
How about making Volunteer Army reduce WW? Currently it does not.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Do you think WW for markets should be completely removed or reduced again? If reduced what type of numbers are we talking about?

My initial reaction was to say remove the WW from them. And I have reasons for thinking that, But for right now, only the last 3 may need looked at. And that After the Civic changes and Koshling's Unit battle effects.

climat wrote:Divine Cult and Intolerant also reduce WW (-25%, -50% respectively).
How about making Volunteer Army reduce WW? Currently it does not.

I like the suggestion of Vol Army reducing WW. That would effect mid and late game WW.

Unfortunately DC and Intol are so Lame that I never consider them as useful so I don't get their WW reducing help because I see no point in using them at all. All their "other" bad points far outweigh the good they might do in reducing WW.

Another thing is that DC is so early in the game that generally while if it's an even remotely viable choice I'm generally not involved in any war. Just trying to keep the neanders and barbs at bay. And I go to Prophets asap any way.

Intolerant has too many negatives in it and it's whole perception that religion stifles research gives it a "bad taste" like Slavery does for many ppl. It too is generally a short term Civic and would only have limited usage before some other "better" Civic choice becomes available.

Maybe if somehow these 2 Civic choices could be made more game useful/lasting and palatable they would get more usage? And maybe other players use them all the time. All I can say is I don't and I don't see the AI using them as much either. %age wise they are kinda bottom dweller Civics for the AI in my games. Realize this too I'm talking Non REV and Non Vassal games.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I never consider Divine Cult either, it is available at the same time as Prophets but is just not as useful.

 

[little_cyclone]

How about making Volunteer Army reduce WW? Currently it does not.

I disagree. Even tho only the people involved in the military are volunteers in this case, drawing from real life exposure the soldiers still have family members at home who do want their loved ones home and safe and sound in a reasonable amount of time. I'm ok with it not increasing WW, but I'd rather not see it reduce WW either.

I'd also like to see a reduction in military production for Vol Army to represent needing to constantly locate and train volunteers. It would make a decent balance for the extra +5xp for new troops.

I recall the Unmanned civic reduces WW to some extent, I could see that being increased, or the M.A.D. civic, seeing as how the rationale behind that is sheer deterrence, tho I supremely dislike the extra for not using M.A.D.

 

[climat]

I don't use DC, either. It's certainly not useful to me, compared to its contemporary civic, Prophet.

Its advantages are unlimited Priests, lower military support cost, -25% WW, decreasing national unstability, increasing stability with State Religion, and happiness from state religion and many buildings.
1. Religion buildings enable Priests and there aren't room for specialists in early time since growth is more beneficial. So, unlimited Priests is not that useful. (1 free Priest in every city would be more useful than this. )
2. How much it lowers support cost? I have no idea, and I usually don't go to war that early.
3. Regarding stability, I'm not sure it is helpful since I like to have multiple religions in my cities. (It makes cities more rebellious if non-State religion is in.) Not to mention it is irrelevant to players who don't use revolution.
4. Happiness is not an issue in that time.

On the other hand, its disadvantage is -50% in all cities, -25% and in cities except capital, and It is High-upkeep.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I never consider Divine Cult either, it is available at the same time as Prophets but is just not as useful.

It probby can be useful if combined with Slavery. However I have not tried it.

 

[strategyonly]

On the other hand, its disadvantage is -50% in all cities, -25% and in cities except capital, and It is High-upkeep.

Yeah i dont use it at all because of this either, thats too much of a cost to use.

 

[climat]

How about removing all disadvantages of DC and lowering its upkeep to Medium? Is it too extreme? Not that useful, but not that bad civic.
But I assume people will still use Prophet although disadvantages are removed..

 

[JosEPh_II]

DC and Intolerant are 2 Civics I have not tried to adjust yet.

But if you look at the Civ4CivicsInfo file I posted I Have changed Slavery.

I look at Civic use this way for the AI. If 1/3 to 2/3 of the AI use a Civic it's a good Civic. But If the AI uses a Civic almost all the Time, 90% and Above, then I consider it to be OP. If it's used by less than 20% of the AI it probably is design for a specific type Leader Or it has too many negatives for the AI. And if the AI almost Never uses it, it needs some serious look see at what's wrong with the AI wanting to use it.

Is DC supposed to emulate a God Emperor mentality for Leaders like Pacal , Monty, or Ramses for ex.? Or was it intended for a Religiously lead society, or both?

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

DC and Intolerant are 2 Civics I have not tried to adjust yet.

But if you look at the Civ4CivicsInfo file I posted I Have changed Slavery.

I look at Civic use this way for the AI. If 1/3 to 2/3 of the AI use a Civic it's a good Civic. But If the AI uses a Civic almost all the Time, 90% and Above, then I consider it to be OP. If it's used by less than 20% of the AI it probably is design for a specific type Leader Or it has too many negatives for the AI. And if the AI almost Never uses it, it needs some serious look see at what's wrong with the AI wanting to use it.

Is DC supposed to emulate a God Emperor mentality for Leaders like Pacal , Monty, or Ramses for ex.? Or was it intended for a Religiously lead society, or both?

JosEPh

Part of the problem with AI invariance is that all of them are actually the same AI, so they use the same evaluation functions, and therefore tend to arrive at the same conclusions unless they have wildly skewed geographic conditions. It is slightly effected by leader/civ traits, but TBH they don't really influence things that much. Perhaps we need to give more weight to trait multipliers in civic evaluation in the AI code, in order to boost variance? (problem being that since the AIs all have the same stratgey/tactics code at the end of the day, one set really is liekly to be best for them, so artificially making them vary might just lead to more varied, but weaker opponents).

 

[JosEPh_II]

Part of the problem with AI invariance is that all of them are actually the same AI, so they use the same evaluation functions, and therefore tend to arrive at the same conclusions unless they have wildly skewed geographic conditions. It is slightly effected by leader/civ traits, but TBH they don't really influence things that much. Perhaps we need to give more weight to trait multipliers in civic evaluation in the AI code, in order to boost variance? (problem being that since the AIs all have the same stratgey/tactics code at the end of the day, one set really is liekly to be best for them, so artificially making them vary might just lead to more varied, but weaker opponents).

If the Leader Traits only have a minimal influence on how an AI "acts", then why in vanilla CIV IV and BtS are some Leaders More War like than others? And some down right passive?

Wasn't this achieved by LH Traits? How did Sid and Co. get the leaders to have different "agendas" if they all use the same end code?

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

If the Leader Traits only have a minimal influence on how an AI "acts", then why in vanilla CIV IV and BtS are some Leaders More War like than others? And some down right passive?

Wasn't this achieved by LH Traits? How did Sid and Co. get the leaders to have different "agendas" if they all use the same end code?

JosEPh

I think the vanilla BTS code is far less optimized in evaluating actual benefits than the code we now use, so traits played a larger part 'by default' so to speak. That's why they likly need bit of a boost now (should be easy to tweak)

 

[EldrinFal]

Part of the problem with AI invariance is that all of them are actually the same AI, so they use the same evaluation functions, and therefore tend to arrive at the same conclusions unless they have wildly skewed geographic conditions. It is slightly effected by leader/civ traits, but TBH they don't really influence things that much. Perhaps we need to give more weight to trait multipliers in civic evaluation in the AI code, in order to boost variance? (problem being that since the AIs all have the same stratgey/tactics code at the end of the day, one set really is liekly to be best for them, so artificially making them vary might just lead to more varied, but weaker opponents).

IIRC this topic came up in another thread awhile back. I think the AI SHOULD have flavor depending on Traits, even if that ends up making one more passive or "easier." The player can always choose exactly who his opponents are if he wants to-- if he doesn't want the "weaker" AI. IMHO it would be nice to have one or two AI opponents that I know aren't going to war with me despite peace treaties and years of trade, and will try to seek victory by other options. Even if our borders are next to each other.

Also, there IS an Aggressive AI configuration, so already we have options to make them aggro if need be.

I look at Civic use this way for the AI. If 1/3 to 2/3 of the AI use a Civic it's a good Civic. But If the AI uses a Civic almost all the Time, 90% and Above, then I consider it to be OP. If it's used by less than 20% of the AI it probably is design for a specific type Leader Or it has too many negatives for the AI. And if the AI almost Never uses it, it needs some serious look see at what's wrong with the AI wanting to use it.
JosEPh

The only caveat is that sometimes there is an end-game type Civic which is better than the rest. I'm fine with that as long as it doesn't come too early in the game. For example Post-Scarcity or Paradise civics. There are only a few of these though.

Second... in my games, there are just some Civics I like more than others and tend to stick to them most of the game when available. So the AI may be doing the same thing.

 

[EldrinFal]

Based on Joseph's testing of war weariness, I'm going to lower the later gov't settings a bit.

Despotism -10% from 0%
Monarchy -5% from 0%
Republic +5% from +25%
Democracy +10% from +50%
Federal +10% from +75%
Fascist -25% from -50%

I encourage others to test with these new values and report any noticeable issues. Thanks.

Ok, here are the new adjustments...

Despotism -10%
Monarchy 0%
Republic +10%
Democracy +25%
Federal +25%
Fascist -25%

I don't see why Federal would cause any additional WW over Democracy so I think those should be the same.

Since I didn't see any complaints about the Chiefdom and Despotism suggestions I proposed, I'll go ahead and implement those as well.

 

[bill2505]

Ok, here are the new adjustments...

Despotism -10%
Monarchy 0%
Republic +10%
Democracy +25%
Federal +25%
Fascist -25%

I don't see why Federal would cause any additional WW over Democracy so I think those should be the same.

Since I didn't see any complaints about the Chiefdom and Despotism suggestions I proposed, I'll go ahead and implement those as well.

why you have deleted the no in the capital from despotism

 

[EldrinFal]

why you have deleted the no in the capital from despotism

I didn't. I had just listed what would be changed. No in capital remains for Despotism.

Perhaps listing changes only is confusing? Next time maybe I'll just list everything out.

 

[climat]

Is DC supposed to emulate a God Emperor mentality for Leaders like Pacal , Monty, or Ramses for ex.? Or was it intended for a Religiously lead society, or both?

It certainly is for early warmongers. But the question is whether it is used by them.
What do you think about my idea? Do you think there should be more advantages for DC?

 

[steampunk1880]

Speaking of civics, is there any way you could convince the AI to stop switching and reswitching them the first chance they get? Most of the civs in my game spend the majority of their time in unproductive and destabilizing anarchy simply flopping back and forth between despotism and monarchy.