Existing Buildings Discussion

[Vokarya]

Since we have a new buildings discussion thread, I thought I would start another thread for discussing changes to existing buildings. I have some ideas I would like to throw out for debate.

First is the Siege Weapons Workshop/Cannon Forge. If you have Matchlock tech, Iron and Sulphur resources, and have built a Cannon Forge, you can still build a Siege Weapons Workshop in that city (until Artillery) but it wouldn't allow you to build any units because they would all be superseded, making the SWW a waste of hammers. I suggest adding Sulphur to the Cannon Forge building requirements and having it replace the Siege Weapons Workshop.

The only drawback I can see to this is that if the Cannon Forge replaces the Siege Weapons Workshop, you would have a gap between the Ancient Hand Cannon (which you wouldn't be able to build if the Siege Weapons Workshop was gone) and the Arquebusier at Matchlock. I'm not sure that is such a loss.

So I propose this change:
Cannon Forge
Requires Iron AND Sulphur
Replaces Siege Weapons Workshop

The second change is that I don't think that the Doctor's Office, Field Hospital, and Hospital should be allowed to coexist in a city. I think this is one source of too much health. I would like to have the Hospital replace the Doctor's Office and Field Hospital, but give the Hospital +1 health (total +8) to compensate. (You would be losing 4 health from the Doctor's Office/Field Hospital combination.)

Can you do OR prerequisites on the building requirements for a unit? I would think that Doctor's Office should be able to train Medic, because that would be your main medical building for cities that have not yet reached size 13 and can build a Hospital. I would also extend Field Hospital's Medic speed bonus to Surgeon so that it stays useful UNTIL the Hospital is built. I don't think a size 13 city needs help to train a Medic. Medic would train with Doctor's Office or Hospital, and all more advanced medical units would require Hospital.

Summary:
Doctor's Office
Allows training of Medic, Surgeon

Field Hospital
+50% faster production of Medic, Surgeon

Hospital
+8 health (up from +7)
Replaces Doctor's Office, Field Hospital

Medic
Requires Doctor's Office OR Hospital

What do you think of these suggestions?

 

[CIVPlayer8]

I like the siege weapons workshop idea.On a side note, you need a siege weapon workshop to build a catapult, and it also increases its production time by 100% I think these should be separated into two building, one which is necessary, and one which doubles production of it. I also like the hospital idea, it may be the first few steps taken to balance our over healthiness. Also, IMO, waaayy too many buildings are "obsolete" with virtual reality, and the buildings being obsolete don't even make sense for this modern era tech. Public pools and sports stadium obsolete? I think not, seeing how I go to both regularly. Also, some buildings are barely unlocked (skate park) before their obsolete. Not very practical.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Can you do OR prerequisites on the building requirements for a unit?

Not in vanilla BtS but it looks like we can in C2C. I have not seen it used yet.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I was just considering making some suggestions along this line earlier today so its cool to see others thinking along similar lines.

I'd like to register a complaint with the entire graveyard line. I simply don't build them, and its mostly due to having absolutely no cause to accept such war unhappiness for what they give is not worth it. I don't feel it necessary for them to cause any war unhappiness at all in fact. I mean... imagine how unhappy people would be during or after a war if they DIDN'T have a graveyard... to me it seems the opposite would be true, even though I concede some understanding of the thinking behind it.

I think they should be more important than just health but I haven't been able to think of what exactly the benefit should be. I suppose if health were more difficult to come by... but shouldn't they be an absolute requirement somehow? Otherwise, where are bodies going? Perhaps we should outright double the unhealth per population after say pop 6 or so and have these counteract that penalty. Perhaps there should be some 'war unhealth' that they counteract somehow.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

The SWW i also needed for the Ballista Turret which goes obsolete at economics. I think its fine. It not hurting anything having a building that cannot build any units anymore.

As for the Medical buildings I don't see why all 3 cannot co-exist at the same time. You want the hospitals to be packed with patients?

I was just considering making some suggestions along this line earlier today so its cool to see others thinking along similar lines.

I'd like to register a complaint with the entire graveyard line. I simply don't build them, and its mostly due to having absolutely no cause to accept such war unhappiness for what they give is not worth it. I don't feel it necessary for them to cause any war unhappiness at all in fact. I mean... imagine how unhappy people would be during or after a war if they DIDN'T have a graveyard... to me it seems the opposite would be true, even though I concede some understanding of the thinking behind it.

I think they should be more important than just health but I haven't been able to think of what exactly the benefit should be. I suppose if health were more difficult to come by... but shouldn't they be an absolute requirement somehow? Otherwise, where are bodies going? Perhaps we should outright double the unhealth per population after say pop 6 or so and have these counteract that penalty. Perhaps there should be some 'war unhealth' that they counteract somehow.

wait until the disease mod is implemented and you will need all the health you can get. Also once applied I think the gravyard would recurred disease.

As for the WW it was actually higher. I am not sure what to do. It unlocks like 4 different buildings too, which should be somewhat appealing.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

wait until the disease mod is implemented and you will need all the health you can get. Also once applied I think the gravyard would recurred disease.

As for the WW it was actually higher. I am not sure what to do. It unlocks like 4 different buildings too, which should be somewhat appealing.

I just get Zoroasterism and build the sky graveyard instead,

 

[Il Principe]

The Field Hospital could give a war weariness reduction, but only +1 health.
Would reduce over healthiness and make sense.

This just set a line of thought in motion: Could buildings be dependent on your war/peace status? So that having a war would influence your empire more? Like a hospital giving less health during war with all the doctors relocated to the military ( maybe realy heavy with drafted army civic active). The field hospital on the other hand could be unaffected by this.
Other ideas could be reduced income from money buildings, greatly reduced science output from schools and universities because of the young people going to war instead.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

The SWW i also needed for the Ballista Turret which goes obsolete at economics. I think its fine. It not hurting anything having a building that cannot build any units anymore.

I forgot about the Ballista Turret. Should maybe Bombard Tower replace Ballista Turret? I'm not a big fan of allowing Traps to stack to the point where they can destroy units single-handedly.

As for the Medical buildings I don't see why all 3 cannot co-exist at the same time. You want the hospitals to be packed with patients?


wait until the disease mod is implemented and you will need all the health you can get. Also once applied I think the gravyard would recurred disease.

Right now (v22) I am seeing Modern era cities with health into the +40's. I think that could be reined in a little, and that's one of the reasons I made the suggestion.

 

[Sgtslick]

Would depend on what difficulty you are playing. Generally health isn't much of a concern tho your right. Even if you have negative health, with all the +food buildings its really not big a problem.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I forgot about the Ballista Turret. Should maybe Bombard Tower replace Ballista Turret? I'm not a big fan of allowing Traps to stack to the point where they can destroy units single-handedly.

Its not on the same building path. Its connected to the Castle mod that Afforess made.

 

[Troninator]

I have an issue with the buildings that require charcoal. Why should I have to import charcoal in the Industrial Era?

Smokehouse, Forge, Armourer, and Foundry all require charcoal. Smokehouse obsoletes at Refrigeration, and Armourer obsoletes at Flintlock. Forge and Foundry never obsolete, except by the method explained below.

All sources of charcoal become obsolete by Steam Power. Fire Pit and Imu become obsolete at Iron Working, but we still have Charcoal Burner until Steam Power. There are no more ways to get charcoal past these three.

This essentially means that if I want to use Forges and Foundries I need to import charcoal from other civs, which is easy to do because the AI hand it out for free. This obsoletes the buildings once everyone has researched Steam Power.

As far as possible changes, we can either remove the charcoal requirement from Forge and Foundry, or we can keep Charcoal Burner from obsoleting.

 

[JosEPh_II]

or we can keep Charcoal Burner from obsoleting.

Agreed.

How else is my 20th century man gonna cook his steaks or shrimp on the "barbie"? Propane suxs but is better than the broiler.

JosEPh

 

[Troninator]

Agreed.

How else is my 20th century man gonna cook his steaks or shrimp on the "barbie"? Propane suxs but is better than the broiler.

JosEPh

I just realized that Steel Mill, which replaces Forge and Foundry, comes online at Steel. Steel only has Steam Power as a prereq. I still think that having a functioning Forge-->Foundry-->Steel Mill tree is useful during the Industrial Era. This tree allows you to slowly build up a newly conq'd city's , rather than have to sink turns (or cash) into building a Steel Mill.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Modern Charcoal Briquettes came about as a result of a moment of industrial brilliance as a way to resell waste sawdust... perhaps such thinking could be considered in a building adjustment.

 

[Vokarya]

Would depend on what difficulty you are playing. Generally health isn't much of a concern tho your right. Even if you have negative health, with all the +food buildings its really not big a problem.

I am playing on Emperor difficulty. I don't think Deity would be more than an additional -4 or so health per city.

 

[Vokarya]

Here's another tweak I thought of, to make it easier to build certain buildings. The Alcohol-producing buildings (Brewery/Distillery/Winery) are all supposed to
be available at Fermentation in the Ancient Era, but the Glassware requirement actually pushes them into the Classical Era. I think you should be able to hold your alcohol in Pottery instead of Glassware.

I don't think we can do double OR requirements for buildings, so I also have a tweak for the requirements for Brewery to bring it into line with Distillery and Winery. I noticed Distillery and Winery have building requirements for their raw material, but Brewery just has resource requirements.

This is what I am thinking:

Brewery
Building requirements: Barley Farm OR Corn Farm OR Potato Farm OR Rice Farm OR Wheat Farm
Resource requirements: Glassware OR Pottery

Distillery
Building requirements unchanged
Resource requirements: Glassware OR Pottery

Winery
Building requirements unchanged
Resource requirements: Glassware OR Pottery

How does this sound?

 

[BlueGenie]

Sounds good V. What about adding in Barrels too. There's still use of barrels (casks, kegs) to keep and make alcohol in and it was used way long before Glassware. That way Glassware bottles might be pushed a little further on too, which is more in line with when glass bottles were used for liquid storage.
Glassware itself dates back to 12'000BC or so but only as natural coatings used. Glass making didn't come until Mesopotamia 5-3'000BC and then spread widely across the world, though not really used for bottles or any liquid storage until the 1st century AD when the Romans adopted the Syrian's Glassblowing technique and started used bottles to sell wine in. Then it was still only for the rich (and you basically had to bring your own bottle to be filled up due to varying sizes) and it took until 19th century and being able to manufacture same size bottles until it became more generally used.

So, Glassware might be good a little earlier than where it is now but Glass-Blowing should come a little later again. My thought anyway.

Cheers

 

[Vokarya]

Sounds good V. What about adding in Barrels too. There's still use of barrels (casks, kegs) to keep and make alcohol in and it was used way long before Glassware. That way Glassware bottles might be pushed a little further on too, which is more in line with when glass bottles were used for liquid storage.
Glassware itself dates back to 12'000BC or so but only as natural coatings used. Glass making didn't come until Mesopotamia 5-3'000BC and then spread widely across the world, though not really used for bottles or any liquid storage until the 1st century AD when the Romans adopted the Syrian's Glassblowing technique and started used bottles to sell wine in. Then it was still only for the rich (and you basically had to bring your own bottle to be filled up due to varying sizes) and it took until 19th century and being able to manufacture same size bottles until it became more generally used.

So, Glassware might be good a little earlier than where it is now but Glass-Blowing should come a little later again. My thought anyway.

Cheers

I actually realized that we do not have a Cooper building to make Barrels. We have just about everything else. Barrels would definitely work.

The Glass Blowing technology is at the very beginning of the Classical Era, so it could be moved around some with adding the right prerequisites. Glass Blowing doesn't lead to any technologies until the middle of the Medieval Era, so wherever it lands won't mess up anything else.

 

[Hydromancerx]

A Cooper sounds like a good idea. I will try to add one next time I am adding new Craft mod buildings.

 

[Koshling]

A Cooper sounds like a good idea. I will try to add one next time I am adding new Craft mod buildings.

Terminological nit-picking:

spot the odd one out:

Cooper
Cobbler
Hat shop


Hint it's the milliner! Of course there is an argument for consistency the other way too.