seancolorado
Deity
Historically, it makes sense. Gameplay wise, it makes sense. As a "wonder"? Ehh...
Spoiler :
Most disappointing wonder?
- Thread starter Botswana
- Start date
Historically, it makes sense. Gameplay wise, it makes sense. As a "wonder"? Ehh...
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
My problem with Prora isn't that it wasn't finished (as pointed out, the fascist regimes would have finished more if they hadn't lost), or that it was built by Nazis (it's the Wonder for the Autocracy Ideology, which represents fascism), or that it's in ruins (plenty of old Wonders are now in ruins, and some have even disappeared). My problem is that I don't see how a beach resort really represents anything about fascism. The Volkshalle was to be the centerpiece of the fascist world capital, would have been so large it would have had its own internal weather system, and was intended to be a symbol of the so-called superiority of the so-called Aryan Race. Prora was going to be a beach resort. I know which one I think sounds more like a Wonder of the World, albeit an odious one.
m15a
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2005
- Messages
- 1,471
can you explain this a little? why the Autobahn is a good choice, i mean. i'm not doubting, i just don't know anything about its history.
TheMarshmallowBear
Benelovent Chieftain of the Ursu Kingdom
Maybe the reason they picked Prora was because of the primary theme of the expansion pack? (Tourism, Culture, etc.) I mean Prora is a tourist resort so although it has nothing to do with tourism itself it's like a tourist-like wonder.
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
And it's not on the poll, but I'm disappointed and annoyed that they've attached the Kremlin to Order. Civ IV made the same mistake, making the Communism tech the prerequisite and giving it spy-related effects. I understand that "the Kremlin" was used as a metonym for "the Soviet government" back in the day. But the Kremlin predates the Soviets by a long, long time. And is not the building shown here:
or here:
Both of those appear to be St. Basil's Cathedral, which has less to do with communism than the Kremlin. It's really, really annoying to see them keep making those mistakes. The Motherland Calls would have been a good Wonder for Order. The Kremlin is not.
or here:
Both of those appear to be St. Basil's Cathedral, which has less to do with communism than the Kremlin. It's really, really annoying to see them keep making those mistakes. The Motherland Calls would have been a good Wonder for Order. The Kremlin is not.
dat1337vet
Chieftain
Going with a wonder weapon would have been cool. For example the V3 supergun could have increased the damage and range of the range strength of a city.
God of Kings
Ruler of all heads of state
And it's not on the poll, but I'm disappointed and annoyed that they've attached the Kremlin to Order. Civ IV made the same mistake, making the Communism tech the prerequisite and giving it spy-related effects. I understand that "the Kremlin" was used as a metonym for "the Soviet government" back in the day. But the Kremlin predates the Soviets by a long, long time. And is not the building shown here:
or here:
Both of those appear to be St. Basil's Cathedral, which has less to do with communism than the Kremlin. It's really, really annoying to see them keep making those mistakes. The Motherland Calls would have been a good Wonder for Order. The Kremlin is not.
The last time I checked, communism (in the popular sense and in the Marxist sense) is atheist and having a large house of worship to represent an atheistic socioeconomic system goes against common sense.
That's what he's saying.
And it's not on the poll, but I'm disappointed and annoyed that they've attached the Kremlin to Order. Civ IV made the same mistake, making the Communism tech the prerequisite and giving it spy-related effects. I understand that "the Kremlin" was used as a metonym for "the Soviet government" back in the day. But the Kremlin predates the Soviets by a long, long time. And is not the building shown here:
or here:
Both of those appear to be St. Basil's Cathedral, which has less to do with communism than the Kremlin. It's really, really annoying to see them keep making those mistakes. The Motherland Calls would have been a good Wonder for Order. The Kremlin is not.
If you search "the kremlim" on Google, you'll get a bunch of images of St. Basil's. Since a large number of icons on Civ V are just adapted from Google Image results, I suspect that the artists did precisely that.
"Autocracy" lost the domination game, not the culture gamemaybe you could argue that Italy culture-flipped to the US and the UK, but Germany, Austria, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Japan, etc. did not.
As for Prora itself, I think it's by far the worst Wonder that's ever been in the series.
What's really galling about its inclusion isn't that it's ugly, or inconsequential, or unfinished (although those things taken together could have disqualified it). What I find upsetting is that the devs have gone out of their way to find a politically palatable Nazi Wonder. They've chosen to represent Autocracywhich could stand for the Portuguese Estado Novo, the Franco regime in Spain, or Imperial Japan, among othersvery narrowly as "the Nazi ideology" (with one nod to Italian Fascism, in a tenet). And yet they've very carefully avoided anything unpleasant about Nazism. There's no Lebensraum tenet, no labor camps, no Nuremberg Laws, no pogroms, not even the Zeppelinfeld. It's a completely whitewashed vision of Nazism, with the relatively "clean" Prora as its centerpiece (clean in the sense that it wasn't built by slave labor, wasn't the site of any mass killings, etc.).
It's just a game, yeah, and it makes sense to present Freedom, Order, and Autocracy on equal footing both in gameplay terms and in terms of not making any of them "good" or "evil." But if they wanted a non-evil Autocracy, they should've cast their net wider, drawing from the full range of fascist, corporatist, Falangist, and similar regimes. There are plenty of Wonder choices better than Prorait's just that none of them was German, so none of them fit the devs' vision of Autocracy. Instead, we get Prora and a kind, gentle vision of Nazism. It's awful.
Didn't stop me from buying BNW, mind you. But I'm sure gonna mod Prora out (and the Motherland Calls back in, while I'm at it).
Didn't they, though? In all of those countries, the majority of the population has a decent grasp of English and many speak if fluently. American & English music, TV, movies, and fashion are extremely popular. They play our games. They eat our food. Their governments are structured similar to ours (or to the UK's). How have they not culture flipped?
* I'm not as familiar with Hungary (which has recently done some pretty bad things with regards to democracy and freedom!) and Croatia as I am with the others, so this might not apply to them. But given that there's almost no Hungarian/Croatian influence in the US, I find it hard to believe that we aren't more influential there than they are here. For the rest, this is obviously true.
** And obviously, those other countries still maintain parts of their own culture, as well. I'm not trying to claim that Japan is culturally equivalent to the US. But in game terms, we'd certainly be "influential" in these other countries and they almost certainly wouldn't have that level in the US.
Off topic. Please get back to discussing how terrible Prora is and how much you miss the Motherland Calls wonder.
I'll try to summarize so as to not turn this into a history discussion. Although the Autobahn was conceived and part of it constructed before the Nazi takeover, it was through Hitler's backing that the Autobahn reached its peak in scale. Sure, Nazi propaganda did intentionally miscredit the Autobahn as Hitler's idea, but there is no doubt that the Autobahn owes its current large scale status to him. Symbolically speaking, the Autobahn was the pride of the Nazi party, a large scale project like the Pyramids or the Great Wall that, through the sweat and blood of Germans themselves, helped to unify the nation. The Autobahn's legacy can even be felt today as many nations view it as a model for their own roads and highways.
Off topic. Please get back to discussing how terrible Prora is and how much you miss the Motherland Calls wonder.
That's pretty valid!
Dux1
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2010
- Messages
- 134
I initially thought that Prora was an odd choice, but after looking into it a bit more, I like it as the Autocracy unique wonder. For one thing, although it may be hideous to look at it, the structure itself is quite impressive: It stretches continuously over almost three miles, making it one of the longest structures in the world. But more than that, you have to consider what Prora was meant to represent: It was supposed to be the ultimate realization of "Strength through Joy," a quintessential symbol of Nazi idealism. Prora represents the dream of a world in which every (worthy) citizen has access to a first-rate beach resort (controlled, of course, by the state, in its infinite benevolence). It is a world where the state, through the power of a singular dictator's absolute authority, is able to make every (worthy) man's dreams come true. All of this may seem ugly, reprehensible or perhaps just plain ridiculous to us now, but then, none of us live in autocratic civilizations.
I am much more disappointed about the Kremlin. As others have pointed out, the Kremlin predates the "Order" ideology by quite a bit, although I suppose it could be argued that it later came to be a Soviet symbol. Still, it just seems like it would have been better to include an entirely new wonder for this purpose (like, I don't know, The Motherland Calls perhaps), as now we have this weird version of the Kremlin that can't even be built until well after it was built in reality (seriously, Railroad as an unlock for the Kremlin just doesn't make any sense at all).
I am much more disappointed about the Kremlin. As others have pointed out, the Kremlin predates the "Order" ideology by quite a bit, although I suppose it could be argued that it later came to be a Soviet symbol. Still, it just seems like it would have been better to include an entirely new wonder for this purpose (like, I don't know, The Motherland Calls perhaps), as now we have this weird version of the Kremlin that can't even be built until well after it was built in reality (seriously, Railroad as an unlock for the Kremlin just doesn't make any sense at all).
PhilBowles
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,333
The disappointing thing here is that the mistake would have been known to the developers - it was an error in Civ IV, and a fuss was made of it then. So they should have known it was wrong and something fans of the series would pick up on. I'm not actually bothered about it, but it seems lazy.
St Basil's is more deserving of Wonder status than the Kremlin in any case, so why didn't they use the art but change the name?
There's more than one way to
If you're having difficulties with one particular opponent (and it seems that that would often be the case with an ideological opponent who is also going for cultural victory), you either need to increase your tourism in relation to them, or decrease the growth of their culture. The former is the obvious path to choose, but warring would achieve the latter too. Moreover, wiping an opponent out means that you don't have to worry about becoming influential with them. If we were to look at WWII in these terms (something which the developers were probably aiming to do), then it indeed was a cultural conflict, but one that was resolved from force of arms, rather than increase in tourism.
