Ideology, Individuality and Groupthink

I can think of one: Diodotus II who was overthrown by Euthydemus I.

Himself a Greek, though - what I'm getting at is that there's no case of 'the natives' overthrowing 'the foreigners'.

Sure, I guess. But I'm not sure I'd date it to the Romans? I guess the Romans finished the process of professionalization. But the Argyraspides for example were professionals.

Those were all royal guard troops, and I'd say that there's a fundamental difference between being a guardsman and being 'a soldier' - though that is true.

I guess. But I'm not sure if one would go that far for just land. I presume that other things e.g. slaves and cash were offered to make it more attractive. It just makes more sense to me. Land was a-ok but one wants to move up in the world as it were when making this kind of trip.

I'm sure there were incentives, but isn't the prospect of making your fortune enough of an incentive? There's no chance at home for a skilled farmer to be anything more than he is; the land's all already bought up. If you're good and lucky on the frontier, you might end up a rich man.

Yeah, that's true. But I'm not sure if writing is the determinative factor in whether or not a language survives. Like we have Coptic, Aramaic/Syriac and Hebrew as examples of well attested written languages that survived. (And I think Hebrew is something of a special case because Classical Hebrew went extinct in the 400s and had to be reconstructed). We have Punic in the West that didn't. So it's two survivals in the East plus one part extinction examples against one extinction in the West. But we also have a number of languages that weren't written that have survived in the East e.g. Armenian. I'm sure there's others? I'm not sure what to make of this.

Punic did survive for quite a long time, though - Augustine, Apuleius and Septimius Severus all spoke it. Armenian became a written language in 405. There's evidence of Gaulish being spoken as late as the 5th century AD. I'm not sure what to make of this either, on reflection. I will restate that most speakers of western languages had to also speak Latin, and suggest that Latin had greater value and prestige than their native languages, so people would have adopted it as a means of climbing up the social scale. The same happened to a small extent in India: you still have families who insist that their children speak English at home, because that's what children from 'good families' speak. At some point the native languages and Latin must have become mixed into the creoles which eventually became the Romance languages - themselves, no doubt, intermixing over time, perhaps reinforcing the Latin elements.
 
Do they become rarer, or do other people gain a stronger presence in the historical record?

The latter. Being one out of millions in a world where four-fifths of the population are hunter-gatherers is better than being one out of billions in a world where half of the people live in cities.
 
Flying Pig said:
Himself a Greek, though - what I'm getting at is that there's no case of 'the natives' overthrowing 'the foreigners'.
Ah, right.

Flying Pig said:
Those were all royal guard troops, and I'd say that there's a fundamental difference between being a guardsman and being 'a soldier' - though that is true.
I'm not sure if there is? But even if that's the case I'm not sure if other non-guards units in the Makedonian army don't also count as soldiers?

Flying Pig said:
I'm sure there were incentives, but isn't the prospect of making your fortune enough of an incentive? There's no chance at home for a skilled farmer to be anything more than he is; the land's all already bought up. If you're good and lucky on the frontier, you might end up a rich man.

Well sure. Except one might as well make his fortune somewhere closer. You need to have a greater incentive to go the additional distance as it were. The Seleucids also seem to have provided free land, tax exemptions and grain subsidies. No word on the Baktrians.

Flying Pig said:
Punic did survive for quite a long time, though - Augustine, Apuleius and Septimius Severus all spoke it. Armenian became a written language in 405. There's evidence of Gaulish being spoken as late as the 5th century AD. I'm not sure what to make of this either, on reflection. I will restate that most speakers of western languages had to also speak Latin, and suggest that Latin had greater value and prestige than their native languages, so people would have adopted it as a means of climbing up the social scale. The same happened to a small extent in India: you still have families who insist that their children speak English at home, because that's what children from 'good families' speak. At some point the native languages and Latin must have become mixed into the creoles which eventually became the Romance languages - themselves, no doubt, intermixing over time, perhaps reinforcing the Latin elements.

I'm not sure if "most" speakers of Western languages had to speak Latin though? I mean Greek was the administrative language of the East much as Latin was of the West and people still didn't take up Greek as much as Latin. Latin did also have some additional value as the language of the army. So there's that. But given how the Roman army was deployed; that would only explain uptake of Latin in recruiting areas or around military camps. As to the social movement mobility aspect, I agree. But that works mostly for elites and not for the hoi polloi. It's a complicated issue I guess.

I'm also not sure if there's much evidence of Latin derived Creoles developed in the West and I don't think development of a Creole language makes sense given that the factors you've identified as being important would tend to militate against it. One wouldn't learn a Creole Latin because Latin is a prestigious language that offers material benefits. You'd just learn Latin. The trickle down implied in your schema also supports this.

Now I do know that Gallic Latin was different. But I don't think that's due to it growing out of a Creole because Creoles are not intermediate steps between Language A and B but are rather Language C which has features of A and B. I suspect rather that the differences between Gallic and Italic Latin which were not that pronounced during the Empire were not Celtic carry-overs, although there might be some of that, but rather a function of limited contract between the language and the infusion of non-Latin elements into the language after the Empire fell. I think Spanish Latin was generally held to be closer to Italic Latin but I'm not so sure.

In short, I'm just not sure what caused it nor am I convinced that the explanation lies in differences between Latin and Greek use. I guess if I were to offer another factor that we haven't considered: I'd point out that where Greek did expand i.e. Anatolia it had a much deeper population pool to draw on i.e. the Anatolian Coast. I think it also did well in Cyrenaica where it came to dominate the region. So maybe the relative size of the Greek population to the non-Greek population was an important consideration.

Having said that, I'm not sure penetration of say Gaul by Latin speakers was that much stronger. I suspect it was because Gaul hosted a lot of troops on the frontiers and I think we can find support for that in the case of Pannonia. The East tended to have fewer troops few of whom spoke Greek. So while administration might have mattered in some respects, it might well have been the number of bodies that mattered more.

:dunno:
 
Well sure. Except one might as well make his fortune somewhere closer. You need to have a greater incentive to go the additional distance as it were. The Seleucids also seem to have provided free land, tax exemptions and grain subsidies. No word on the Baktrians.

The two were one and the same for about a century, so that seems very likely.

I'm not sure if "most" speakers of Western languages had to speak Latin though? I mean Greek was the administrative language of the East much as Latin was of the West and people still didn't take up Greek as much as Latin. Latin did also have some additional value as the language of the army. So there's that. But given how the Roman army was deployed; that would only explain uptake of Latin in recruiting areas or around military camps. As to the social movement mobility aspect, I agree. But that works mostly for elites and not for the hoi polloi. It's a complicated issue I guess.

Even ordinary people aspire to social mobility, though, even if only to be less lowly than their neighbours. Also, a large part of Roman ideology was the theoretical availability of the governor or even the emperor as a point of appeal in a dispute or against injustice; in many ways, it was what made the largely hands-off government preferable to what went before. A Chinese observer recorded the practice (admittedly in rural Syria, but it's not a major stretch to imagine the same happening in the west) of the governor travelling from village to village accompanied by aides carrying bags, and urging anyone with a grievance to put a petition into the bags. There might have been nothing to stop him from throwing them over the next bridge and starting again,
but the possibility that he might read and deal with one's petition was a major part of provincial people's view of the state. In the same way, Russians during the Purges who tried desperately to contact Stalin and tell him what was going on, because if only he knew then he would sort it out. That sort of system allows people to see the state as a whole as benign even when their actual experience of life is grim. What matters for this point, though, is that in order to partake in this important part of life, you had to be able to write your petition down in a way that the (probably Italian) governor would understand.

I'm also not sure if there's much evidence of Latin derived Creoles developed in the West and I don't think development of a Creole language makes sense given that the factors you've identified as being important would tend to militate against it. One wouldn't learn a Creole Latin because Latin is a prestigious language that offers material benefits. You'd just learn Latin. The trickle down implied in your schema also supports this.

Yes, but probably provincial or dialected Latin, especially in terms of pronunciation. The very existence of the Romance languages lets you know that there were some differences between the way Latin was spoken in Italy, Spain and Gaul, and you can infer the same from the differences in English speech between Wales, England and South Africa. Does a sentence like 'No my never boyo, I never done that' not count as some kind of hybrid language?

In short, I'm just not sure what caused it nor am I convinced that the explanation lies in differences between Latin and Greek use. I guess if I were to offer another factor that we haven't considered: I'd point out that where Greek did expand i.e. Anatolia it had a much deeper population pool to draw on i.e. the Anatolian Coast. I think it also did well in Cyrenaica where it came to dominate the region. So maybe the relative size of the Greek population to the non-Greek population was an important consideration.

I think you're on to something there, but it's difficult to apply the same to the west because there's not such an easy divide between 'Roman' and 'native' - short of the residents of Rome itself and the immediate environs, nobody grew up surrounded by only Latin. Latin by its very nature was a common tongue among people who usually had their own local language, even within a few dozen miles of Rome. I certainly take your point that urban clusters (where interaction with the state is more common and the pressure for prestige usually more pronounced) help with the spread of language, but the West did have its fair share of those.

As a point of fact, by the way, the east was actually by far the most densely militarised part of the Roman world - the Sassanian front was the only border which the Romans were really prepared to fight along, Judea was one of the smallest provinces and yet hosted the most soldiers of all, and the general ratio of soldiers per unit area was massive. In the west it was quite unusual to see a soldier unless you lived close to the border or in Britain - that was part of the 'soft power' aspect of Roman rule, which tried to blend those within the empire into a common identity. What people often miss about the Roman use of force is that it was brutal, but part of the point was the provincials watching it wouldn't necessarily have been scared by it - their culture was reinforcing the idea that the people on the sharp end of it were barbarians (even domestici hostes are always portrayed as such in art and literature; witness the Battle of Actium in Book VIII of the Aeneid), so by inference they, as good, cultured Romans, had nothing to fear from it.
 
Flying Pig said:
The two were one and the same for about a century, so that seems very likely.
Well, sorta. I think Baktria was more or less self-governing and that in order to even hope to compete it would have had to offer more. Otherwise one would just have settled somewhere closer.

Flying Pig said:
Even ordinary people aspire to social mobility, though, even if only to be less lowly than their neighbours. Also, a large part of Roman ideology was the theoretical availability of the governor or even the emperor as a point of appeal in a dispute or against injustice; in many ways, it was what made the largely hands-off government preferable to what went before. A Chinese observer recorded the practice (admittedly in rural Syria, but it's not a major stretch to imagine the same happening in the west) of the governor travelling from village to village accompanied by aides carrying bags, and urging anyone with a grievance to put a petition into the bags. There might have been nothing to stop him from throwing them over the next bridge and starting again, but the possibility that he might read and deal with one's petition was a major part of provincial people's view of the state. In the same way, Russians during the Purges who tried desperately to contact Stalin and tell him what was going on, because if only he knew then he would sort it out. That sort of system allows people to see the state as a whole as benign even when their actual experience of life is grim. What matters for this point, though, is that in order to partake in this important part of life, you had to be able to write your petition down in a way that the (probably Italian) governor would understand.
Sure, that's all well and good. But I think that provides a rationale for local elites at the village level to learn Latin. It doesn't mean that everyone would go out and do so. Sort of like how we don't assume that everyone would learn to write because the governor in that example accepted written petitions. The more likely outcome would be that you would get someone else to do it for you. To my mind, there's no real reason to widen the base of Latin speakers beyond the few for that reason alone.

Flying Pig said:
Yes, but probably provincial or dialected Latin, especially in terms of pronunciation. The very existence of the Romance languages lets you know that there were some differences between the way Latin was spoken in Italy, Spain and Gaul, and you can infer the same from the differences in English speech between Wales, England and South Africa. Does a sentence like 'No my never boyo, I never done that' not count as some kind of hybrid language?
Well no it doesn't. Because the differences could well have developed after the Empire fell. In fact I'd suggest that's what happened.

Flying Pig said:
I think you're on to something there, but it's difficult to apply the same to the west because there's not such an easy divide between 'Roman' and 'native' - short of the residents of Rome itself and the immediate environs, nobody grew up surrounded by only Latin. Latin by its very nature was a common tongue among people who usually had their own local language, even within a few dozen miles of Rome. I certainly take your point that urban clusters (where interaction with the state is more common and the pressure for prestige usually more pronounced) help with the spread of language, but the West did have its fair share of those.

Yeah, I think that's fair and I agree that Latin use wasn't universal in Italy. But I think Roman, in this sense, probably refers to citizens, including some local elites where Latin use was important to get and maintain citizenship, and near-citizens i.e. soldiers.

Flying Pig said:
As a point of fact, by the way, the east was actually by far the most densely militarised part of the Roman world - the Sassanian front was the only border which the Romans were really prepared to fight along, Judea was one of the smallest provinces and yet hosted the most soldiers of all, and the general ratio of soldiers per unit area was massive. In the west it was quite unusual to see a soldier unless you lived close to the border or in Britain - that was part of the 'soft power' aspect of Roman rule, which tried to blend those within the empire into a common identity. What people often miss about the Roman use of force is that it was brutal, but part of the point was the provincials watching it wouldn't necessarily have been scared by it - their culture was reinforcing the idea that the people on the sharp end of it were barbarians (even domestici hostes are always portrayed as such in art and literature; witness the Battle of Actium in Book VIII of the Aeneid), so by inference they, as good, cultured Romans, had nothing to fear from it.
That's true for a period of time, sure. But there were periods when the Sassanian front wasn't active and that period of time when they didn't exist. The lopsided nature of the war against the Palmyrene Empire I think is a not unreasonable example of the issues with this sort of generalization.
 
Sure, that's all well and good. But I think that provides a rationale for local elites at the village level to learn Latin. It doesn't mean that everyone would go out and do so. Sort of like how we don't assume that everyone would learn to write because the governor in that example accepted written petitions. The more likely outcome would be that you would get someone else to do it for you. To my mind, there's no real reason to widen the base of Latin speakers beyond the few for that reason alone.

True. I should point out that I don't think many people could read and write Latin. In rural areas I doubt that many people could speak it, but I do think that in urban areas there would have been enough of it around for the general feeling of the place to have been bilingual. After all, people still inscribed primarily in Latin (there are bilingual inscriptions, though from memory most of those are from North Africa), and it would be remarkable to have most people wandering around Londinium with no clue what it said on the front of the temple.

Well no it doesn't. Because the differences could well have developed after the Empire fell. In fact I'd suggest that's what happened.

They could have done, but I find that unlikely. There's good evidence as you pointed out for Gallic Latin being different from standard Latin during Roman times, and less for Spanish (people misspelling 'Valerius' as 'Balerius', for example). Of course the differences would have increased after the empire fragmented, but it seems like there were definitely some to begin with.

Yeah, I think that's fair and I agree that Latin use wasn't universal in Italy. But I think Roman, in this sense, probably refers to citizens, including some local elites where Latin use was important to get and maintain citizenship, and near-citizens i.e. soldiers.

You didn't actually need Latin to be a citizen: after Caracalla's edict of 212, you got it simply for not being a slave.

That's true for a period of time, sure. But there were periods when the Sassanian front wasn't active and that period of time when they didn't exist. The lopsided nature of the war against the Palmyrene Empire I think is a not unreasonable example of the issues with this sort of generalization.

The Persians were the great enemy of Rome even when they weren't the Sassanids - see Horace, Virgil or even Ovid for early examples - and the border was always heavily manned, though at times there were more troops along the Rhine. I found a few maps which illustrate:
Spoiler :












Of course, it did fluctuate over time, but I don't think there was ever a point where the east was quiet.
 
Flying Pig said:
True. I should point out that I don't think many people could read and write Latin. In rural areas I doubt that many people could speak it, but I do think that in urban areas there would have been enough of it around for the general feeling of the place to have been bilingual. After all, people still inscribed primarily in Latin (there are bilingual inscriptions, though from memory most of those are from North Africa), and it would be remarkable to have most people wandering around Londinium with no clue what it said on the front of the temple.
Sure, inscriptions were done in Latin. But inscriptions were what elites did. I would tend to agree that urban areas had more Latin speakers but that's a function of what urban centers tended to be in the Roman world i.e. administrative centers. Bilingualism in urban areas would also tend to insulate rural dwellers from needing to learn Latin as well because one could go to market (the most common rural-urban interaction I'd imagine) and not be handicapped as a result. I'd also be surprised if people walking around Londinium could read. (Writing being a rather rarer skill). The highest estimates I've seen for reading are in the order of 20% and IIRC that includes people whose reading was limited to stuff like shop lists.

Flying Pig said:
They could have done, but I find that unlikely. There's good evidence as you pointed out for Gallic Latin being different from standard Latin during Roman times, and less for Spanish (people misspelling 'Valerius' as 'Balerius', for example). Of course the differences would have increased after the empire fragmented, but it seems like there were definitely some to begin with.

Sure there were some differences. But those differences were in the order of accents not dialects. You're example could equally work for the differences between American English and British English which are still the same language. And the mere fact that there were some differences during the Empire doesn't mean those differences were the differences that explain Spanish/Italian/French.

Flying Pig said:
You didn't actually need Latin to be a citizen: after Caracalla's edict of 212, you got it simply for not being a slave.
Yeah, I guess that applies best to the early Empire/Republic. I think as we go forward it gets more difficult, I agree. Not sure how to define it there.

Flying Pig said:
The Persians were the great enemy of Rome even when they weren't the Sassanids - see Horace, Virgil or even Ovid for early examples - and the border was always heavily manned, though at times there were more troops along the Rhine. I found a few maps which illustrate:

If we want to go by density, the length of the Rhine frontier was rather shorter than the length of the Roman/Persian border? (Even allowing for the desert that tended to break up the latter). I also think one could also make the point based on those maps that the Pannonian front (I can't think of the right name) was about as active as the East and was again a rather shorter frontier. More generally, I also think the population of the Western frontiers were less densely populated.
 
Sure, inscriptions were done in Latin. But inscriptions were what elites did. I would tend to agree that urban areas had more Latin speakers but that's a function of what urban centers tended to be in the Roman world i.e. administrative centers. Bilingualism in urban areas would also tend to insulate rural dwellers from needing to learn Latin as well because one could go to market (the most common rural-urban interaction I'd imagine) and not be handicapped as a result. I'd also be surprised if people walking around Londinium could read. (Writing being a rather rarer skill). The highest estimates I've seen for reading are in the order of 20% and IIRC that includes people whose reading was limited to stuff like shop lists.

Yes, I think I picked a bad example there. What I was trying to get across was that even if Latin was an elite language, you couldn't have gone into a Roman city without being surrounded by it to an extent, so people would have picked up a smattering of it even if there hadn't been pressure to learn it in order to climb the social ladder - which there definitely was. I'm reminded of Horace's childhood: his father was a farmer of modest means who sent his son to Rome to be educated and learn (among other things) Greek, because he wanted his son to have more opportunities than he had. It's not difficult to imagine the Gallic or British equivalent sending their son off to learn Latin, especially as Roman rule brought with it a lot of ways to make a good living from being intelligent and literate.

Sure there were some differences. But those differences were in the order of accents not dialects. You're example could equally work for the differences between American English and British English which are still the same language. And the mere fact that there were some differences during the Empire doesn't mean those differences were the differences that explain Spanish/Italian/French.

Romans complained, though, very frequently of not being able to understand Gauls. The difference between accent and dialect is on paper to do with the words used, I think, and there are some records of distinctly Gallic Latin words - caballus for equus or gamba for crus. I found an (admittedly rather old) paper explaining the effect of the differences between northern and southern Gallic Latin on French and Provencal. Looking over the tail end of that article there are some quite persuasive arguments for the Celtic origins of the changes upon Latin words adopted into Old French, so there seems no reason to suppose that people would have waited until the end of the empire to take those on - in fact, you would expect quite the reverse to be true, and for such mutations to enter into the language early.

If we want to go by density, the length of the Rhine frontier was rather shorter than the length of the Roman/Persian border? (Even allowing for the desert that tended to break up the latter). I also think one could also make the point based on those maps that the Pannonian front (I can't think of the right name) was about as active as the East and was again a rather shorter frontier. More generally, I also think the population of the Western frontiers were less densely populated.

Indeed, so my point was that people actually living in the east (lots of people and soldiers in a relatively small area) were much more likely to actually see a soldier than people living almost anywhere else, precisely because populations were largely clustered, the area was small to begin with, and there were a lot of soldiers out there.
 
Oh yes, but my point is that he didn't control the spread of Greeks: people would still have moved East in search of new land and opportunity (or in exile) and lived in enclaves, soldiers would still have found wives and settled together for protection and carried on living like Greeks, and so on. In actual fact what he ended up doing was largely as you described, simply as a result of the practicalities of things. In India he left the defeated Porus to rule over his old territory as a client monarch, and elsewhere his governors were so far from central oversight as to be effectively independent rulers - a problem which proved fatal to the empires of his successors, especially the Seleucids.
He could easily have ordered that no Greeks move East, couldn't he?
Is that something that an individual can "decide" to do? Let alone when that individual has no actual program and no apparatus for actually carrying out that program beyond the really pretty standard practice of marrying his lieutenants into the local nobility? Syncretism isn't exactly unusual in human history; there's no clear reason to attribute this particular example to Alexander simply because it kinda-sorta looked like an ideal he espoused.

I agree that late 20th century historical scholarship has often tended to be too structural and to neglect individual decision-making, but a return to the Great Man is just not tenable in light of that scholarship. The problem facing historians today isn't the decisions of towering supermen, it's the decisions of myriad individuals all crashing into each other half-blindly: dozens in even the narrowest diplomatic history, and thousands if not millions in any cultural or social history.
I'm not familiar enough with Great Man theory… but I'm catching up on works on the Ancient Greeks (Hellenistic and pre-Hellenistic). I think, so far, that one large personality could have and did influence Greeks. Look at Agathoklēs in Sicily, Pyrrhos in Epirus, Epaminondas and Pelopidas winning for Thebes, etc.
I also think it's a mistake to discount the importance of 'Hellenisation' (a deeply problematic term, but for lack of a better one) in Roman territory, because the very fact that the Greek language and aspects of the culture became so entrenched on totally foreign people in a relatively short time is impressive. Greek outlasted Latin in the East, and indeed effectively blocked the spread of the latter. True, it was largely an urban, elite phenomenon, but isn't that true for the spread of Roman culture into Britain, or of British culture into India - both of which had profound effects?
Greek lasted until the 20th century in many places. I feel a little sad thinking about that.
Punic did survive for quite a long time, though - Augustine, Apuleius and Septimius Severus all spoke it. Armenian became a written language in 405. There's evidence of Gaulish being spoken as late as the 5th century AD. I'm not sure what to make of this either, on reflection. I will restate that most speakers of western languages had to also speak Latin, and suggest that Latin had greater value and prestige than their native languages, so people would have adopted it as a means of climbing up the social scale. The same happened to a small extent in India: you still have families who insist that their children speak English at home, because that's what children from 'good families' speak. At some point the native languages and Latin must have become mixed into the creoles which eventually became the Romance languages - themselves, no doubt, intermixing over time, perhaps reinforcing the Latin elements.
Romance languages are mostly descended from Latin, although it's true that, Celtic tongues being probably the closest to the Italiote ones which amalgamated into Latin, there are a lot of words with common roots (most noticeably from my POV in the numbering system).
{Colin McEvedy}
Squeeeeeeeee

btw Legio IX Hispana were the punching-bag lot, apparently.
 
He could easily have ordered that no Greeks move East, couldn't he?

There's two answers to this, I think. The first is a question of practicality: he could well have ordered that, but how would he enforce it? Remember we're talking about a world that didn't even pretend to have a police force and where the overwhelming majority of people lived in rural areas. He could have tried to ban all emigration from the cities, I suppose, but even then the actual ability that he had to enforce it would have been tiny. True, the fact that his successors positively encouraged immigration did help, but that leads on to the second point - Greeks since time immemorial had been a people who dealt with political disagreements and overcrowding by taking to the sea, and held themselves to be a superior people than the untrustworthy barbarians. For someone raised in that mileu to actively not want Greeks to move would have been unthinkable. That's the biggest hole in the Great Man theory, I think. Even when you say that someone's choices had a great impact on history, the choices that they made are conditioned by their upbringing, the culture of their times, and those around them.

I'm not familiar enough with Great Man theory… but I'm catching up on works on the Ancient Greeks (Hellenistic and pre-Hellenistic). I think, so far, that one large personality could have and did influence Greeks. Look at Agathoklēs in Sicily, Pyrrhos in Epirus, Epaminondas and Pelopidas winning for Thebes, etc.

I think that's more a question of historiography than reality - though such divisions have to be made tentatively. Ancient Greeks certainly placed greater emphasis on their heroes than we do: you have the idea of the 'superman' hero at all levels of culture, and not-so-subtle connections being made between unquestionably real 'heroes' and probably fictional ones - look at how freely royal families adopted divine lineage, which would have made them entirely suited to being mentioned in the Iliad's catalogue of ships.

I've already mentioned what I think about decision-making being much less free than we assume - Fergus Millar in the second volume of Rome, the Greek World and the East spends about a chapter absolutely demolishing the idea that the identity of almost any given Roman emperor had a significant effect on his actions. Perhaps he goes too far, but at least he avoids understating the fact that when you're choosing an emperor from a reasonably homogeneous group of upper-class politicians or military men who have been promoted for getting the approval of said politicians, and the emperor is totally reliant on other people from the same groups for all of his information and to put his orders into practice, the effects of his rule have more to do with the time in which he finds himself than his name. I'd argue that the same is true for Greek leaders as well. There are practical concerns too, though.

Taking Epaminondas as the example, his tactical innovations preceded Thebes' rise to supremacy. The latter wouldn't have happened, though, had several other factors not come together. Thebes was already a hotbed of tactical innovation, with Pagondas during the Peloponnesian War displaying the first recorded use of reserve troops and variation to the phalanx' depth, in conception not too far from what Epaminondas did at Leuctra. Thebes needed the wealth and demographics to raise a hoplite army to challenge Sparta; had Epaminondas been born in another city or a tiny village, he might never have got his hands on an army. Finally, Sparta itself was suffering from a serious general decline, particularly in the number of citizen-soldiers that it could field, and his two great victories would not have broken her power had they been effected a century or so earlier.
 
There's two answers to this, I think. The first is a question of practicality: he could well have ordered that, but how would he enforce it? Remember we're talking about a world that didn't even pretend to have a police force and where the overwhelming majority of people lived in rural areas. He could have tried to ban all emigration from the cities, I suppose, but even then the actual ability that he had to enforce it would have been tiny. True, the fact that his successors positively encouraged immigration did help, but that leads on to the second point - Greeks since time immemorial had been a people who dealt with political disagreements and overcrowding by taking to the sea, and held themselves to be a superior people than the untrustworthy barbarians. For someone raised in that mileu to actively not want Greeks to move would have been unthinkable. That's the biggest hole in the Great Man theory, I think. Even when you say that someone's choices had a great impact on history, the choices that they made are conditioned by their upbringing, the culture of their times, and those around them. (…)
Yes, I do agree with that. Everyone is a product of their times and environment in some way… and then you get paradigm-breaking situations such as the Spanish arriving at America.
 
The Spanish intrusion into America wasn't really much of a paradigm-breaker. Traumatic, yes, but nothing fundamental about American society was changed overnight. The Spanish subsisted off indigenous tributary-systems for about a century after the conquests, gradually replacing it with wage-labour and chattel slavery in a way which mirrored contemporary developments in Europe. There wasn't any particular moment at which everything changed, or any particular individuals who we can attribute that change to.
 
Paradigm-breaking for Europeans, though - if we count Columbus as 'the Spanish'. Incidentally, does anyone know how long it took for knowledge of America to disseminate beyond Christian Europe? What's the timeline of (say) the Chinese presence in North America?
 
Off the top of my head, the Chinese started coming to 'Murica in the 19th century, or at least after its independence.

Since we're moving the topic eastwards, what if Mozism had prevailed over Confucianism?
 
There were certainly Chinese people in California by the time of the Gold Rush in 1849 - Wiki says that the first came in about 1820, though Americans traded in China from 1783. Interesting that it didn't seem to go the other way around, especially given the great pull of America for enterprising Europeans.
 
To bring this thread partially back to topic, I believe that the most important thing an individual contributes is an idea that couldn't have been formulated by anyone else. Let's take Einstein as an example. He contributed the theory of relativity and while it took several other factors for the atomic bomb to be made, without Einstein the entire process wouldn't have started. The entire theory is so complex and difficult, it is unlikely anyone besides Einstein could have come up with it. So an individual was indispensable to beginning the atomic age, but it took several other factors as well, because Einstein did need the resources of the American government and the other scientists to translate his theory into nuclear power.
 
Paradigm-breaking for Europeans, though - if we count Columbus as 'the Spanish'.
Not really. I mean, they met some exotic people and discovered some exotic new luxuries, but their world-view wasn't challenged in any fundamental way. If anything, the discovery of complex, stratified societies in Mesoamerica and the Andes confirmed what Europeans imagined to be the fundamental order of things, or at least they chose to read it as such.

The Columbian exchange was massively important, don't get me wrong, probably the most important event in human history, but its significance was slow to emerge, more a glacier than an earthquake, and contemporary chroniclers are often surprisingly oblivious to the significance of the events they witnessed.
 
But the policies of European powers changed, not so slowly, towards colonialism. Of course, they were already bent on trying to conquer less powerful neighbours in any case, but it wasn't the same.
 
Europeans were already engaged in colonialism. Spain's colonial efforts in the Caribbean were extensions of already-established policies in Andalusia and the Canaries. The English would colonised America more or less as they colonised Ireland. The Dutch and Portuguese built trading posts in Africa that largely resembled those they built in the Americas. America allowed colonial impulses to explode on a scale not seen anywhere else, but those impulses were already present within European society.

The real American paradigm shift came later, beginning in the seventeenth century and really taking hold into the eighteenth century: the consumer revolution. That was when we saw the first stirrings of modern industrial capitalism in the large-scale production of luxury goods produced for purely commercial ends, like sugar, tobacco and coffee. And, very significantly, it was the result not of grand men doing grand things, but of millions of people around the Atlantic developing a taste for certain goods and the money to acquire them.
 
As early as the 16th century though the Spanish were shipping over gold and silver from the New World back to Europe. New World bullion gold/silver transforms the world economy; it lays the foundation for the modern banking system, stimulates commerce/manufacturing and pays for international trade with Asia
 
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