Piracy Promotion

[oldnooob]

Excellent! Viola! A wonderful solution!

 

[Rezca]

Will the AI ever use it though?
Or will it be another "Anti-AI" feature for the player to use? (Like bombarding improvements from the coast)

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Will the AI ever use it though?
Or will it be another "Anti-AI" feature for the player to use? (Like bombarding improvements from the coast)

If I coded correctly, it should be able to use it. Just like privateers.

 

[Vokarya]

You might be both right. My concern is that I don't want this promotion to be abused. But since it needs Navigation III and you don't have many XP granting buildings at the start, it might be ok anyway to grant it from earlier. If Vokarya has other suggestions, we'll change that. But we'll also have to change Navigation III prereq for Piracy because Navigation III becomes available at Navigation. Making only Navigation II prereq for Piracy is a bit weak for me.

I'll look some more into it and especially look at the XP curve for naval units. My first thought is that Navigation III might be too much, as that's 17 XP out of the starting blocks (only 10 with Naval Academy, but I think that might need some reworking as well).

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I'll look some more into it and especially look at the XP curve for naval units. My first thought is that Navigation III might be too much, as that's 17 XP out of the starting blocks (only 10 with Naval Academy, but I think that might need some reworking as well).

Would it be better making it Navigation II and Coastal Attack as I've suggested? The idea would be that you can't just create a pirate ship from scratch. You need to earn XP points through battles if you want to get that promotion.

 

[triplebassist]

Would it be better making it Navigation II and Coastal Attack as I've suggested? The idea would be that you can't just create a pirate ship from scratch. You need to earn XP points through battles if you want to get that promotion.

That would still be 17 XP in order to get the promotion. I know we want this to have to be earned, but I don't think we can reasonably have the promotion be any later than the third option (10 XP) before it becomes available.

 

[aggri1]

That would still be 17 XP in order to get the promotion. I know we want this to have to be earned, but I don't think we can reasonably have the promotion be any later than the third option (10 XP) before it becomes available.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have trouble earning experience points with boats in combat, since it's so often a 50-50 affair (or near to it). I too would rarely expect to have boats with 17XP, except in the late game when lots of buildings can be used to boost starting XP.

 

[Vokarya]

Would it be better making it Navigation II and Coastal Attack as I've suggested? The idea would be that you can't just create a pirate ship from scratch. You need to earn XP points through battles if you want to get that promotion.

Coastal Attack I is a really good idea. That would make CA more useful. Looking at the XP curves shows that CA + Nav 2 is difficult before the mid-Renaissance but fairly easy afterwards; Volunteer Army + Meeting Hall + Naval Academy is 10 XP plus Navigation I, so a ship can start with Piracy right off the bat at this point. I think the only way to stop this is to make the entire prerequisite chain Coastal Attack (so Coastal Attack 3 instead of Navigation 3), or otherwise pick promotions that aren't granted for free. This promotion is looking to me like being equivalent to Commando; theoretically wonderful, but so difficult to achieve that it's rarely going to appear.

The tech requirement for Piracy seems to be a formality more than anything else, and it's the availability of XP that is really going to drive when this promotion is going to appear.

Also, I'm wondering a bit about the classes of ships that are eligible. I don't mind Wooden Ships, and probably even Steam, but I'm wondering why a Fusion Battleship would be allowed to go pirate. On the other hand, I'm also wondering why the Submarine class is excluded. Maybe that would be too good.

 

[oldnooob]

Why can't pirates be limited to wooden vessels?
Historically the pirate era pretty much ended with wooden vessels. modern pirates are limited to very small coastal type boats which I am sure you do not want in this mod.

 

[<Nexus>]

Why can't pirates be limited to wooden vessels?
Historically the pirate era pretty much ended with wooden vessels. modern pirates are limited to very small coastal type boats which I am sure you do not want in this mod.

Disagree:
5 Things You Never Knew About Modern-Day Pirates

Coastal Attack I is a really good idea. That would make CA more useful. Looking at the XP curves shows that CA + Nav 2 is difficult before the mid-Renaissance but fairly easy afterwards; Volunteer Army + Meeting Hall + Naval Academy is 10 XP plus Navigation I, so a ship can start with Piracy right off the bat at this point. I think the only way to stop this is to make the entire prerequisite chain Coastal Attack (so Coastal Attack 3 instead of Navigation 3), or otherwise pick promotions that aren't granted for free. This promotion is looking to me like being equivalent to Commando; theoretically wonderful, but so difficult to achieve that it's rarely going to appear.

So the easiest way will be to assign a GreatGeneral on ship(s). Something I never did before

 

[nionios]

Of course we could implement piracy in modern eras by creating fast,low combat strength units limited to pillage sea improvements and only defend.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Of course we could implement piracy in modern eras by creating fast,low combat strength units limited to pillage sea improvements and only defend.

I don't think that's worth the effort, to tell the truth.

@Vokarya, all in all I think the best solution is NavII+CA. CA III seems too specific for me. I think Pirate promoted ships should be fast (Navigation) insead of strong. After all making it NavII+CA won't make it easy to start from scratch with a pirate ship but won't even make it impossible, so it's ok to me. I'll change it like that unless there's a solid reason to make it CAIII beside stopping ships with Piracy right off the bat.
Also, I agree with unit classes. I'm taking off Nuclear Ships but I'm adding Subs.

 

[oldnooob]

@ Sogroon, your pirate link proves my point about modern piracy. the "romantic era" of piracy ended with wooden vessels. modern pirates are mostly coastal based using mostly boats such as converted fishing boats.
The discussion so far has completely ignored the basic description of piracy that I have been describing . The discussion does not address the concept that piracy began as soon as man discovered that a hollowed out log could be used as a means of transport. The discussion ignores the types of pirating ie; ship based land attacks to pillage, modern day attacks for ransom.

I understand the reluctance to add more NEW unit types to the mod and that's why I have suggested that pirate activity simply disappears after wooden vessels.

I believe that @45 is basically on the right track with his suggestion, however I believe that allowing a pirate promotion at the game start would be the simplest solution as pirate vessels simply could not exist until vessels were invented and readily available. as far as being overpowered just simply limit the number permitted per civ and lower the exp%. Their advantage would be 100% loot plus +1or+2 coastal attack. they would be not be able to pillage land areas as this mod has no rogues or assassins etc.

 

[Rezca]

Piracy in that case might be the wrong term to use for the promotion then. "Romantic" or not, just paying off mercenaries or some other faction to attack and sink the ships of their enemies without the attack orders being traced back to their empire is really enough. Since they're promotions issued by a leader, they're obviously not working on their own incentives - so why would it matter if their boat is made of wood or not?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Don't forget about "pirate" vessels during ww2. I think about some German commerce raiders which weren't meant to attack warships but could engage other lightly armed vessels.

 

[Rezca]

Don't forget about "pirate" vessels during ww2. I think about some German commerce raiders which weren't meant to attack warships but could engage other lightly armed vessels.

That was what I was thinking about, thanks ^^

 

[oldnooob]

I understand your point but how would something like that be implemented in this game without adding rogues or some such? and how would you code the rouges to take over a vessel which then would become pirate? Do you see how complicated your idea is? Sure it would be a great addition but I am sure that it is out of the scope of this mod.

@Rezca this comment addresses your first comment.

 

[oldnooob]

@45 I believe that restricting the number of vessels per civ would address this.

Note; the pocket battleship Graf Spay still lies at the bottom of the river in Argentina.

 

[Samson]

I am looking forward to trying this out, but I suspect it could be really overpowered. If the player gets to Iron Frigates before the AI, it is possible they could eliminate all AI navies fairly easily. It seems that the RoMAND AI is more prone to suiciding earlier ships against more advanced ones (I had an AI navy of some 30 odd galleys die against my stack of caravels the other day), so I suspect you could just move such a stack out of port for a turn (preferably with a great commander in a non-pirate ship), get attacked by anyone and everyone, and then return to port to heal. Repeat a few times and the seas will be yours, your ships and general will be promoted and you can go and earn money from blockades.

As I say, it sounds fun.

 

[oldnooob]

To repeat myself, the solution would be to limit the number available to each civ. One or two vessels can be overpowered easily by the AI.