C2C - Building Review Thread

[Hydromancerx]

I actually agree - this approach would both be more and less ruthless with the penalties matching the... erm... crime more appropriately to the city suffering it.

Now, all we gotta do is get Hydro's attention on the issue since crime buildings are his garden to caretake.

Everyone has been making good points.

However having it later at say trade seems too late.

Perhaps having it scale up like BlueGenie said is the right course of action. Sch a a little penalty at barter, some more at Trade and so on as other techs come like Consumerism, etc.

 

[Faustmouse]

Thanks Hydro, but what about the % approach?

Also, I was thinking about the Ellis Island Wonder. Is it still broken and only gives "European"?
I could fix it with several auto buildings, all require the wonder and each grant a free culture Asian, African etc in each city. Not very efficient, but it would be a solution.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Thanks Hydro, but what about the % approach?

Also, I was thinking about the Ellis Island Wonder. Is it still broken and only gives "European"?
I could fix it with several auto buildings, all require the wonder and each grant a free culture Asian, African etc in each city. Not very efficient, but it would be a solution.

The Topkapi Palace wonder is also broken as it is supposed to give you the base culture of all your vassals.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Thanks Hydro, but what about the % approach?

I think we don't need the % at the moment. In fact I try to avoid % whenever possible due to it tending to skew all the gold.

 

[Faustmouse]

Some buildings have % where I don't think it would make much sense. Market Scales for example. Or Carnival with 20% (!) .

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Carnival will be changing anyway. The value is still the same as it was in the mod we cloned it from, probably FFH.

Carnival will be replaced by Traveling Show. That way it can be reused for the holidays mod.

I am trying to figure out how to limit the number of cages/enclosures you can have for a building. The idea is Traveling Show (at Trade) can have 3, Governor's Menagerie can have 3 at Masonry and 6 at Monarchy and so on. Zoo's and Wild Life Parks can have as many as possible.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Some buildings have % where I don't think it would make much sense. Market Scales for example. Or Carnival with 20% (!) .

There's too little Culture in the game and reducing it negates any chance for Cultural Victory to be even viable as a Victory Condition. As strange as it may seem there are many players who don't like Mastery Victory and prefer the original Victory Conditions.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think we don't need the % at the moment. In fact I try to avoid % whenever possible due to it tending to skew all the gold.

%s would be extremely appropriate for crimes though. This way the amount the crime takes away would be based on the amount the city is otherwise bringing in.

 

[Faustmouse]

There's too little Culture in the game and reducing it negates any chance for Cultural Victory to be even viable as a Victory Condition. As strange as it may seem there are many players who don't like Mastery Victory and prefer the original Victory Conditions.

JosEPh

But to have tons of small buildings and then this 20% monster seems wrong as well. It just seems out of place, that's all. I also think there is too less in the modern and beyond era. Before that, building costs and scale nicely, but at some point, only the costs increase. Especially with Automated Urbanization etc or other automating techs in the TH era, I think there should be HUGE building cost modifier (those that Pulley or Construction Firm have) so you can build buildings slightly faster then you could in the Modern era.

Also, I think we overdone Education boni. Not gameplay wise, but from a logical pov. I can understand that Stick Combat or Colosseum add some Education, because they teach new warriors how to fight and keep this knowledge, but on the other hand, Fishing Hut has no Education. But they also teach how to fish, make nets etc! I think we should first have a clear definition, of what Education actually IS. IMHO, it should be limited to teaching facilities, like School of Scribes, Libraries, Universities, that actually deal with keeping and distribute Knowledge, more then generate new knowledge. So:

Education: Keeping existing knowledge, spread it trough others.
Science: Generate new knowledge.

Sadly, Stick Combat, Bakery etc would all fit in the discription of Education. And especially in the early game the line is quite blurrish. But I hope you get my point.


Last thing on Education: Currently it is much better to build Storytellers then to build the numberous Stories, Tales and Myths, costwise. The only benefit is that these buildings don't require unit upkeep cost, but therefore they only generate 1 Education while Storytellers with Promotions and Build Up line can make at least 3 per turn, if not more. And they are way cheaper. In fact, I'm pretty sure if you spend 50 turns to build all story buildings, or 20 (probably less) turns building Storytellers and the remaining 30 rounds building Wealth, you are far better with approach No 2.

As a balance aim I personally would recommend: A city of appropiate size (6 at Sed. Lifestlye, 12 at Classical Lifestlye, 20 at the end of classical era) should be able to level out around 0 for each property, only with buildings and no units involved on Emperor (is this the C2C balance reference, or are you still using Noble?)

 

[Hydromancerx]

There's too little Culture in the game and reducing it negates any chance for Cultural Victory to be even viable as a Victory Condition. As strange as it may seem there are many players who don't like Mastery Victory and prefer the original Victory Conditions.

JosEPh

Oh? I did not realize that was hard to come by. I always assumed we had too much.

Also I am all for supporting every type of victory condition as being a viable way to win if the player choosers to play that way.

As we have said before, there are MANY ways to play Caveman2Cosmos. That is one of he great things about the mod.

 

[BlueGenie]

With culture I use the third ring viability in cities as a reference as if in most games played;
one reaches Influential culture level in a FEW other cities than the Capital before able to build the Metropolitan (reaching Social Contract Technology) but not too many then the Culture level is rather appropriate;
one reaches Influential culture level in a lot of cities easily and a long ways before Social Contract then there is a bit much Culture (or the levels needs adjusting up);
one has a ways to go still in all but possibly the Capital to reach any Influential culture level then the culture is too little and needs increasing (or the levels need adjusting down).

How do you guys reference too much or too little culture?

Cheers

 

[Harrier]

I am trying to figure out how to limit the number of cages/enclosures you can have for a building. The idea is Traveling Show (at Trade) can have 3, Governor's Menagerie can have 3 at Masonry and 6 at Monarchy and so on. Zoo's and Wild Life Parks can have as many as possible.

I do not know how many cages are available in total. Can you give a clue?

But Zoo's should be restricted - say 9 or 12. My reasoning is that a lot of zoo's are built in Urban area's and have no room to expand.

i.e. London Zoo is in the center of London. Unless they takeover Regents park or pull down (expensive) buildings in primrose hill area- no expansion.

Wild Life Parks tend to be created in the country side - with lots of open space to,expand into - so yes should maybe be unlimited.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I do not know how many cages are available in total. Can you give a clue?

Currently one per animal type IE 11 but people have been asking for one per animal which would make it hundreds..

 

[Faustmouse]

While I like the idea of limited cages per building, I'm afraid this will be a bit overcomplicated. Imagine you have no idea on that new concept and try to figure out, why your subdued lion can't build it's cage. I think it should be possible somhow, but if it is displayed in the game (not the Pedia) that your Menagerie only allows for x cages is another question.

If you adopt the system, then I think we should change stats for Menagerie etc and the cages. What would be a Zoo without animals? Nobody would pay for that. We can assume that those buildings come in with "standard" animals, so a small , or :culture is justified (and probably necessary for the AI as well), but cages should give the majority of the effect.

Currently one per animal type IE 11 but people have been asking for one per animal which would make it hundreds.

How big is the influence from buildings on the memory footprint?
I wonder if it would make sense to have minimizer options available, that cuts repetetive clutter. For example:

- All those Farm buildings that makes Fruit, Vegetables, Drugs, Seasoning etc. can be replaced by 1 building.

- Animals can be limited to have only one Bear, one Wolf etc instead of having Sun Bear, Polar Bear.... I think this already exists, or was it in AND?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

- Animals can be limited to have only one Bear, one Wolf etc instead of having Sun Bear, Polar Bear.... I think this already exists, or was it in AND?

That is one of my current projects. You get the choice of lots of different animals or just a few. You will still get lots of animals in game either way. If you set the option to the smaller number of types of animal it will have a slightly smaller memory footprint since the art will not be loaded in subsequent sessions.

 

[Faustmouse]

Appearently Shoplifing now gives - instead of - at least from techs.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Appearently Shoplifing now gives - instead of - at least from techs.

Doh!

 

[JosEPh_II]

But to have tons of small buildings and then this 20% monster seems wrong as well. It just seems out of place, that's all. <snip>

Hydro wrote:Oh? I did not realize that was hard to come by. I always assumed we had too much.

Try expanding your cultural borders to take over a tile that was once yours. No Realistic Culture Spread, No Mastery Victory, No Leader Traits Options of Any kind, No developing Leader Option, and No Minimum City Tile Option (big one this is) and I'm positive I'm leaving out another 1 or 2 Options that are not needed; and the Base Mod is still difficult to win over or win back a tile from an AI (as it should be But not impossible as it was not long ago). No there is Not Too Much Culture for the Base Mod.

I'm of the mind that too many of you Modders do not play with Only the Base Mod for overall development and balancing. Instead you all have your Pet options that you play with All the time. From a Design standpoint that in itself is unbalancing. If the base Mod is tuned then adding in Options and balancing those Options would be a much easier process. But for the last 5+ years that has never been the case here. And I think it's caused causalities along the way, impo.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I use mostly the base options. I play on noble difficulty snail speed.

I started using Realistic Cultural Spread because I was finding that I was getting the 4th around my city before Tribalism. Unfortunately RCS is based on a model that is just plain wrong for the prehistoric period as it assumes you are interested in getting as much farm land as possible.

I use the city limits option because it stops me expanding but has no effect on the AI players.

I have stopped using any of the trait options. The only one I tried was the "No Positive traits" one and with it I can't keep up with any of the AI players in cities, science, or units.

I use Usable Mountains (essential), Advanced Espionage, Advanced Diplomacy, Barbarian Generals (needed for the Hunters) and Advanced Nukes. Although I have not played past the Renaissance for 3-6 months with the early era testing I have been doing so I don't get to the the Nukes and Diplomacy stuff.

 

[Hydromancerx]

My reasoning is that a lot of zoo's are built in Urban area's and have no room to expand.

Skyscraper Zoos.