Reform of CFC Public Discussion of Moderator Action Rules

[Double A]

I'm certainly not saying that there is a clique or cabal or movement. I am saying that c 60 people out of the CFC membership feel strongly enough about this issue to vote. The low turnout suggests that there isn't a widespread clamour for change on the rules regarding discussion of moderator actions.

Anyone has the right to protest as vociferously as they wish (within the bounds of civility) but without public support (i.e. membership of CFC) the demands for change won't get very far.

So you're saying we should repress minorities?

 

[Loppan Torkel]

I wouldn't want to be repressed just because I'm in minority. I don't usually feel that repressed, though. Perhaps I belong to a clique of irrepressible.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I'm certainly not saying that there is a clique or cabal or movement. I am saying that c 60 people out of the CFC membership feel strongly enough about this issue to vote. The low turnout suggests that there isn't a widespread clamour for change on the rules regarding discussion of moderator actions.

Anyone has the right to protest as vociferously as they wish (within the bounds of civility) but without public support (i.e. membership of CFC) the demands for change won't get very far.

For a rather fringe message board like Site Feedback, this turn out isn't bad at all. I wouldn't be looking at this place if I wasn't a target of some sanctioned trolling.

But you are right that it is difficult to do much without a massive public outcry because it will have to rely on the good-will of the moderators. This is like real world politics in many ways.

 

[pigswill]

I'm slightly puzzled that 'anyone has the right to protest' can be interpreted as saying 'we should repress minorities' but I'm easily confused .

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I'm slightly puzzled that 'anyone has the right to protest' can be interpreted as saying 'we should repress minorities' but I'm easily confused .

That's not what you said, I believe. Let's not distract ourselves on this.

 

[Birdjaguar]

PDMA issues generally fall into one of these three groups. I've added the currently accepted ways of resolving or communicating about them in brackets.

A specific complaint about something that happened to me. [PMs; Appeals; private]
A specific complaint about something that happened to someone else. [PMs; private]

Specific questions about moderation that are not tied to a specific incident. [SF; public]
General questions about moderation. [SF; public]
General or specific questions to specific moderators. [PMs; SF; private or public]
A general or specific complaint about moderation not tied to a specific incident. [SF; public]

A general complaint about a specific moderator. [PM, private]
A specific complaint about a specific moderator. [PM; private]

"Moderation" also means "infractions, bans, rules and interpretation of rules".

My question: Which of the four "private" items do you want to make more public?

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

A general complaint about a specific moderator. [PM, private]
A specific complaint about a specific moderator. [PM; private]

Tried that and it didn't work.

My question: Which of the four "private" items do you want to make more public?

All

 

[Valka D'Ur]

PDMA issues generally fall into one of these three groups. I've added the currently accepted ways of resolving or communicating about them in brackets.

A specific complaint about something that happened to me. [PMs; Appeals; private]
A specific complaint about something that happened to someone else. [PMs; private]

Specific questions about moderation that are not tied to a specific incident. [SF; public]
General questions about moderation. [SF; public]
General or specific questions to specific moderators. [PMs; SF; private or public]
A general or specific complaint about moderation not tied to a specific incident. [SF; public]

A general complaint about a specific moderator. [PM, private]
A specific complaint about a specific moderator. [PM; private]

"Moderation" also means "infractions, bans, rules and interpretation of rules".

My question: Which of the four "private" items do you want to make more public?

What do you suggest when a member has a question to ask a moderator, and the moderator refuses to answer both in Site Feedback and via PM? Just ignoring the member isn't going to make the question go away and and creates a further issue of disrespect toward the member.

I'm thinking about the occasions when the member asks a question, doesn't get an answer, posts a reminder that goes like "Moderator X, three weeks ago I asked you about ____ and you haven't answered. May I have a reply, please?" and the member promptly gets slapped with a PDMA infraction. There is no. way. that it's a fair thing to infract someone for reminding a staff member that they have an unanswered question that needs a reply.

 

[BSmith1068]

If it were me I'd report my initial post and ask that way. It is sure to get more staff attention in the reported post forum than it might otherwise.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

If it were me I'd report my initial post and ask that way. It is sure to get more staff attention in the reported post forum than it might otherwise.

And it might also get a "nat" comment and nobody else would even bother. After all, the report function itself states:

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts, or other posts that need moderator attention / action (threads needing to be closed or moved etc).

Into which of these categories does "I asked Moderator X a question 3 weeks ago and he won't answer either in the thread or via PM" fit?

 

[JohannaK]

"need moderator attention"

 

[BSmith1068]

The chances of someone specifically asking for a reply to an outstanding issue in a reported post getting a NAT response are pretty low, and if I ever saw that happening I’d sure has heck push for a direct response. And yeah, I’d classify that kind of report as “needing moderator attention”.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

"need moderator attention"

It's specified if the thread needs to be closed, moved, etc. Many questions people need to ask of mods have nothing to do with the mechanics of the thread, but rather of part of its content.

 

[BSmith1068]

If a PM to a specific moderator is not getting a reply (shouldn't happen) then by all means I'd consider a report of the post as needing moderator attention. The "etc" part covers the possibilities outside of the explicitly stated examples that would fit into needing moderator attention.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

There are times when the issue isn't about a reported post, but rather it pertains to a Site Feedback discussion.

 

[BSmith1068]

The reported post in this example is a means of getting a specific response to the discussion when other means have not worked. To be clear here I am recommending that the user report their own post that is pending an answer as a means to get moderator attention rather than publicly posting "hey I didn't get an answer", though even that in Site Feedback should be OK.

 

[Birdjaguar]

A general complaint about a specific moderator. [PM, private]
A specific complaint about a specific moderator. [PM; private]

Tried that and it didn't work.

My question: Which of the four "private" items do you want to make more public?

All

When you say "didn't work, what do you mean? No one answered your PM? Or, you didn't get the response you wanted? Or, you didn't have the conversation you wanted? Or, was it something else?

Complaints about specific moderators are like personnel matters and probably not going to be subject to public scrutiny below the admin level. Public floggings are best done behind closed doors. For example, five or so years ago I would, from time to time, "over respond" to a particularly annoying poster. Mea culpa. Apparently, someone complained and I received a pm from ainwood about my inappropriate behavior with this poster. I took the hint and have been more careful ever since.

If looser PDMA is primarily about trying to change specific moderator decisions by expanding the people who are participating, I think it is likely to fail. You need to be very clear about what your goal is.

What do you suggest when a member has a question to ask a moderator, and the moderator refuses to answer both in Site Feedback and via PM? Just ignoring the member isn't going to make the question go away and and creates a further issue of disrespect toward the member.

I think you already know the answer to this. It is to move the discussion to a higher level. If the offender is a regular mod, then ask a supermod for help. If the offender is a supermod, then ask an admin. The final arbiter, now, I think is Petek or maybe Lefty in matters of moderation. The most important thing is to be articulate in your request and state why it is important. "Rage" is a poor writing style when you want to influence someone to act on your behalf.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I think you already know the answer to this. It is to move the discussion to a higher level. If the offender is a regular mod, then ask a supermod for help. If the offender is a supermod, then ask an admin. The final arbiter, now, I think is Petek or maybe Lefty in matters of moderation. The most important thing is to be articulate in your request and state why it is important. "Rage" is a poor writing style when you want to influence someone to act on your behalf.

Condescension and ignoring legitimate questions and complaints is a poor writing style that helps start the problem in the first place.

 

[Double A]

Public floggings are best done behind closed doors.

wait what

 

[gay_Aleks]

That's not how public floggings work, but let's not derail this thread..not that a derail wouldn't improve it.