Questions and Discussions on Venice

[Athenaeum]

This assumes all DLC and expansions are being used.

I wanted to ask some things about Venice and get some opinions about them, and have a general discussion.

1) The first couple of times I played them, I rushed optics and used their MoV to buy the nearest city-state ASAP. Now I'm thinking that's not the best idea, because when you a buy a CS too early, it has often not improved its own luxuries yet, and might not even have a worker.

Because of this, I thought it might be better to wait before buying your first CS. However, I feel like rushing the Great Lighthouse is an advisable thing to do with them. So I thought maybe it would be a good idea to use your first MoV instead on a CS ally. If you got a CS ally early on, you could get a fantastic boost to your culture and/or faith. In fact, since the MoV gives 60 influence instead of 30, you could use the trade mission gold to buy another CS and you would have two CS friends.

What do you guys think of this idea?

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2) Also what social policies do you think are best to adopt with Venice? The problem is that I think there are a lot of trees you would want to adopt with them, namely Patronage, Commerce and Rationalism. Patronage and Commerce are pretty obvious, and Rationalism would help them overcome the science penalty for puppets. However, you would need to get a lot of culture from this. This is why I think it might be good to use their MoV for a culture CS ally early on.

But that brings me to another question - how much culture do CS's give you per era? If you got an early culture CS ally (or friend), would it even give you that much culture to make a noticeable difference?

So in all, with Venice you would want at least 3 policy trees (Patronage, Commerce and Rationalism) IMO, and probably one of the starting trees too (Tradition or Liberty). So I'm trying to figure out the best way to do all that.


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3) With Venice, do you think it's best to go Tradition first, Liberty, or to completely skip these two altogether and go for Patronage or something?

I'm asking this because I don't know if puppet cities benefit from all the Tradition/Liberty bonuses. For example, do puppets gain free Aqueducts and Monuments from adopting Tradition? And do they get the +1 hammer from that Liberty policy? What about the +1 happiness per city connection with capital (Liberty policy)?

I've read a couple guides and people seem to recommend Tradition. There seems to be a fairly strong consensus that Tradition is better than Liberty in general. However with Venice you have the ability to gain 2 MoV's with Liberty whereas you can get none with Tradition. With this taken into consideration, is it really best to go Tradition with Venice instead of Liberty?


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Sorry for the long post, but please read what you want and give advice/opinions on what you can.

 

[joncnunn]

#1 You indeed want the City state to have improved its luxury before buying.

#2 Full Rationalism is best for everybody, including Venice, no matter what your intended victory condition is.

#3 Yes, Tradition actually benefits Venice even more compared to everybody else.
Creating GMOV is NOT the obstacle. Happiness is. Tradition's 50% reduction in unhappiness in the capital plus the growth bonuses (especially in capital) benefit Venice even more than anybody else.
The only reasons the Liberty tree turns settler into GMOV are:
1. AI has reduced unhappiness compared to the human at Prince that get even bigger the higher difficulty level the human is on. (So happiness isn't as much of an issue to AI)

2. AI is known to in games with 0 city states go ahead and complete Patronage anyway. So the developers had to give an alternative for AI Venice to prevent the poor AI from wasting a policy.

 

[Athenaeum]

#1 You indeed want the City state to have improved its luxury before buying.

#2 Full Rationalism is best for everybody, including Venice, no matter what your intended victory condition is.

#3 Yes, Tradition actually benefits Venice even more compared to everybody else.
Creating GMOV is NOT the obstacle. Happiness is. Tradition's 50% reduction in unhappiness in the capital plus the growth bonuses (especially in capital) benefit Venice even more than anybody else.
The only reasons the Liberty tree turns settler into GMOV are:
1. AI has reduced unhappiness compared to the human at Prince that get even bigger the higher difficulty level the human is on. (So happiness isn't as much of an issue to AI)

2. AI is known to in games with 0 city states go ahead and complete Patronage anyway. So the developers had to give an alternative for AI Venice to prevent the poor AI from wasting a policy.

If you're in a game with 0 city states, wouldn't venice still be wasting that liberty policy by getting a MoV that it couldn't use for trade missions or purchasing?

Also, great merchants are kind of hard to come by early on until you get markets. If you go Tradition, I feel that you're going to be vulnerable for quite some time from having only one city. This is why it seems best to me to get the extra great merchants from Liberty.

Also the Tradition growth bonus is kind of measly outside the capital. And you don't get that growth bonus until you finish the whole tree. So if you're going for Patronage and Rationalism, and decide to leave Tradition and come back to it later, that lessens the benefits of the finisher.

 

[Athenaeum]

Also if you adopt Liberty with Venice, and get the MoV's from that, I feel that it can free up the MoV you get from Optics so you can use that MoV to get a CS ally (or 2 CS friends) which can give you a vital early culture or faith boost.

 

[shaglio]

If you're in a game with 0 city states, wouldn't venice still be wasting that liberty policy by getting a MoV that it couldn't use for trade missions or purchasing?

Also, great merchants are kind of hard to come by early on until you get markets. If you go Tradition, I feel that you're going to be vulnerable for quite some time from having only one city. This is why it seems best to me to get the extra great merchants from Liberty.

Also the Tradition growth bonus is kind of measly outside the capital. And you don't get that growth bonus until you finish the whole tree. So if you're going for Patronage and Rationalism, and decide to leave Tradition and come back to it later, that lessens the benefits of the finisher.

Tradition is amazing for the growth of the capital and, to a lesser extent, your next 3 cities. Since Venice is just your capital and a bunch of puppets, all you need are Tradition's tremendous capital benefits. You don't really want your puppets to grow too big anyway because that'll just lead to Unhappiness issues.

Usually people are in a rush to found their expansion cities early because the AI gobbles up all the good locations and will forward settle on you if they get the chance. But with Venice, there's no rush because your "expansion" cities already exist in the form of City States. In fact, the longer you wait to use your GMoV's to puppet CS's, the more time they have to improve the land, build some infrastructure, and provide you with an insta-army.

For additional SPs, joncnunn already mentioned that Rationalism is good for everyone. One that people seem to overlook is Exploration. Since Venice is virtually guaranteed a coastal start and CS's are often on the coast as well (map dependent, of course - some maps, like Highlands, don't even have coast at all), Exploration's production bonus and Happiness & Gold for Lighthouse/Harbor/Seaport are highly beneficial. The pseudo Great Lighthouse from the opener is helpful if you have a lot of Great Galleasses, and the Great Admiral might appeal to you, but not everyone. If you use some of your 2x Trade Routes for Cargo Ship, then +4 adds up too.

 

[Athenaeum]

Tradition is amazing for the growth of the capital and, to a lesser extent, your next 3 cities. Since Venice is just your capital and a bunch of puppets, all you need are Tradition's tremendous capital benefits. You don't really want your puppets to grow too big anyway because that'll just lead to Unhappiness issues.

Usually people are in a rush to found their expansion cities early because the AI gobbles up all the good locations and will forward settle on you if they get the chance. But with Venice, there's no rush because your "expansion" cities already exist in the form of City States. In fact, the longer you wait to use your GMoV's to puppet CS's, the more time they have to improve the land, build some infrastructure, and provide you with an insta-army.

For additional SPs, joncnunn already mentioned that Rationalism is good for everyone. One that people seem to overlook is Exploration. Since Venice is virtually guaranteed a coastal start and CS's are often on the coast as well (map dependent, of course - some maps, like Highlands, don't even have coast at all), Exploration's production bonus and Happiness & Gold for Lighthouse/Harbor/Seaport are highly beneficial. The pseudo Great Lighthouse from the opener is helpful if you have a lot of Great Galleasses, and the Great Admiral might appeal to you, but not everyone. If you use some of your 2x Trade Routes for Cargo Ship, then +4 adds up too.

You raise a good point with Exploration being useful for Venice, but that just reinforces what I said about wanting to adopt more social policies, thus it would be more beneficial to get an early city state culture ally, and thus you would want to have more MoV's to expend.

Like I said, you are missing out on 2 MoVs by not going liberty. You dont necessarily need to use those MoVs on purchasing City states. You can use them to recruit allies and accumulate faith and culture, which you need a lot of considering how many SP's you want to adopt as Venice.

 

[CraigMak]

With Venice I would say that filling out tradition is paramount since you're stuck on only 1 city. I would probably also rush hanging gardens like there's no tomorrow. Then Patronage is going to be very beneficial until rationalism is possible.

I don't see exploration being used over filling out patronage policies. Even if you have coastal puppets the 3 hammers is not that great since you don't get to choose what they're making and can't ever make units with them.

 

[beetle]

My few Venice games have felt like a chore, but now I am wondering if that is maybe because I went Liberty for the two free MoVs instead of Tradition?

But how do I choose between the Patronage, Exploration, and Commerce trees? They all seem super important to Venice. Are picks among those trees valuable enough to justify not filling out Rationalism if I am pursing something other than a DiploV? I guess Patronage and Exploration can be cherry picked, but being able to faith-purchase MoVs seems like it would be essential to any VC.

 

[shaglio]

I don't see exploration being used over filling out patronage policies. Even if you have coastal puppets the 3 hammers is not that great since you don't get to choose what they're making and can't ever make units with them.

I suppose, but if you're playing on a smaller map and use a bunch of GMoV's to gobble up the CS's, then Patronage isn't going to help much.

For example, a Tiny map has 8 CS's. If you use 5 GMoV's to acquire CS's, then you're getting the benefits of the Patronage tree for only 3 CS's.

 

[beetle]

Smaller maps already give the player a disproportionate advantage anyway, and OCC especially is easier on smaller maps.

But your comment makes me reconsider! If I am not pursing a DiploV, why does Venice need Patronage at all?

I very much agree that a CS ally is significantly better than a CS puppet. I would argue that MoVs should only be used on CS that are allied with opponents. But if used for CS influence, does a MoV do any better than a GMe? Even if you do it early in the game, when cultural CS are of the most value, is it not something of waste just to use MoV for CS influence? Or is the UA so very weak that it does not matter?

 

[CraigMak]

Smaller maps already give the player a disproportionate advantage anyway, and OCC especially is easier on smaller maps.

But your comment makes me reconsider! If I am not pursing a DiploV, why does Venice need Patronage at all?

I very much agree that a CS ally is significantly better than a CS puppet. I would argue that MoVs should only be used on CS that are allied with opponents. But if used for CS influence, does a MoV do any better than a GMe? Even if you do it early in the game, when cultural CS are of the most value, is it not something of waste just to use MoV for CS influence? Or is the UA so very weak that it does not matter?

I would use MOV on CS that are near me so that caravans and cargos can feed my cap from them. CS that are too far away to safely run trade routes from should be allied with. Those far away CS will also tend to be closer to the enemy and harrase them for me

 

[CraigMak]

I suppose, but if you're playing on a smaller map and use a bunch of GMoV's to gobble up the CS's, then Patronage isn't going to help much.

For example, a Tiny map has 8 CS's. If you use 5 GMoV's to acquire CS's, then you're getting the benefits of the Patronage tree for only 3 CS's.

You can think of a scenario in which any piece of advise does not apply well. Let's talk about normal situations in which constructive advise is generally useful.

Puppetting all the CS is not a good idea. Allied CS give amazing benefits.

 

[Athenaeum]

Ive never actually filled out with Patronage with Venice, but looking at it again I think I should. I think commerce might be more important for them but if you could finish Patronage not too long after Commerce becomes available, that would be awesome.

I think its a good idea to keep one CS near your capital as an ally instead of s puppet so u can still conduct trade missions with it if everyone else wipes out the other city states, or if they become unreachable (surrounded by AI territory for example.

 

[beetle]

I would use MOV on CS that are near me so that caravans and cargos can feed my cap from them. CS that are too far away to safely run trade routes from should be allied with. Those far away CS will also tend to be closer to the enemy and harrase them for me

Very clever points that did not occur to me!

Allied CS give amazing benefits.

Yes, but that is true for every civ and every game. Which is why Patronage generally is a strong tree. But Venice has sooo much money, should they not skip Patronage to focus on Commerce, Rationalism, and Freedom?

 

[reddishrecue]

Venice could seem like a good challenge. Purchasing city states could give you a faraway separated empire if other civilizations somehow get to build cities on top of your roads that connect your capital with the purchased city states. When city states are purchased, they often come with a idle worker that is usually done with the nearby improved tiles that are used by the local city. As the puppets stay, they no longer need you to choose what to build because they already build it themselves. Barbarians that are nearby won't be able to keep your resources plundered with a free idle worker because once you kill their unit, the idle worker can easily come back out again and rebuild the plundered resource that barbarians plundered. Its important to defend Venicefrom its possible enemies pparticularly barbarians or civilizations that want to cleverly build cities on top of road connections that destroy trade route connections.

 

[beetle]

FWIW, I just finished up my easiest SV Deity game ever with Venice. I also came close to CV without trying, and had to avoid the Diplo win. I can only conclude that Tradition >> Liberty for Venice, and wish I had known that for my early first tries with them! This was on Archipelago (which tends to be easy mode anyway), because when I tried Pangaea I was ice-locked from using cargo ships. Venice is still about my least favorite civ to play because having zero control over expos just kills the fun for me. Until these couple of games, I also didn't appreciate how dependent on RNG Venice is for starting dirt. Sure, a good initial coastal is guaranteed, but that is not half of what Venice needs to be competitive.

I don't think Venice needs Patronage. Freedom for the CS influence via trade routes would also seem to be a prerequisite for any Venice VC. That tenet is strong for any game, but with all the extra trade routes, Venice cannot afford to pass on it! But even if SV and Diplo wins are smooth, Venice is just too constrained for my tastes. For Deity Venice, Tradition is really the only viable opening tree, and Freedom the only viable Ideology.

Late game (after Commerce completed, all the CS allied anyway) a MoV gets you 4000 gold and SS parts are under 2K. (Buying SS parts also requires Freedom.) The only “hard” part was working in Apollo between info-era Wonders and archaeologists...

 

[Athenaeum]

FWIW, I just finished up my easiest SV Deity game ever with Venice. I also came close to CV without trying, and had to avoid the Diplo win. I can only conclude that Tradition >> Liberty for Venice, and wish I had known that for my early first tries with them! This was on Archipelago (which tends to be easy mode anyway), because when I tried Pangaea I was ice-locked from using cargo ships. Venice is still about my least favorite civ to play because having zero control over expos just kills the fun for me. Until these couple of games, I also didn't appreciate how dependent on RNG Venice is for starting dirt. Sure, a good initial coastal is guaranteed, but that is not half of what Venice needs to be competitive.

I don't think Venice needs Patronage. Freedom for the CS influence via trade routes would also seem to be a prerequisite for any Venice VC. That tenet is strong for any game, but with all the extra trade routes, Venice cannot afford to pass on it! But even if SV and Diplo wins are smooth, Venice is just too constrained for my tastes. For Deity Venice, Tradition is really the only viable opening tree, and Freedom the only viable Ideology.

Late game (after Commerce completed, all the CS allied anyway) a MoV gets you 4000 gold and SS parts are under 2K. (Buying SS parts also requires Freedom.) The only “hard” part was working in Apollo between info-era Wonders and archaeologists...

1) What is RNG?

2) What did you use your Free MoV on that you got from Optics? Did you buy a CS or do a trade mission?

3) How else did you get MoV's? With Venice, you get 2 MoV's from Liberty and I feel that's hard to pass up.

 

[beetle]

1. Random Number Generator
2. Until I got the 2xGold policy from Commerce, all MoV were used to buy out CS. I agree that ally CS is better than a puppet CS, but it seems like a waste not to use the UA, so I could not really pass on that.
3. Liberty for the two free MoVs is how I played Venice a year ago. They are not worth giving up Tradition for! Each puppet CS means one more MoV, so it is a good snowball, but still Tradition > Liberty for Venice. (EDIT: Are the Liberty “free” MoV really free -- or just sooner than later? I bet they increment the GP counter.) I would encourage you to try the same map both ways. Until this thread, I did not believe it myself. In addition to a MoV from each early puppet, I spawned a couple in Venice and faith-purchased two for the end-game. I also faith-purchased 2 GE and a GS. (I did not found, but ended up with several faith buildings.)

 

[Sessy]

1. it's only worth it to use merchants for trade missions if you need cash to buy/upgrade units for war, or for spaceship parts. buying them out means you get the extra science, culture, faith gold etc. and units in case you want to war people. it also means you can send trade routes to your capital.
2. tradition is always so good. then get commerce, trade is crucial with venice, and get rationalism when it's open. you don't always have to finish rationalism though.
3. great lighthouse is good but colossus is so much better. If you want CS allies, go do quests, or get late game treaty org.

 

[reddishrecue]

I don't know but I am starting to think that Venice is kind of fun because of the whole one city challenge thing that they start out with. Once you get a few great merchants of venices out you can purchase city states all over the map that can further extend your trade routes and eventually your income. As venice, running out of trade route slots is very easy since Venice has double the trade route slots that average civilizations don't have so when you get the recently purchased city state, your chance of opening your trade routes to other civlizations whether they're city states or civilizations are greater than having the same old city states that you purchased in the first place.