The Deity Challenge Line-up #41 - Shoshone

[claudiupb]

I tried and partially failed a CB rush on this map. All the failures added up and in the end it was quite hard because I had missed a window of opportunity.

Spoiler :

My first target was of course the Huns. I managed to get 2 CBs from ruins (also 2 culture ruins, 2 tech ruins -Archery and The Wheel, and an pantheon ruin - culture from pastures). Started with AH because of all the pastures around. Beelined straight for Construction, and started building CBs in all 3 cities (built my own settler after the free one from liberty). The capital had Granary and Water mill, but expos only got monument at first, and started building army. The huns were pretty strong (because I didn't attack them earlier), they had me cornered for a while, I lost some pathfinders, but I managed to finish the job once the first generation of CBs were up. Unfortunately I completely eliminated them (they only had 2 cities) so everyone started hating me. 2 Backstabs (Venice and Byzantium) and a joint Dow (Venice and Russia I think). I used this time to build some infrastructure in my expos so started working on Water Mills and Granaries.

I moved towards Venice while keeping Poland busy in wars (this was a mistake as they were begining to become a runaway). NC was build at about that time (early 90s I think). Venice fell down petty fast, in the meantime I already teched machinery and I slowly upgraded my army (some CB already had logistics and soon got range).
Arabia Dowed my right after I captured Venice , they had a large army but it was outdated. They had a lot of CS allies around so they were pretty annoying. I couln't get them to dow Polinesia to keep them busy and by the time I reached their capital they already had Camel Archers, but I sacrificed some units and the capital fell pretty fast.

With a pretty promoted army, I marched towards Poland and I got 2 cities pretty fast (one had Statue of Zeus but apparently you need honor to make it function). By the time I reached their capital they already had those pesky Winged Hussars, and they slowed me down quite a bit. I reached a stalemate at their capital, each turn I would conquer it and the next they got it back, but I managed to push sacrificing my pikemen and even got another city besides the capital (which had Notre Dame so I kept it). At that point I was already Dowed by Polynesia, Russia and Arabia, and Poland already had riflemen so I sued for peace.

Arabia managed to reconquer their capital, because I had 0 military in that area, but they lost their other city to an ally CS of mine. I marched an army of Muskets combined with XBs and Cannons south to defend Venice, and once that was done I split it to get Arabian capital back, and the rest went towards Polynesia who had GW. The Polynesian capital was pretty easy to get, I sacrificed a Musketman, but the only delay was the Great Wall.

I then waited to tech artillery and rifling before attempting to strike Poland (who now controlled the rest of the 2 Capitals I needed) from two directions. After using Oxford on Dynamite and a bulb for Rifling I upgraded my military (I also had a GM to help) and immediately DoWed Poland. I used the old XBs as sacrifice units as they were dealing little to no damage. I also made sure I had some CS allies around, and that Poland didn't have any dangerous CS allies around my border, so I had to wait to perform a coup on Mombasa before attacking. With about 8-9 artillery units their cities fell pretty fast, got Moscow pretty soon, and I was about to conquer the city right next to Constantinople when they gave me the city in a peace deal (they offered me 3 cities for the peace deal, and I was just messing around with the deal giving the AI my non-Capital cities in exchange for Constantinople, and surprisingly it worked!). This was utterly stupid of the AI because that gave me victory right then, and at first I was tempted to replay the last turns, but in the end I submitted this win time ( I would have probably finished in 7 turns anyway.

I build Machu Piccu later in the game to get more gold, but other than that no wonders. After finishing Liberty (I planted a GS) I opened Commerce with Wagon Trains, then opened Honor for Statue of Zeus. I also invested 2 in rationalism (it was pretty late but I realized I needed more science in order to tech Artillery in time), and in the end I was close to finishing commerce. I also build 2 guilds to hep get policies faster.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

T150 DomV.

CB rushed Attila and Enrico, XB rushed the rest. By t100 I had 3 caps, and then took the rest. Probably would have been faster, but it's 3 am, and Theodora had a very inconvenient capital in the forests with no roads, and Russia built the Great Wall, so at the end I just rammed and lost lots of units, and a CS took a capital, which doesn't really matter, since it doesn't count towards victory somehow.

I haven't played civ in 2 months and I am bad at warmongering, but Shoshone are so OP that it doesn't even matter.

 

[consentient]

Hello my dutch friend

There are two general paths I take when going H-C-A

1. Use Honor left side to rack up a ton of XP. Best done on a weak AI (spoiler:

Spoiler :

there are two to your South)

but if not, a CS will suffice, although on this map type I wouldn't want a CS enemy. Delay Construction as long as possible, and then upgrade after Education. The delayed Construction means your Archers will have a lot of practice, and you will get to the Industrial Era faster, but the XB window will be narrower, since Machinery will be later for you.

2. Use Honor right side to finish the tree quicker and go to Machinery before Education and start warring when you finish the tree to earn enough money to buy the Universities. This is trickier to time, but there are suitable enemies.

With Honor, diplo is more complicated than with Liberty. You'll want to hang onto trading partners you've earned by not going to war T45.

 

[vanatteveldt]

I have yet to score a deity domV, so wish me luck .

Delaying construction is so you can build cheap archers to upgrade to XB, right?
I think the cost per archer would be 80 + 100, with 33% discount 55 and 70 = 125 per archer.
How many archers would you aim for to upgrade? I guess more than 10 would be quite difficult to pull off, since income will be low with so many units. I guess having AI friends to loan from will be very important?

 

[beetle]

Great to see all there early Dom VC! I think I might even get there...

T61 lost cap. Was trying to build the ’mids. Should have be building archers. But I am not sure that will save me...

Nope. Reloading I had three CBs in cap, but it was not enough. What did save me: reloading the turn before and denouncing. Why does that work? Western neighbor totally distracted for 50+ turns!

Shortly after that though, the eastern neighbor hit me. I saw the AI forming up, but there was nothing much I could do, even with shenanigans. I lost my first expo which was razed, but enemy losses were very heavy. I resettled the exact same spot four turns latter and took the AI cap by about ~T110. XBs online three turns later and I will soon dow NW neighbor who was such the problem for me on my first try. I will start with the cap south that AI focused on after my ~T60 denouncement. Should I recall that AI to life? NW neighbor put down an early expo between me and this cap south. The location is good, but with the Shoshone UA, I think I will raze and resettle.

I think I actually have all the units I think I need in the short term (7 XBs, 4 horsemen, 2 cats), so I will finally start on guilds and libraries and NC...

Couple quirks:

• Settling on exactly the same spot where my city was razed, close to cap of eastern neighbor. Few turns later, I get the pop-up about keeping promise not to settle near AI!
• Sacrificing wounded CB to capture GPr from eastern neighbor who has not founded. (Was GPr from a GS?) No spreads possible, but icon pop-up suggesting planting. So I move it to cap to found. I already had a pantheon (festivals), but I am prompted to pick a new one! Monastery was available as building, so that more than makes up for losing festivals, and I picked up faith healers as the pantheon. That should help!

CB rushed [northwest] and [south], XB rushed the rest.

Please use don't name AI or enemy cities in plain text.

I have yet to score a deity domV, so wish me luck

Good luck! Map is tight on space, so I think it is Dom or nothing.

Delaying construction is so you can build cheap archers to upgrade to XB, right?

I went straight to construction so I could start hard building them ASAP. I never have the money to upgrade more than a few archers. I opened Liberty, not Honor, and I don't think there is much time for barb farming. The other thing is that Pathfinder can upgrade to CB, which I did with one. He found three ruins, my other two got zero!

 

[consentient]

I have yet to score a deity domV, so wish me luck .

Delaying construction is so you can build cheap archers to upgrade to XB, right?
I think the cost per archer would be 80 + 100, with 33% discount 55 and 70 = 125 per archer.
How many archers would you aim for to upgrade? I guess more than 10 would be quite difficult to pull off, since income will be low with so many units. I guess having AI friends to loan from will be very important?

Your archers will be cheap, super-promoted, and since you won't be on a major killing spree, you'll be able to trade with the other AIs, assuming your Diplo is good enough.

I'd go for a minimum of 8 archers, but really more is better. Although your GPT will be a little bit lower, they can earn money too - pillaging, clearing barb camps, Honor kills, etc.

 

[stormtrooper412]

yeah, Shoshone early game is absolutely ridiculous

 

[Prime Meridian]

Anybody have any tips on managing the diplomacy on this map?

After getting quadrupled DOW'd after killing my NW neighbor on my first attempt, I had to reload and was able to keep everybody from denouncing after that first war by bribing some wars, then I took

Spoiler :

Warsaw

around turn 100 after getting machinery around turn 94. The owner of that city was at war with his two closest neighbors, so I took peace after getting the capitol and I'm now going to try to get the neighbors to the south and south west ASAP. But I'm worried as soon as I do that I'm doing to get DOW'd by the rest of the world.

Anything to do about it at this point? I'm used to doing my domination on continents which are harder in a way because of the ocean but also much easier to manage diplomatically....

 

[claudiupb]

Judging from what I read I failed in major areas in early and middle game. The first mistake was rushing Construction fast and not having enough archers to upgrade, I was stuck with building expensive CBs because I only had one archer to upgrade. On the other hand I had spent money on useless buildings like Aqueduct in capital and a Library in expo. I think if I had just skipped philosophy and beelined straight to machinery I would have had a lot more military (because no hammers wasted on libraries and NC), and I would have probably reached Machinery at about the same time. If the rush had succeed I wouldn't require any other techs, Machinery and Steel would have been enough.

Another crucial mistake was not annexing the conquered cities, they would have certainly helped get more units to participate in 2 wars at the same time.

Even though T219 is probably not that bad, it could have definitely been improved by a lot if I hadn't missed the window of opportunity against certain civs. I think I will try another CB rush on a different DCL map. I think either the Celts or Persia, I played an early game with both and they had decent lands. I like the UU for both of them.

 

[budweiser]

I think you can beat the triple DoW. In my game, my comp bows shot down both southern aggressors during the crisis. The problem was the eastern aggressor came at my virtually defenseless cap with a carpet. If I had any defense at all, my war bands would have come back north and shot him down too. I had like 4 generals and a couple citadels with spears/pikes should have held. No walls either because I am bad.

 

[beetle]

The owner of that city was at war with his two closest neighbors, so I took peace after getting the capitol and I'm now going to try to get the neighbors to the south and south west ASAP.

With luck, and what I think will happen with my game, the Eastern neighbor will be eliminated. Recalling him to life should help tremendously with Diplo. I have the option of the same trick for the southern neighbor. Then kill the southwest neighbor, leaving the recalled southern neighbor for very last.

As it happened, I left the neighbor NW for second in queue. So I can take two or three of his cities, and still leave him alive, and me without much warmonger hate.

Unlike claudiupb, I will be happy to get Dom VC at all, and I don't care if it is particularly fast.

 

[consentient]

"Anybody have any tips on managing the diplomacy on this map?"

Early on I paid the NW neighbour to DoW the SE neighbour (It was the only one he was interested in attacking. Sadly he moved no troops that way so it was actually quite slow taking his cities). A few turns before I DoW'ed I paid him to attack EVERYONE, and went to -16 happiness for a couple of turns while I moved troops into position. THEN I DoW'ed. No one is going to hate you for taking out a guy who DoW'ed them and they are currently at war with.

Once you've taken 3 capitals on this map, as with many Pangaea maps, diplo no longer matters. Just move and crush. Speed is of the essence.

Update: T132 Domination

OK that's by far my fastest on the DCL. If you can get to Machinery and then Chivalry PDQ on this map then the land is yours!

 

[Blatc]

I'm surprised no one has brought up strategy regarding ancient ruin choices, as I find that very interesting. I've tried out the early game a few times (comparing 1-city Tradition, 1-city Honour very early war, and 2-city Liberty), and have consistently prioritized unit upgrades and culture. However, I'm unsure on tech vs. population (ideally selecting just after you've finished a tech or grown) and whether going into faith is worthwhile (T20 on you can select faith, including 2 in a row if you don't have a pantheon yet).

 

[budweiser]

I'm surprised no one has brought up strategy regarding ancient ruin choices, as I find that very interesting. I've tried out the early game a few times (comparing 1-city Tradition, 1-city Honour very early war, and 2-city Liberty), and have consistently prioritized unit upgrades and culture. However, I'm unsure on tech vs. population (ideally selecting just after you've finished a tech or grown) and whether going into faith is worthwhile (T20 on you can select faith, including 2 in a row if you don't have a pantheon yet).

Population first allows a quick change to settler production. Settle on luxury.

 

[Blatc]

Population first allows a quick change to settler production. Settle on luxury.

With Shoshone, on a map that I know has many ruins (having played Great Plains before, but not the 'plus' version), I have to think getting a 2nd Pathfinder out is more important as your first build.

It may be a play-style preference, but I'm giving Pathfinder-Comp Bows higher priority and have to admit I was hoping for an OP map with my favourite DomV wonder nearby (Mt. Kil).

 

[consentient]

Good question blatc. I prioritised pop and when possible, a pantheon.

I had a decent number of pop ruins, and got a pantheon from another, giving me Sun God, which made the wheat very quickly OP. The capital then grew and was quickly able to pump out Archers in 2 turns. So many of my archers were built much later and I could concentrate on other things.

My BO was: Pathfinder x3 (small map but potential to get 3 very easy CBs, which I did), Granary.
In the right circumstances, a Shoshone start has more snowball potential than any other civ. You don't need to build a shrine to get a pantheon, you don't need to build a monument early, you don't need to buy tiles. On this map especially there are a lot of strategic and bonus resources. The early production plus insane food means you can tech REALLY quickly to Construction. I delayed it so I could build as many archers as poss, but it's available really early on this map. You could easily take a capital with 3 CBs and a Spear ca. T40, that's one option (but this would have reduced scouting).

 

[adcarrymaokai]

People who get triple DOW are probably not abusing the stupidity of the AI. You need to pit them against each other really early. You can sell all your gpt and luxuries to your first victim in exchange for a DOW on multiple other AI's, and then get everything back anyway. If happiness allows, you can sell luxuries a few turns earlier, so that they move and hopefully lose their units, while you jump on the Denounce train. If they succeed and take a city or eliminate a civ -- all the better. That is one less big civ you have to fight, and they will be hated by the whole world anyway. The only risk is that you can create a monster, but then.. what were doing when their armies were away?

In this game I was friends with everyone even after eliminating once civ (had to). I generally don't eliminate AI's because many of them won't come back from a city or two left. You only have to watch out for the folks like Dido or Shaka, but mostly Dido because if you don't kill her with fire, she will find spots to expand, build an army, and WILL come and bite you in the ass later.

For diplomacy send caravans, trade, and fight against common enemies/denounce. Everyone loved me in this game until I DoW'ed them.

And yes, the Shoshone UA alone is so gamebreakingly OP: I got 6 (!) tiles for the cap, covering all luxuries and wheat. It not only saves money but helps you make more by quickly improving those luxuries. And did I mention the nifty 15% combat bonus in your lands? It's a nice little touch to your citadel-bombing.

 

[budweiser]

People who get triple DOW are probably not abusing the stupidity of the AI.

Yup. I used brute force all the way and went wide. Looks like tall would have been better.

 

[Prime Meridian]

T208 DomV

My win was so much slower than some of the other posters in this thread but was a new best time for Deity Dom for me and my first DCL attempt and win. I feel like a learned a lot about deity dom from this map and there's still so much more to learn.

Spoiler :

I won on my second attempt after having to restart after getting quadruple DoW'd after taking out Attilla the first time. On my second attempt I used the same strategy, 3 city liberty CB rush Attilla, but I worked the diplo better with paid DoWs etc.

Warsaw was both my 2nd capitol and last capitol as I took it early but then he took it back later while I was busy fighting Arabia and Polynesia. I took out Venice after Warsaw then went on to Arabia. Polynesia DoW'd me while I was fighting Arabia but I was able to finish them off and then turn my attention to Polynesia, but I had to give Warsaw up at this point.

After taking Honolulu I paused briefly for about 5 turns to bulb and oxford for dynamite (got it on turn 174 I think), upgraded a handful of cannons and declared on Russia. Moscow fell almost instantly but I had to push up through a couple more cities to get a border with Byzantium. Once I did that I declared on Poland and Byzantium at the same time and attacked Poland from both sides while grabbing Constantinople. Poland actually put up much more a fight than I was expecting due to a swarm of winged hussars and their crazy mobility on this map and bonuses vs my mounted comanches, but warsaw fell and I got the win on turn 208. Nothing special for most of you but I'm very happy with my first DCL win

 

[Grendeldef]

Just a bump as I added few pics in #17.