[Religion and Revolution]: Feedback and Questions

[Nightinggale]

If you didn't keep the files, you should be able to find them in the RaRE git repository. The git log should tell precisely which files you are after. There is also an issue regarding routes as trains would have to have to drive on railroad tracks.

Since we are on the topic of trains and editing xml, the DLL has odd code for detecting the train. If a unit is a land unit and it has 6 cargo slots, it can only move on plots with route of type 2 (railroad). It works and it is fast, but it poses a danger to xml modders if they are unaware of this.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

After installing R&R I immediately tried a game on the "RAR Americas gigantic" map as the danish.

Starting in the northeastern-most startingposition (just south of Iceland, two tiles away from the right border of the map) it took me until 1501 before the ship reached the New England area despite the danish +1 to shipspeed only to find everyone else already arrived.

Starting the same map as danish again I started in the same position and using CTRL-W to uncover the fog I saw that every other nation starts closer to the coast of the american mainland and would only need 1 or 2 turns to discover land.

Is that intended (as in the danish should colonize Iceland) or is the danish starting postion too far east?


And a question about speed of units: When the maps are larger, e.g. huge or gigantic is then the speed of units increased too, for the longer distances to travel compared to smaller maps? Or do larger maps (especially the gigantic ones) only mean that less can be achieved in the limited time due to the vast distances?

 

[raystuttgart]

There are maps with fixed starting locations for all Players.
(Especially important if you want to have historical and geographical authenticity.)

But there are also maps with random (changing) starting locations as well.
(But then, almost everyting is randomized. Including Positions of Native Villages.)

RaR Americas Gigantic does have both, a "fixed" and a "random" version.
SImply choose the one you want to play.

RaR Americas Gigantic is one of Marla's Maps.
(She was one of our main map makers and rhe really liked to take care of geographical and historical authenticity.)

So yes, the starting locations you find in the "fixed" version are intended.
(They are maybe not perfectly balanced but they are authentical.)

When the maps are larger, e.g. huge or gigantic is then the speed of units increased too.

No, definitely not.

Or do larger maps (especially the gigantic ones) only mean that less can be achieved in the limited time due to the vast distances?

Very strange way of seeing things.

It is rather:
The bigger the maps, the more you can explore, the more Native tribes you will encounter, the more space you have for colonies, the more treasures you find, the longer it takes before Europeans start clashing, the longer ....

Bigger Maps give you more possibilities and allow much bigger empires. It is definitely not about "less being achivable" ...
(And yes, they are also a bit more challenging than smaller maps.)

"Gigantic" is for sure the favourit map size of our "veteran" players and long time fans.
It was introduced (and technically made possible due to several performance tweaks) because almost the complete Modding Community was complaining about maps being too small in Vanilla.

But of course, if you prefer short games with smaller empires, smaller maps might be better for you.
(Simply choose whatever you prefer.)

And by the way:
RaR does allow endless games.
(Simply a matter of setting the victory conditions the correct way.)

 

[ConjurerDragon]

There are maps with fixed starting locations for all Players.
(Especially important if you want to have historical and geographical authenticity.)

But there are also maps with random (changing) starting locations as well.
(But then, almost everyting is randomized. Including Positions of Native Villages.)

RaR Americas Gigantic does have both, a "fixed" and a "random" version.
SImply choose the one you want to play.

I have seen the RAR Americas gigantic random map in the scenario selection, but I do like maps that try to be close to historical geography and location of natives.
So an all-random map is nothing for me, I just wished the starting positions were not fixed but semi-random (e.g. danish could start near Iceland, but had a chance to start near the carribean too - after all the historical danish westindies were in the carribean).

RaR Americas Gigantic is one of Marla's Maps.
(She was one of our main map makers.)

She really liked to take care of authenticity.
(Geographically and historically.)

So yes, the starting locations you find in the "fixed" version are defintiely intended.


Very strange way of seeing things.

It is rather:
The bigger the maps, the more you can explore, the more space you have for settling, the more treasures you find, the longer it takes before Europeans start clashing, the longer ....
Bigger Maps give you more possibilities and allow much bigger empires. It is definitely not about "less being achivable" ...

Almost all RaR player love the new Map size "Gigantic".
(Because it allows longer games and bigger empires.)

It was introduced (and technically made possible due to several performance tweaks) because
almost the complete Modding Community was complaining about maps being too small in Vanilla.

And by the way:
RaR does allow endless games.
(Simply a matter of setting the victory conditions the correct way.)

You misunderstand me. I *do* like the larger maps. To explore a "gigantic" map is fun and establishing the first colony with a huge expanse of wilderness around is great.

It just felt strange that my first danish ship needed from 1492 to 1501 to reach the american coast at the New England area, starting in Iceland when Columbus first journey from Spain to Hispaniola took 2 months.

As the number of tiles is increased on the gigantic map compared to a smaller map and as you say the number of tiles a ship can travel stays the same regardless of mapsize, then that means a ship travels less distance per round/year on a gigantic map than on a huge map. The ship effectively becomes slower the larger the map becomes as it´s speed does not scale to mapsize.

 

[raystuttgart]

The ship effectively becomes slower the larger the map becomes as it´s speed does not scale to mapsize.

Well, that is part of the "additional challenge" of most "Gigantic" maps.
But for most veteran players that "additional challenge" is a good thing.

And last but not least it also very heavily depends on the map design.
And that again reassembles the personal taste of the map creator.

The maps myself (or other map makers) have created are designed very differently from Marla's Maps.
(My maps are not historically or geographically authentic though. I considered game play and balancing to be more important.)

If you for example try "Two Continents" (which is not "authentical") you will get a totally different game feeling.
(Distance between land and open seas is smaller. Map is very balanced.)

I my personal opinion, "Gigantic" is the map size we have designed RaR for (e.g. with 2-Plot-City-Radius and the huge amount of Native Nations).
(RaR was designed by Civ4Col veterans for Civ4Col veterans. )

Well, I can only tell you how it is.
A lot of RaR is our personal taste of course.

You have lots of maps to choose from.
(Size, Random or Fixed, Balanced or Authentical.)

And of course you could even play Map Scripts.
(But of course they would not create "authentical" maps either.)

Simply choose the one you like best.
And I really do hope that you will find maps (or settings) that fit your own personal taste.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
If you for example try "Two Continents" (which is not "authentical") you will get a totally different game feeling.
(Distance between land and open seas is smaller. Map is very balanced.)

I browsed through the maps in the "Play Scenario" screen and only two of them "Amerayca" and "Two_Continents" have the remark "optimized for RAR" in their description while a lot have RAR in their names.
In what way are those two optimized in which the other RAR maps are not?

 

[Marla_Singer]

I have seen the RAR Americas gigantic random map in the scenario selection, but I do like maps that try to be close to historical geography and location of natives.
So an all-random map is nothing for me, I just wished the starting positions were not fixed but semi-random (e.g. danish could start near Iceland, but had a chance to start near the carribean too - after all the historical danish westindies were in the carribean).

I've tried this but it's unfortunately impossible. Either all civilizations are random, or all civilizations are fixed. If I want the native Americans to appear at their historical locations, then the starting locations of Europeans have to be fixed as well.

However, it's rather easy to edit that.

• Go in the Maps folder of your "Religion and Revolution" copy, and open the file "RAR Americas Gigantic" with the notepad.
• Around the line #500, you'll see the entries "BeginPlayer" and "EndPlayer". It's there that all players are configured.
• Starting locations are defined with StartingX and StartingY. The easiest way to make the Danes start in the place you want is by swapping them with the civ starting there (for instance the English, the Swedes or the French).
• Please be sure to do so for "kings" civilizations as well (players #39 to #46 IIRC). Otherwise at the war of independence, your king will arrive in Iceland.

Quick note: if you want to play the map, be sure to set up your game in "Normal" speed. By default it's on marathon which is a mistake. Games in "Normal" speed are long enough, marathon only makes them more tedious without bringing any additional value. It's funnier in normal.

It just felt strange that my first danish ship needed from 1492 to 1501 to reach the american coast at the New England area, starting in Iceland when Columbus first journey from Spain to Hispaniola took 2 months.

As the number of tiles is increased on the gigantic map compared to a smaller map and as you say the number of tiles a ship can travel stays the same regardless of mapsize, then that means a ship travels less distance per round/year on a gigantic map than on a huge map. The ship effectively becomes slower the larger the map becomes as it´s speed does not scale to mapsize.

I've been thinking about that too. As a matter of fact, by the end of the game when we have large convoys on paved road with waystations, land units become faster than sea units.

Because of that reason, and also to make the Carribean regions funnier, I've thought about testing the game after doubling the speed of all boats. The issue then is that they all move to Europe in 1 single turn which kills the piracy aspect of the game. So for this to work out, we would need to push the tiles to reach Europe further from the shores. It's all only XML/WorldBuider editing so it could be tested. But no matter what, the faster will be the boats, the harder it will be for pirats to catch them.

Now that I think about it, an idea may be to double boats sea vision as well in order to balance that.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I browsed through the maps in the "Play Scenario" screen and only two of them "Amerayca" and "Two_Continents" have the remark "optimized for RAR" in their description while a lot have RAR in their names.
In what way are those two optimized in which the other RAR maps are not?

The maps of the Americas I've created "RAR Americas Gigantic" and "RAR Americas Huge" are fully optimized for RAR. We can find all RAR ressources at their real life locations: coffee in Colombia, Gold in Yukon and so on.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
Quick note: if you want to play the map, be sure to set up your game in "Normal" speed. By default it's on marathon which is a mistake. Games in "Normal" speed are long enough, marathon only makes them more tedious without bringing any additional value. It's funnier in normal.

Is that this setting in the maps file?

Version=11
BeginGame
	Era=ERA_DISCOVERY
	Speed=GAMESPEED_TAC_MARATHON

Does the line need to have a value (e.g. normal) or will simply deleting that line mean that the map asks what gamespeed I want to play at?

Edit: Is it normal for gigantic maps that the globe view (F11) only displays cities surrounded by a mass of black clouds that hide everything else?

 

[Marla_Singer]

Is that this setting in the maps file?

Version=11
BeginGame
	Era=ERA_DISCOVERY
	Speed=GAMESPEED_TAC_MARATHON

Does the line need to have a value (e.g. normal) or will simply deleting that line mean that the map asks what gamespeed I want to play at?

That parameter in the code determines the default speed for the map. In-game, when we load the map, that means "marathon" is the pre-selected speed, but it can be changed then as well.

If in the code you write "GAMESPEED_TAC_NORMAL", then the default speed will be normal (i.e. pre-selected option).

Edit: Is it normal for gigantic maps that the globe view (F11) only displays cities surrounded by a mass of black clouds that hide everything else?

That's unfortunately a well-known bug which appears on all RAR gigantic maps. Many experimented modders have tried to find a solution but as I remember they couldn't find any because it's deeply hard-coded.

If you have a good computer, then a solution is to change the level of zoom at which the view is changed. That's what I've done and thanks to this I can zoom out really far before it turns black. I'm not at home now so I can't tell you exactly where this must be changed, but it's also a simple text edit.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

When I start Colonization using the original desktop icon and select "Play a scenario" it lists not only the vanilla game maps, but those from TAC and R&R too, however without their description which is reduced to some textstringsymbols.

I unzipped R&R in Colonizations mod folder under the MyGames folder. Did I do the install somehow wrong?
Or is it normal that the vanilla game is able to see maps that are only in a mods maps folder, but not their text description?

 

[Marla_Singer]

When I start Colonization using the original desktop icon and select "Play a scenario" it lists not only the vanilla game maps, but those from TAC and R&R too, however without their description which is reduced to some textstringsymbols.

I unzipped R&R in Colonizations mod folder under the MyGames folder. Did I do the install somehow wrong?
Or is it normal that the vanilla game is able to see maps that are only in a mods maps folder, but not their text description?

I hadn't noticed that before but you're right. Apparently we don't need to load the mod to find its maps in the game.

It's not a problem, however RAR maps will crash if loaded in Vanilla game because they incorporate elements (ressources, terrains, civilizations) which don't exist there.

The text strings are actually used for translation purpose. They are defined within the RAR mod with German, French and English versions. If the mod isn't loaded, they aren't found, so vanilla game shows the code strings instead.

I would advise you to create a shortcut on your desktop to load directly RAR. It's more convenient, I don't remember exactly how it's done.

 

[Nightinggale]

I would advise you to create a shortcut on your desktop to load directly RAR. It's more convenient, I don't remember exactly how it's done.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=553279
Posts #7 and #8.

 

[Marla_Singer]

If you have a good computer, then a solution is to change the level of zoom at which the view is changed. That's what I've done and thanks to this I can zoom out really far before it turns black. I'm not at home now so I can't tell you exactly where this must be changed, but it's also a simple text edit.

I've found the parameter to edit in order to do this.

It's located in that file: Religion_and_Revolution\Assets\XML\Misc\CIV4DetailManager.xml

In the beginning of the document on notepad, you'll find these lines:

	<Fader>
		<Name>DF_SKY</Name>
		<Key>6000, 0.00</Key>
		<Key>6400, 1.0</Key>
		<Key>%CAMERA_MAX_DISTANCE, 1.00</Key>
	</Fader>
	<Fader>
		<Name>DF_GLOBE_TERRAIN</Name>
		<Key>6000, 0.00</Key>
		<Key>6400, 1.00</Key>
	</Fader>
	<Fader>
		<Name>DF_GLOBE_MORPH</Name>
		<Key>6400,	0.00</Key>
		<Key>%CAMERA_MAX_DISTANCE*0.97, 1.00</Key>
	</Fader>

If you change all "6000" with "30000" and all "6400" with "30400", you'll be able to zoom out really far in game before the map turns black.

 

[Marla_Singer]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=553279
Posts #7 and #8.

Thanks.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I've found the parameter to edit in order to do this.
...
[/CODE]If you change all "6000" with "30000" and all "6400" with "30400", you'll be able to zoom out really far in game before the map turns black.

I tried it and it works. If zooming too far out it still turns black, but I can at least zoom out to see e.g. Mexico as a whole. Thankyou.

 

[Nightinggale]

Edit: Is it normal for gigantic maps that the globe view (F11) only displays cities surrounded by a mass of black clouds that hide everything else?

Short answer: yes, though it's the plot graphics (terrain, feature etc), not everything, which goes missing. Units, colonies and stuff will still be visible.

Longer technical answer. It would appear that they copied the 3D hardware acceleration approach of counting lines from the bottom, not the top. It would also seem that they for unknown reasons (memory/optimization/laziness?) use a 7 bit address space for plot row. The result is that it can draw terrain on the bottom 128 rows (128 = 2⁷) and the rest will go blank. All this takes place inside the exe file itself and is unreachable for modders. There isn't really anything we can do about it other than what is already mentioned here. Naturally limiting maps to 128 rows is also an option, but that defeats the purpose of the really big maps.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

In my current game I feel like Captain Ahab - every Whale out there tries to kill my ships...

Regarding wild animals:
Is there a way to remove the diplomatical option to demand that Natives or Colonial Powers make peace with "Wild Animals"? While it might give someone a feeling of Greenpeace in the 15th century I find it strange to demand from e.g. the Dutch to stop fighting animals...

Is there a way to change the reward for killing an animal? Currently it seems I get a random amount of gold e.g. for killing a wolf or whale. Would it be possible to get e.g. fur or whalefat added to the ship (if it has free storage) or to the next city (like when forest is chopped down the next city gets the lumber)?

 

[Nightinggale]

Is there a way to remove the diplomatical option to demand that Natives or Colonial Powers make peace with "Wild Animals"?

Huh? That sure sounds like a bug. I will look into it when I get time to do so.

Is there a way to change the reward for killing an animal? Currently it seems I get a random amount of gold e.g. for killing a wolf or whale. Would it be possible to get e.g. fur or whalefat added to the ship (if it has free storage) or to the next city (like when forest is chopped down the next city gets the lumber)?

M:C can do that, but I don't think RaR(E) can without modifying the DLL.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Regarding wild animals:
Is there a way to remove the diplomatical option to demand that Natives or Colonial Powers make peace with "Wild Animals"?

Wild animals aren't supposed to appear in your diplomatic options.

If you've modified the scenario in WorldBuilder, be sure to keep #47 and #48 as follows:

BeginPlayer
	Team=47
	LeaderType=NONE
	CivType=NONE
EndPlayer
BeginPlayer
	Team=48
	LeaderType=NONE
	CivType=NONE
EndPlayer

Those are for wild animals and the church. We should let those players be generated automatically by RAR.

Sea animals are a big threat early in the game but the more you'll advance in the game and the further away they'll be. However, privateers will arrive afterwards as a new threat. It's important to protect your sea routes with military ships. The best is to keep military ships around ready to intervene in case a merchant ship is in danger.