RFC Classical World

[srpt]

I've written a more comprehensive set of rules for how the AI will benefit from slavery. when the AI would have captured a slave these checks are made, in this order:

1. if the AI is building a wonder, gain a slave's worth of production towards that wonder
2.if the AI is in financial trouble it gets a sold slave's rough value of gold
3. if any of the AIs cities have a current food surplus of 6 or more, it will get a settled slave in whichever city has the biggest food surplus
4. if any of the AIs cities need a worker, it gets a slave unit with regular worker ai at that city
5. if none of the above, the AI gets gold again

I've tested it. each of the conditions works. they seem balanced to me. I'll put the changes up soon.

 

[Ogi123]

Could you update main download with this changes?
EDIT: since I lately have some free time, there are my thoughts about civics, as always you are free to use or disregard it.

-first civics i.e. despotism, decentralization etc. - should be bring in line either all of them are no upkeep no effects or all of them are low upkeep and some small positive effect.
1) government
-monarchy - is okay as it is. I only eliminated maintenance penalty, large empires will use something else anyway so not much sense in it.
-oligarchy - surprisingly good for medium/large nations +1 free specialist is more powerful the more cities you have. You could try some specialist bonus here so player will have incentive to grow cities large.
-empire - ok as it is, I experimented in bringing it to SoI specs, so -40% distance and number maintenance, but then it tend to overshadow all other choices here.
-theocracy - meh, only Arabs start with this and its uninspired civic.

2) legal
-Tyranny - to weak in beginning because of +1 global unhappy. To strong in later portions of the game because there isn't any upper limit on happiness/units. My solution is to remove global unhappy, but limit max number of happiness from units to 4-6, this is DoC solution.
- vassalage - extremely powerful, +2xp is ok, but free units scaling with empire size means that large empires often have 70+ free units. Witch blows other civics in this category out of water. Solution -free units are fixed number like in monarchy, upkeep lowered to low.
-religious law - +25% GPP for +1unhappy per non state religion for medium upkeep? No thanks thats often +2-3 unhappy faces for minor boost in late game. GPP gain must be increased to +75% or even +100%.
- bureaucracy - stability bonus is good, -50% distance maintenance mod not so much because number of cities maintenance is always bigger problem. I changed it to no city distance maintenance.

3) labour
-slavery - super powerful, my suggestion is high upkeep and perhaps lowering rush buy to 40 -50 hammers. I removed +1 global unhappy because I dislike penalties from civics. There should be only opportunity cost in choosing civics.
-caste system - actually pretty ok if you don't have lot of barbs. For clarity sake I removed +2xp for units and added doubled slots for merchant and artist. Works really good like that. Perhaps simply doubling all specialist slots?
-serfdom - effect is ok from gameplay perspective but it clashes with name, serfdom is not slavery... And it's pretty late in tech tree.
-wage labour - why I would use it? Worker bonus is negligible, high upkeep... I admit gold rushing is ok, but to late and it losses to any other civic in this column. No idea how to fix that. I got some mileage out of this with removing worker speed bonus and changing upkeep to low. I thought about adding 2 free specialist per city like in RFC Europe, but then it will be to close to oligarchy in effect.

4) economy
-agrarianism - well +1food was way to OP, +1commerce after play-test soundly beaten trade economy, so I finally settled on +10% food in all cities +1 health from granary and low upkeep. Work ok like this, and it not boost best improvement in game -farm. I simply don't like improvements yields increases, my preference is something more universal.
-trade economy - perfectly fine the way it is.
-patronage - probably weakest off all civics in game. Not only culture is of little importance compared to other yields, but its is only 25% in capital, utterly meaningless. Doubled artist is ok but it is weakest of specialist so nothing special. I changed culture bonus to 100%... and still don't used it. Honestly this civic should get removed and replaced by something else. Guilds perhaps?
-military economy - fine at it is, I only removed +1 global unhappy.

5)religion
-dynastic cult -mostly ok, I tested two changes one was increasing capital commerce to +50%. Other lowering upkeep to low and commerce to +25%, both worked fine.
-state religion - no changes needed.
-militancy - as above.
-religious freedom - OK, perhaps rename to tolerance and allow state religion?

 

[Ogi123]

Quick question does tradesman and artisan specialist are still in game?

 

[srpt]

no. I can't remember if they are fully out but they are going. I thought it was just a bit cluttered. why?

 

[Ogi123]

Well they are still at city screen, and I wondered if I'm missing some tech or civic to activate them. Well I will remove them from display then to reduce clutter.

 

[Tigranes]

Tibet could use the same Dawn of Men text as DoC's Tibet...

There is also this strange thing about Tang -- I had an open borders with them but crossing into their land still resulted in a war

 

[AtlantaMarty]

about Gedrosia, yes you could put a city there. camels and salt would be unique to the area. there is a city called Pura which is always shown on the maps of Alexander's empire but I've never been able to find any info on it. its Poura on our city name map. I just WBed a city there and it was stagnant at 3 working a plains sheep, camels and salt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bampur

This is possibly the modern-day Pura.

 

[srpt]

Tibet could use the same Dawn of Men text as DoC's Tibet...

yes that's a good idea, maybe Srivijaya too if it's appropriate

There is also this strange thing about Tang -- I had an open borders with them but crossing into their land still resulted in a war

military units can't cross borders unless you are in a common war. I should make a hint about that.

sorry about the slow progress. I am still struggling with the tech tree. hopefully I get it right soon.

 

[Ogi123]

yes that's a good idea, maybe Srivijaya too if it's appropriate



military units can't cross borders unless you are in a common war. I should make a hint about that.

sorry about the slow progress. I am still struggling with the tech tree. hopefully I get it right soon.

Mechanically or conceptually?

 

[srpt]

conceptually. I am trying to link things up so the tree is longer. progress is happening.

 

[Ogi123]

conceptually. I am trying to link things up so the tree is longer. progress is happening.

Besides new tech tree and revised unit rooster are you planning other changes? Improvements, civics , yields, buildings etc?

 

[Exorro]

Very glad to see some activity here once again!

For some reason though, playing as Kalinka is not possible at the moment for me because clicking on them makes the game crash. Interacting with Kalinka also makes the game crash.

 

[srpt]

I wonder what is up with that leaderhead (Kalinka)? it doesn't crash my game. for now open leaderheadinfos.xml, find Kharavela and change ART_DEF_LEADER_BHOJA to ART_DEF_LEADER_GANDHI

the tech tree is finished

unit roster looks like this (all numbers subject to adjustment):

Spoiler :

spearman (melee) 4 str, +50% vs mounted, no resource, no tech

axeman (melee) 5 str, copper or iron, warrior code

swordsman (melee) 6 str, +10% city attack, iron, warrior code, steel working

pikeman (melee) 7 str, +50% vs mounted, iron, military drill

chariot (mounted) 5 str, -10% city attack, 10% withdrawal, horse, warrior code

horseman (mounted) 6 str, -10% city attack, 20% withdrawal, horse, horsemanship

archer (missile) 4 str, 1 first strike, +50% city defense, no resource, archery

catapult (siege) 4 str, +50 city attack, siege engines

trebuchet (siege) 4 str, +100% city attack

elephant (elephant) 9 str, +25% vs mounted, elephants, horsemanship

armored spearman (melee) 8 str, +25% vs mounted, iron, scale armor

armored swordsman (melee) 10 str, +10% city attack, iron, scale armor

javelinman (missile) 4 str, 20% withdrawal, +50% vs melee, +100% vs elephants, no resource, infantry tactics

horse archer (missile cavalry) 6 str, -10% city attack, 1 first strike, 30% withdrawal, horse, horse archery

lancer (mounted) 12 str, -10% city attack, horse and iron, selective breeding, scale armor

heavy infantry (melee) 14 str, +10% city attack, iron, chainmail

armored elephant (elephant) 14 str, +25% vs mounted, elephants, iron, horsemanship, scale armor

marksman (missile) 7 str, 1 first strike, +50% city defense, copper or iron, marksmanship, scale armor

heavy horse archer (missile cavalry) 7 str, -10% city attack, 1 first strike, 30% withdrawal, horse, iron, horse archery, marksmanship, the stirrup

crossbowman (missile) 9 str, 1 first strike, +50% city defense, +25% vs melee, machinery

heavy lancer (mounted) 16 str, -10% city attack, horse and iron, the stirrup, chainmail

civics (4 choices/category):

Spoiler :

govt:
federation, low upkeep
monarchy +3 happy in 3 largest cities, +5free units, med upkeep
oligarchy +50% GPP, +50% GGP, med upkeep
empire -50% maintenance from number of cities, high upkeep

legal:
custom, low upkeep
tyranny, +1 happy/military unit, medium upkeep
vassalage, +2xp, 5 free units, +1 free unit/5 pop, med upkeep
bureaucracy, +1 coin/specialist, +50% commerce and production in capital, high upkeep

labor:
levy, low upkeep
slavery, slaves, med upkeep
caste system, +2xp priests x2, med upkeep
serfdom, sacrifice population, med upkeep

economy:
decentralization, low upkeep
agrarianism, +1 coin from farm, orchard, med upkeep
mercantilism, +1 trade route/city, +50% trade route yield, merchants x2, med upkeep
patronage, +50% culture in all cities, artist x2, med upkeep

religion:
paganism, low upkeep
state religion, +25% building construction w state religion, missionaries, med upkeep
syncretism, +1 happy w state religion, +1 happy w other religion, +15% research, med upkeep
militancy, +2xp w state religion, no foreign religion spread, med upkeep

there will be some new buildings as well as changes to existing buildings.

I also have some map changes but those will wait for now

the new tech tree and associated changes should be up by tomorrow I think.

 

[Exorro]

I tried to change Kharavela to Asoka previously and it did not work. Bhoja to Gandhi also did not work. Very weird, everyone else works fine.

I changed both of them to Antigonus and now it works. How bizarre.

 

[Ogi123]

Axeman and swordsman? Won't axe obsolete quickly? Horse archers are terrible in this rooster. Instead of nomadic terror weapon it's basically useless here. Croosbow cannot counter heavy infantry in field, it's pure city def now, is that intentional? Pike is better at anti cav work than armoured spear and makes sword obsolete. Cavalry is basically unstoppable here, it has access to stable, and shock requires CI while formation is after CII/drillII. Overall I think it will be best to organize units into tiers available on roughly same level in tech tree.
Tier 1:
Axe - 5S,2M, 40h +10% city attack
Spear - 4S, 2M, 30h +50% vs cav
Archer -4S, 2M, 40h, +25% city def, 1first strike
Horse - 6S, 3M, 50h, -10% city attack
Javelin 3S, 3M, 30h, +100% vs melee, 20% retreat, 1first strike
War elephant - 7S, 2M, 70h
Catapult - 4S, 1M, 50h, +50% city attack

Tier2:
Sword - 7S, 2M, 60h +10% city attack
Heavy spear - 6S, 2M, 60h +50% vs cav
Lancer - 8S, 3M, 80h -10% city attack
Marksman - 6S, 2M, 60h, +25% city def, 1 first strike
Horse archer - 7S, 4M, 70h, 30% retreat, 1 first strike, -10% city attack
Heavy javelin - 4S, 3M, 50h, 25% retreat, 1first strike, +100% vs melee
Armoured elephant - 9S, 2M, 100h

Tier 3:
Heavy sword -9S, 2M, 90h +10% city attack
Armoured spear - 8S, 2M, 80h +50% vs cav
Heavy lancer - 10S, 3M , 110h, -10% city attack
Heavy horse archer - 9S, 4M, 110h, -10% city attack, 35% retreat, 1 first strike
Crossbow - 8S, 2M, 80h, +25% city def, 1first strike
Heavy catapult - 6S, 1M, 90h, +50% city attack

Chariot can be removed without problem, even at start date of mod it was obsolete an rarely used. Other than that here you have clear progression with counters available at each tier. I'm sorry to say but in yours unit tree I won't build half of those units, after all each unit cost same maintenance and raises cost of all further units so quality is always better.

 

[Ogi123]

About civics, almost all of them are med upkeep, won't moving some to low/high will be able to differentiate them more?
Oligarchy effect is +50% GPP and presumably +50% great general points?
Tyranny does need some limit on how much units can function as police, six perhaps?
Vassalage free units/pop needs to be weakened or this will be to go civic for large empires. Perhaps unit/10pop and low upkeep?
Caste system - I really don't like +2xp for units, too much similarities with vassalage. Does +1 hammer from labourer/citizen disappeared? I would prefer removing xp and bringing it back.
Patronage - unfortunately culture is weak in civ4 so any civic based on it will be weak.
syncretism- whoah, suddenly this becomes very powerful, no religious riots and religious instability additionally is included as effect? Keeping it at +10% resarch, and no unhappy from non state religions with additional low upkeep bonus should be enough. Tolerance sounds better IMHO as name.
militancy - why +2 xp? That's 3 civics that have this effect, perhaps returning to +25% units production would be better?

 

[srpt]

as I said, all numbers are subject to change. this is an outline, not a final draft. I guess I'll try to answer some questions anyway.

"Axeman and swordsman? Won't axe obsolete quickly?" how would you know? you haven't seen the tech tree.

"Croosbow cannot counter heavy infantry in field, it's pure city def now, is that intentional?" yes crossbows are now above marksmen not beside them. not for any particular historical reason but because they come at the end of the tree and this way marksmen don't have to last to the end of the game. the vs melee bonus is now a secondary thing.

"Cavalry is basically unstoppable here, it has access to stable, and shock requires CI while formation is after CII/drillII" as I said numbers will change. promotions will change as well. many will require a tech.

"Pike is better at anti cav work than armoured spear" error, pike should be +25% vs mounted

"and makes sword obsolete." intentional

"Horse archers are terrible in this rooster. Instead of nomadic terror weapon it's basically useless here." error, somehow got skipped when I revised most stats up. should be 8 str. I am also thinking of giving them +50% vs melee, since melee can neither hit them from range nor chase them.

"Overall I think it will be best to organize units into tiers available on roughly same level in tech tree. " I disagree. I find that approach restrictive

"About civics, almost all of them are med upkeep, won't moving some to low/high will be able to differentiate them more?" yes probably some will be high. the first option is each category is low. others may be made low as well. I haven't tested any of them

"Oligarchy effect is +50% GPP and presumably +50% great general points?" yes

"Tyranny does need some limit on how much units can function as police, six perhaps?" yes, but I was thinking lower

"Vassalage free units/pop needs to be weakened or this will be to go civic for large empires. Perhaps unit/10pop and low upkeep?" numbers, they are so subject to change

"Caste system - I really don't like +2xp for units, too much similarities with vassalage. Does +1 hammer from labourer/citizen disappeared? I would prefer removing xp and bringing it back." I've explained this before. in this mod the Caste System civic is about warriors and priests

"Patronage - unfortunately culture is weak in civ4 so any civic based on it will be weak." also explained this before. there is going to be a culture civic

"syncretism- whoah, suddenly this becomes very powerful, no religious riots and religious instability additionally is included as effect? Keeping it at +10% resarch, and no unhappy from non state religions with additional low upkeep bonus should be enough." that thing about numbers and how subject to change they are.

"Tolerance sounds better IMHO as name." maybe. thinking about it.

ok, back to work

 

[srpt]

I tried to change Kharavela to Asoka previously and it did not work. Bhoja to Gandhi also did not work. Very weird, everyone else works fine.

I changed both of them to Antigonus and now it works. How bizarre.

I wish I could reproduce the crash so I could try and find the problem. when I get a chance I will try to ask some more knowledgeable modders about it

I would just remove it but I really like that leaderhead and there is a bit of a shortage of really good Indian leaderheads

 

[Ogi123]

everything is subject to change. this is an outline, not a final draft

About units/civics it would be helpful if you would post full tech tree with indication where those units/civics are. Tech tree presumably changed somewhat because I can't find steel working in downloaded excel.
If you don't mind some more feedback about various things:
Sea/coast currently have 1f/1c with fishery this goes to 2/1, that means that I usually use only seafood titles. There is no point to using water if I need build more health/happiness buildings. I changed it to 1/2 for coast, and lighthouse/harbour gives +1 commerce for water titles. Sea ports were usually biggest cities providing most trade, currently they have same amount of trade routes as land cities. This solutions allows you to get some serious commerce from sea, but you must build infrastructure to do this.
With change to farm plains are in same situation its 2f/1c title. That's problematic because for example before plough Babylon tops at 9/10 pop if you want some non slave production ( 3xbrickworks, wheat, cow, rest cottages). Some cities become unviable because of this. More floodplains on map? +1 hammer on plains?
I have spoken before about windmill, currently it's useless. If you don't want hills give production just remove it. Watermill + croosbow are good enough for machinery.
One crazy idea that I have is removing all inherent bonuses from resources. You want health from wheat/barley/rice/sorghum? Build granary. Happiness from gems/gold/silver - jeweller etc. This would greatly incentivise tall play as opposed to currently going as wide as possible.
Foundry is bugged it's add iron resource bonus multiple times. I changed it to simple +25% production. Works properly like that.
On Nile river there is single flood plain that's is not on river, 1N of gems.
Would it be possible to code research price increase as +3% for each city above first? Those poor 2-3 city civs are already terribly weak. That way they at least have chance in tech race.
On other things I tested game with bringing it back to civ 4 vanilla config (mining hills, plains +1hammer etc.) well with exception of cottages, I don't know where is minimal distance between them python/dll? pro: AI knows how to play that it's build proper stacks and infrastructure. Cons: UHV becomes childplay, you exhaust build list way to fast. Perhaps I should double price of buildings and add +50% to units? Does this mod is intended as marathon speed (1200t)?
New buildings would be greatly appreciated.
Jeweller - +1 happy from gold/gems/silver +10% gold, 80h, forge loses this.
Water well - it's possible to code city to act as source of fresh water?
Amphitheatre +1happy 80h.
Rename hospital to Infirmary, 3 health.
Harbour- additionally +1commerce from water titles.
Foundry- simple +25% production bonus.
There is good graphics for stockyard/smokehouse, public baths, Infirmary in DoC and FFH2.
Some civs having conditional spawns would be good thing. If Seluicids are stable then no Sassanids for example.
Huh, that bit longer than I thought. As always those are only suggestions that you are free to disregard if they conflict with you vision.

 

[Sitalkas]

Shouldn't mercantilism forbid foreign trade as well?

Would you consider a national wonder that increases the number of military units by eg. 5-10 (fixed number)? And requiring a certain amount of barracks or castles of course.

Also, a cool early building idea might be the slave market. Giving extra happiness if a slave is settled, or some extra gold even