RFC Classical World

[Ogi123]

Ah, not exactly for example falxman is currently +1 str and +50% vs melee above normal axe, galatian inf has one more str and 10% city attack etc.

 

[DC123456789]

I will set Granaries and Harbors to give +1 health each and require the resources to build. I think giving them +1 per resource is too much

I think this is a great change, there really are too few ways to increase health in the early game right now.

 

[Ogi123]

If you want some more thoughts about units here is bit different proposition:
1). Spear line (melee), 2 movement
Spearman 4 +50%% vs cav
Heavy Spearman 6 +50% vs cav
Armoured Spearman 8 +50% vs cav

2). Melee line (melee), 2 movement
Axeman 5 +10% city attack
Swordsman 7 +10% city attack
Heavy Swordsman 9 +10% city attack

3). Cavalry line (mounted), 3 movement
Chariot 5 -10% city attack
Horseman 6 -10% city attack
Lancer 8 -10% city attack
Heavy lancer 10 -10% city attack

4). Horse archer line (missile cavalry), 4 movement
Horse Archer 6 -10% city attack, 30% retreat, 1 first strike
Heavy Horse Archer 8 -10% city attack, 35% retreat, 1 first strike

5). Archery line (missile), 2 movement
Bowman 4 +25% city def, 1 first strike
Archer 6 +25% city def, 1 first strike
Marksman 8 +25% city def, 1 first strike
Crossbowman 8 +25% vs melee, 1 first strike

6) Siege (siege), 2 movement
Catapult 3 +50% city attack, bombard 6%
Heavy catapult 5 +50% city attack, bombard 8%

7). Javelins (missile/recon?), 3 movement
Javelinman 4 +50% vs melee, 20% retreat, 1 first strike
Skirmisher/Heavy Javelinman 6 +50% vs melee, 25% retreat, 1 first strike

Not sure about missile and sea. Is crossbow really necessary?

 

[Ogi123]

Quick question: Can you (srpt) post dll with changed back population unhealthiness? I don't use svn so this would be appreciated.

 

[DC123456789]

Also, another minor thing: could Gedrosia be added to the first Seleucid UHV? Not that it really matters much since all it means is building another settler, but for the sake of completeness.

Edit: Also, could the Siwa Oasis be moved up one tile? I think it's too far south, it shouldn't be further south than the Sinai.

 

[Ogi123]

So, my experiments in dll ended in failure. Anybody knows where uhealthy per pop is in dll in hex format?

 

[Samani]

There is a problem with some leaderheads, which just doesn't exist in the game. The leaders are Atilla, Kharavela, Liu Bei, Simhavishnu, Tirayan and Zhao Tuo.
I think the problem comes from ArtDefines_Leaderheads file.
"Art_Def_Leader" for Kharavela is missing and "Art_Def_Leader" for those whom I have mentionned are a bit Strange, but I don't know what to do with them.

About the units, I've played Antigonids and their heavy spearman unit has the same art as their spearman. What do you think about Antigonids heavy spearmen having the same unit art as Greeks heavy spearmen?

 

[srpt]

There is a problem with some leaderheads, which just doesn't exist in the game. The leaders are Atilla, Kharavela, Liu Bei, Simhavishnu, Tirayan and Zhao Tuo.
I think the problem comes from ArtDefines_Leaderheads file.
"Art_Def_Leader" for Kharavela is missing and "Art_Def_Leader" for those whom I have mentionned are a bit Strange, but I don't know what to do with them.

About the units, I've played Antigonids and their heavy spearman unit has the same art as their spearman. What do you think about Antigonids heavy spearmen having the same unit art as Greeks heavy spearmen?

are you playing an old version? none of those issues exist in the current version. the kharavela leaderhead art_def was renamed to the name of the leader it was assigned to, Pusyamitra Sunga.

here is a DLL with the health from population changed back to vanilla. just put it in the assets folder. it should of course overwrite.

about Gedrosia, yes you could put a city there. camels and salt would be unique to the area. there is a city called Pura which is always shown on the maps of Alexander's empire but I've never been able to find any info on it. its Poura on our city name map. I just WBed a city there and it was stagnant at 3 working a plains sheep, camels and salt.

 

[Samani]

I am playing at revision 274 with SVN. This is what I see in the civilopedia

Spoiler :

I added Kharavela leaderhead art myself.
Here is a copy of my artdefines_leaderheads file, as it was just after svn update
View attachment CIV4ArtDefines_Leaderhead.7z

 

[srpt]

its just the buttons that are missing. if any art def is called for by any asset and isn't there in the art def file, the game will crash

I will add the buttons

another tech tree draft:

Spoiler :

related to the tech tree there are some UHV changes coming:

Spoiler :

Nubia - control 6 cities on the Nile by X date. settling sudan and conquering egypt will be necessary. this will replace the tech goal

Satavahanas - be the first to adopt caste system. this is as historical as anything else since there is a lot of doubt about how and when the system developed. I also think its great for them to have a tech goal. the Sungas can be made to race for it to give it suspense

I think there was another one too but I can't remember it now

I had another couple of thoughts about civics. 1. even if a civic only seems historical to 1 or 2 civs, there is still a case for having it in the game. 2. some Indian civs like the Kalinkans, Kalabhras and some Tamil kings are described as "patronizing" multiple religions in historical sources. the Guptas tolerated both Hinduism and Buddhism.

 

[Samani]

The first to discover mathematics could receive a great scientist, and a great engineer for metallurgy.
About gameplay, i find the 3rd Parthian UHV a bit hard due to the lack of Roman units in the middle east, and the last time i have played them, i had to take every Roman city from Cappadocia to Northern Italy to kill 20 units. I was playing on Chieftain, and maybe this was due to the low difficulty level, but i'd like to know if you encounter the same thing.

 

[srpt]

The first to discover mathematics could receive a great scientist, and a great engineer for metallurgy.
About gameplay, i find the 3rd Parthian UHV a bit hard due to the lack of Roman units in the middle east, and the last time i have played them, i had to take every Roman city from Cappadocia to Northern Italy to kill 20 units. I was playing on Chieftain, and maybe this was due to the low difficulty level, but i'd like to know if you encounter the same thing.

each tech should have something for everyone, not just the 1st to discover them.

maybe I will lower the Parthian goal to 15 Roman units

here is a look at what the starting techs would look like under the new tree. bare in mind I am being harsh and denying some civs techs that they could easily start with, partly so as not to over power any of them and partly to give them something to do.

(some of the techs on each sheet should be green)

 

[Ogi123]

Thanks for dll, it additionally solved problem with food/production penalty in second city ring. Now I'm tinkering with civics mainly serfdom,wage labour, caste system and theocracy.

 

[calad]

One thing I would like to point out is lack of early buildings: for example fairgound is now on bulk trade and it was only early building you could use to boost your economy... and now it is gone.

Also I liked that harbour gave +2 food on next coast tiles of city, it made coastal cities more historical bigger. Removing it made some historical cities like Athen much smaler and useless because they cant have a large population.

 

[Ogi123]

My only complains are about AI diplomacy and production. AI cant use slavery so AI produces very little units. Second problem are insane alliances and general AI coordination of troop deployment. AI is very poor on warfare and something should be done about it.

AI production is unresolvable, because AI as you said cannot use slavery witch is essential for production until end of game. Only solution that I see is bringing back ability to mine resourceless hills, they are basis of production. Perhaps even reverting plains to original yields 1f/1h and giving semi desert 1h. In that way AI may start producing units, and this in roundabout way weakens slavery.

One thing I would like to point out is lack of early buildings: for example fairgound is now on bulk trade and it was only early building you could use to boost your economy... and now it is gone.

Also I liked that harbour gave +2 food on next coast tiles of city, it made coastal cities more historical bigger. Removing it made some historical cities like Athen much smaler and useless because they cant have a large population.

Lack of early buildings is actually is somewhat problematic, perhaps some early buildings that give specialist slot, some other with small effect?
Stoneworks/Stonemason - 1 engineer/craftsman slot
Cemetery/Ritual Site - 1 priest slot
name pending - 1 merchant slot
Carnival/Court - 1 artist slot
Elder council/Council - 1 sage slot
Water well - +1health
Workshop - +2 hammer
some name here - +2gold
butcher/storehouse - +1food
name - +1happy
Basically early reasonably cheap buildings.

 

[srpt]

I've noticed that Leoreth has made a new unit_ai for his statesman unit so that basically gives me the confidence that I can make a slave_ai.

sorry I'm not really crazy about any of those building ideas. that doesn't mean I'm against adding a couple of early buildings, but I'd like them to be a bit more obvious. the Well is a possibility. I thought it might be useful to add +1 happiness to walls. this would have the added bonus of encouraging the AI to build them more often.

I don't think we need tons more units on the map. part of the reason the mod runs relatively quickly despite its massive size (almost twice the size of DoC) is the fact that there aren't so many units. it also means that late spawning civs don't face 10+ defenders in very city.

I would really like to keep focused on the new tech tree for now. what do you guys think?

 

[Ogi123]

I've noticed that Leoreth has made a new unit_ai for his statesman unit so that basically gives me the confidence that I can make a slave_ai.

sorry I'm not really crazy about any of those building ideas. that doesn't mean I'm against adding a couple of early buildings, but I'd like them to be a bit more obvious. the Well is a possibility. I thought it might be useful to add +1 happiness to walls. this would have the added bonus of encouraging the AI to build them more often.

I don't think we need tons more units on the map. part of the reason the mod runs relatively quickly despite its massive size (almost twice the size of DoC) is the fact that there aren't so many units. it also means that late spawning civs don't face 10+ defenders in very city.

I would really like to keep focused on the new tech tree for now. what do you guys think?

New tech tree looks okay to me, lesser amount of tech is ok as long as each of them brings something to table. I think that since there is fewer things to research, breaker price should go up.
Production is not a problem... for player that is, if you successfully teach AI to settle slaves and rush buildings there will be a lot more units on map. It's just that currently production means slavery or much later serfdom. Wage labour/Caste system are mostly useless because of how strong slavery is.
EDIT: Although in case of caste system I'm perhaps unfair thanks to +1 from labourer it is probably more useful than I think.
EDIT EDIT: Any ideas what paper and alchemy will do?

 

[srpt]

caste system is actually better for India, since there are far fewer barbs to enslave and wage labor could be very powerful if you had a lot of income.

but I'd actually like to nerf slavery until it's at par. the stats I've been using to balance it are the chance to enslave and the rush production you get from them (which are roughly 30% and 50). maybe I should lower the settled slaves to 1 hammer or make them eat 2 food.

another feature that relates to this is that laborers (default specialist) get 1 commerce which means you can run them without suffering too much financially. does anybody use them? i do.

I'd like to hear from some others about the tech tree as well. it's a big change and I know there will be things about it that I don't see.

 

[Samani]

In my opinion, the current tech tree is good, but I find the new one better because it is less "thick". In the current one, there are too many branches, and I think the new tree might be preferable because of it's clarity.

 

[Ogi123]

caste system is actually better for India, since there are far fewer barbs to enslave and wage labor could be very powerful if you had a lot of income.

but I'd actually like to nerf slavery until it's at par. the stats I've been using to balance it are the chance to enslave and the rush production you get from them (which are roughly 30% and 50). maybe I should lower the settled slaves to 1 hammer or make them eat 2 food.

another feature that relates to this is that laborers (default specialist) get 1 commerce which means you can run them without suffering too much financially. does anybody use them? i do.

I'd like to hear from some others about the tech tree as well. it's a big change and I know there will be things about it that I don't see.

Eh, instead nerfing slavery perhaps boost other civic in that column? Settled slave consuming 2 food means that nobody will do it, because that is basically worse labourer.
In new tech tree it will be best if there isn't any techs that only gives one thing.
EDIT: So I tested new agrarianism, it's to powerful IMHO. Reason is that you farm everywhere anyway, so it's ends more useful than rest civics in this column, because more commerce = more tech. Secondly I just don't like civics that boost improvements, I prefer them to be more universal. In my last game I experimented somewhat with civics so if you want I can post what changes were made and what I think of them.