RIP Oracle

[Archon_Wing]

Have had 2 games on Emperor where this thing vanished by t60.

Anyone got a plan to build this now?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Just play as Qin.

 

[darkace77450]

Would it be safe to presume the pyramids are in a similar situation?

 

[Palo]

Pyramids seems like it goes super early (I've seen it go before T25 on Diety) if anyone has desert so if it's still there at T40 it's likely no Civ started with desert and you've got a reasonable shot to get it. Oracle is hit or miss whether the AI goes for it early. I've had reasonable luck at still getting Oracle on Deity without chopping and since the patch got it around T90 in one game which shocked me. I hadn't planned to even get it but around T80 saw it was still there so I went for it and got it.

 

[The Highwayman]

I haven't had the same experience with Oracle as most since the recent patch. I've built it in three of my five games played since the patch and didn't want it in the other two. The Oracle went T66 on Deity in one of the two games I didn't build it (can't remember the other game). It used to be a staple in all my non dom games and I could reliably get it pre T60 if I had the chops (~90%). My path would always be COL -> Foreign Trade -> Early Empire (establish Magnus) -> Mysticism. Sometimes I could wait for State Workforce and Corvee and Political Philosophy for Autocracy, but that depends on the early culture flow. A little easier now with secret societies enabled.

I've heard horror stories of the Oracle going pre T30, but have never witnessed it. The Pyramids on the other hand....

On a side note, Oxford seems more competitive, with it going T137 on Deity in a recent game.

 

[Alucard648]

Rumors are that 6th and final DLC pack for New Frontier Pass will have new game mode called Wonder Power, which buffs all wonders, natural and man-made. Have fun not letting anyone grab Oracle (reveals all strategic resources, no tech required, to owner), Hanging Gardens (+4 housing, +2 amenities in every city), or worse - Statue of Zeus (one-time bonus scales with techs, +15 strength for attacking cities, double bonus for siege units). And forget about Secret Societies specific wonders, like Castle Dracula, School of Magic, Fort Knox and Eldritch City. They will be gone before T120...

 

[Casworon]

Rumors are that 6th and final DLC pack for New Frontier Pass will have new game mode called Wonder Power, which buffs all wonders, natural and man-made. Have fun not letting anyone grab Oracle (reveals all strategic resources, no tech required, to owner), Hanging Gardens (+4 housing, +2 amenities in every city), or worse - Statue of Zeus (one-time bonus scales with techs, +15 strength for attacking cities, double bonus for siege units). And forget about Secret Societies specific wonders, like Castle Dracula, School of Magic, Fort Knox and Eldritch City. They will be gone before T120...

Where are these rumours from?

 

[kaspergm]

Just play as Qin.

Yes, as expected, Oracle and Pyramids go super fast now, unless you are in a situation where no one has a desert start. I actually had Oracle sniped from me in a game as Qin where I used builders to rush it ... ouch. On the other hand, Great Bath now is very easy to build (and much less rewarding). I guess it’s good for balance that Oracle is no longer a freebie, but I still miss it a lot.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I'm staying away from early wonders for a time now to get a general feel on the competitiveness for them (Deity) before/if I resume going for them.
Pyramids so far seem allright, but chops would be encouraged as opposed to how it used to be.
Oracle seems hit or miss as usual, but lately I've been leaning towards the camp of this wonder being overrated as I've had games where I do get it but still don't see the future saved faith value add up to justify precious early production and risk.
Fortunately my go-to wonders like Mausoleum (that thing is a beast for any science game) still seem rather uncontested.
Actually lost a Kilwa rush lately, but found I could live without as usual.
Interestingly, I was able to get the Apadana in my last Deity game, and at something ridiculous like late medieval/early renaissance(!).
Noone had built it and my capital was kind of idle anyway, so I thought "why not", and actually got it at such a relatively extreme late point in the game.
To make it even stranger, I built Apadana after I had managed to get Machu Picchu (another wonder the AI loves to take super early).
Never seen that happen before on Deity!

I found that AIs prioritizing early wonders now can kind of be viewed as a buff to the human player, as long as you stay away from wonder whoring yourself early on.
The more AIs that try to get early wonders, the more AIs are "wasting" their early production for non-essential stuff.
I always like it when I see a potentially dangerous neighbour (Korea, or any of the war mongers really) double down on Great Bath, Stongehenge, Oracle etc.
This only gives me more room to peacefully expand or build up an army to wipe them out, and in the case that they do get their wonders up, that wonder might now soon be mine!

On the other hand, Great Bath now is very easy to build (and much less rewarding).

That might be coincidental, as the Great Bath for me has been taken by turn 35 (Epic speed, Deity) in all my recent games (3 games since the patch).
Not risking that wonder as it stands unless more observations show that it is actually feasible.
Until then, the only way I see that the player can get it somewhat reliably (assuming it gets taken around t30-35 on epic, or t20-25 on normal) is through Builder firstm into rushing Pottery and then Mining, into Magnus harvesting wheat/rice once and then chopping twice (requiring SS mode and some slight luck to get the fast governor promotion).
That of course is still a very risky opener, and requires a very particular start to pull off, for... "questionable" rewards.

 

[kaspergm]

Oracle seems hit or miss as usual, but lately I've been leaning towards the camp of this wonder being overrated as I've had games where I do get it but still don't see the future saved faith value add up to justify precious early production and risk.

Isn’t the main draw of the Oracle the 2 extra GPP added to all districts in that city? Which synergies with the 100% promotion on Pingala so a Campus with a library is 8 GSP in one city, which is super powerful. Basically it also used to let you grab all the early Merchants and if you rushed Apprenticeship, all the early Engineers. Which btw. synergies super well with Mausoleum, because rushing Mausoleum with the first charge on Isidore of Miletus (or whatever the name is) basically gives you the wonder for free.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Isn’t the main draw of the Oracle the 2 extra GPP added to all districts in that city? Which synergies with the 100% promotion on Pingala so a Campus with a library is 8 GSP in one city, which is super powerful. Basically it also used to let you grab all the early Merchants and if you rushed Apprenticeship, all the early Engineers. Which btw. synergies super well with Mausoleum, because rushing Mausoleum with the first charge on Isidore of Miletus (or whatever the name is) basically gives you the wonder for free.

I used to think so about that draw too, but since I usually play with 10 players these days, I find that most of the "important" early GP go fast anyway, to the point where I can't reliably get, say, Isaac Newton, anywhere consistently anymore even if I double down on Pingala and an early Campus with a Library..
That being said, I also tend to delay campuses a bit these days in favour of early warfare or peaceful expansion (minimum of 8 cities as fast as possible before the land is taken), so the return on investment is somewhat low for me personally, though that may be up to personal play style.
Either way, since I'm foregoing that early Campus with Pingala, the faith discount is the only thing that would really pay off in the long run, and I'm simply not buying GPs enough to justify getting the Oracle.
As for GEs, I usually buy the early Isidore with faith these days, as I seem to be swimming in faith after GS was released (either from holy sites, pantheons like Earth Goddess which seems uncontested now, or the Void Singers).
On the other hand, Isidore and Filippo are about the only ones I'll bother buying for all that faith, so there's not much of a discount there.

Don't get me wrong though, Oracle is great.
But since I've changed my opener lately I found that it just gives me a higher success rate overall and a more comfortable late game, whereas an early Oracle can set me back quite a bit in the overall development of my empire.
Had too many games where I got it early and then found myself faced with an aggressive Montezuma at my doorstep and a questionable army of my own, or generally out of room to settle more than a handful of cities (at which point I again need to start turning my production into an army).

 

[criZp]

Where are these rumours from?

He made it all up, the rumor is that the last dlc will be some kind of new economy mode

 

[Casworon]

Yeah we have two game modes left (ignoring any they might add in free patches) and we know one of them is an `alternate economy`. Seeing as the game modes so far have taken a game mechanic and supercharged it i wouldn't be surprised to see a super wonder one

 

[Joezumah]

Wonder Power alternative game mode actually sounds pretty sweet. I would play that.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Wonder Power alternative game mode actually sounds pretty sweet. I would play that.

I'm just not sure of the cost/benefit/fun ratio of rewriting the powers of every single wonder

 

[UWHabs]

I'm just not sure of the cost/benefit/fun ratio of rewriting the powers of every single wonder

While I'd like a thorough rebalance of the wonders, feels like a new game mode would need to at least change things up with how they truly work. So like, sure, buff the wonders, but maybe you make all wonders expire after a time, or change how you discover/research/place them, or allow them to be destroyed, or something like that. Or at least it would add some randomness, so that, say, there's only a 50% chance of the pyramids being available in your game.

Otherwise, it may be anecdotal, but my last 2 games I've definitely noticed that the Apadana is going way later than it used to. Like, I think it went completely unbuilt in my last one, and my current one just hit industrial and I think it's still available. Similar with Machu Pichu - I remember it always used to get rushed so fast, but again, this is two games in a row where it's still available well into the medieval era.

Pyramids seems like it goes super early (I've seen it go before T25 on Diety) if anyone has desert so if it's still there at T40 it's likely no Civ started with desert and you've got a reasonable shot to get it. Oracle is hit or miss whether the AI goes for it early. I've had reasonable luck at still getting Oracle on Deity without chopping and since the patch got it around T90 in one game which shocked me. I hadn't planned to even get it but around T80 saw it was still there so I went for it and got it.

Problem I always have with those "if it's still there at T40", I always get super scared that I'm going to start it and then it will get completed a turn before I can finish it. Had that thinking in my current game for Artemis - I had a nice spot for it, but I had to delay for a few turns for Magnus to establish and to position my builder to chop the forest before placing the wonder. It was late enough that after that I only had like 4-5 turns left to go. I won out, so didn't lose it, but it's always a little nerve-racking as you get down to those last couple turns.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

He made it all up, the rumor is that the last dlc will be some kind of new economy mode

That's not the last, we have 0 i nformation on the last pack.

The January pack will include Economy pack, Kublai Khan and Vietnam.

 

[leandrombraz]

What about other early Wonders? Are they a bit easier to build, now that the AI has another two wonders that they might focus on early? Did anyone try to build them? It's a Classical Wonder, but is the AI still rushing Machu Picchu like their lives depend on it?

 

[The Highwayman]

@leandrombraz apadana is noticeably easier to get. I built Machu Pichu in a domination game around T90, but I've also seen that go T60 per usual. I only have 5 games to go off of since patch so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Vargas1]

I've played a mix of Emperor/Immortal post-patch, and it seems Oracle is going somewhat earlier than before but I haven't seen it as too crazy. I likely could have had in in several games had I went that route (I haven't tried for it since patch). For me, Pyramids are gone much earlier now, including several games where I barely got to masonry (or didn't even get there) before it was built. I've had one game where I managed to build it, out of about four that I tried in, and that one game I rushed masonry and then fully chopped it in with Magnus (SS mode).