US Capitol Breached

[Sommerswerd]

Well, you're talking to someone who thinks that Trump and his MAGA supporters and Malcolm X and his supporters both have a lot of things in common, so maybe I should not continue that discussion.

Well you're the one who asked what the heck Malcolm X had to do with the thread, so if you're gonna "stay on topic!" someone... at least do it to yourself

On a related, but more relevant note, it occurs to me that Trump's claims of vote fraud, which was the flimsy justification for the MAGA coup... are going to be problematic for Democrats going forward, because he and his supporters have claimed every imaginable type/variety of voter fraud, and been debunked at every turn. So my concern, is that if, in the future the Republicans "win" an election as a result of actual vote fraud... when the Democrats complain/challenge, the response will be "Oh! We thought you said that voter fraud claims were baseless, and voter fraud was a made up conspiracy theory... you said to stop being crybabies and accept the results. Now all of a sudden voter fraud is real?" Of course the Democrats response will be "When you claimed widespread voter fraud that would change the result of the election, you had no evidence, we do."... but then the response will be "Oh! How convenient! When it helps you, there's so-called evidence... but when it would have helped us, there's no evidence... yeah right."

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself here, and there isn't any way to prevent that from happening, but it popped into my mind so I wanted to put it out there so I could stop thinking about it.

 

[mitsho]

I hope three-letter government agencies are up to the task of arresting all of them.

edit: some people here seem to think that I'm sadistic or want to see people dead for the fun of it when I say much more lethal force should have been used against them. Many of them have already said they will return if their demands aren't met. The only thing at this point that will stop it is by killing them when they pay their second visit, and thus setting the example for any others who think it would be worth it.

What‘s your take on long prison sentences for the identified rioters? And - if admissible - for the conspiracists on Parler and Co? I mean that should be preferable to deadly force, no?

 

[caketastydelish]

As someone who supports the anti-terrorism laws passed under the Bush administration (and all of this was clearly terrorism, as defined by US law) give them a one-way ticket to Guantanamo Bay. I am serious. That could be an extreme opinion, but it's mine. I view these people in absolute disdain.

 

[GinandTonic]

As far as I understand it, the constitutional protections gitmo circumvents would still apply to US citizens.

Not to mention the irony of undermining your constitution to protect the constitution. It's like fighting for peace, shagging for virginity or that French law telling women what they can wear to protect them from being told what they can wear.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Undermining legality to supposedly protect legality is the typical charaterist of an auto-golpe. I would judge them and Trump for high treason not terrorism.

 

[r16]

Some moron used NORTH KOREAN FLAG in the riot, thinking it was a texas flag

trump is good pals with the Rocketman of Pyongyang and the dude is threatening the Bidon America with a nuclear strike . lt has been a long running thing to deny North's nukes to South in Unification , but then who would have known they would have be denied to Commie hating American Right as well ?

 

[Angst]

As someone who supports the anti-terrorism laws passed under the Bush administration (and all of this was clearly terrorism, as defined by US law) give them a one-way ticket to Guantanamo Bay. I am serious. That could be an extreme opinion, but it's mine. I view these people in absolute disdain.

I never liked the Bush laws in question, but I do understand they have some use as a function, and if they aren't put into place here I'll find it disgraceful.

It should be a mechanical thing, to put it in a way. Sometimes there is a reason to storm a parliament; I don't believe the current was legitimate, but it's something that happens and may even be healthy. On the other hand, it is also a function of the government and police to crack down on an insurrection like this. The fact that it's given a light hand here is disgusting. The US is so good at putting people in jail over nonsense, but storming the parliament? Nah, let them leave the site peacefully.

Luckily the FBI is on the case and have made some arrests.

 

[Lexicus]

Well you're the one who asked what the heck Malcolm X had to do with the thread, so if you're gonna "stay on topic!" someone... at least do it to yourself

On a related, but more relevant note, it occurs to me that Trump's claims of vote fraud, which was the flimsy justification for the MAGA coup... are going to be problematic for Democrats going forward, because he and his supporters have claimed every imaginable type/variety of voter fraud, and been debunked at every turn. So my concern, is that if, in the future the Republicans "win" an election as a result of actual vote fraud... when the Democrats complain/challenge, the response will be "Oh! We thought you said that voter fraud claims were baseless, and voter fraud was a made up conspiracy theory... you said to stop being crybabies and accept the results. Now all of a sudden voter fraud is real?" Of course the Democrats response will be "When you claimed widespread voter fraud that would change the result of the election, you had no evidence, we do."... but then the response will be "Oh! How convenient! When it helps you, there's so-called evidence... but when it would have helped us, there's no evidence... yeah right."

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself here, and there isn't any way to prevent that from happening, but it popped into my mind so I wanted to put it out there so I could stop thinking about it.

Yeah, you're right. Of course, electoral fraud and voter fraud are two different things.

Incidentally, my view of the voter fraud claims is that they were always a smokescreen, and that Republicans and conservatives tend to just view certain voters as illegitimate voters.

 

[r16]

telegramm in the news of New Turkey as well . When social media in the US temporarily shut down Trump , the smart people of the Pelican group were immediately vocal . New Turkey by the end of last month was speaking about a new coup , which invariably show up when the Opposition shows signs of getting ahead . Accordingly there would be a coup and evil Americans would turn off the PM's accounts so that he would not be able to mobilize the masses . Which incidentally is far more related to the Pelican group which has so successfully evolved from being Congregation assets to kingmakers under PM's rule . They are kinda isolated these days and everybody knows the Bidon Administration will prefer the Congregation hence the Fecebook management would turn over all their whatsup secrets to Congregation . Accordingly they are all moving over to Telegramm , which operates like "illegally" in Russia after they provided full access to FSB , the neo-KGB . Citing some sudden rush from Fecebook to sign a deal where your personal data can be accessed by people , you know , as if it wasn't already . From that one can also assume Zuckerberg is offering some co-operation to Feds , now that Bidon might want to pressure Fecebook as an hotbed of Trumpism .

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yeah, you're right. Of course, electoral fraud and voter fraud are two different things.

Incidentally, my view of the voter fraud claims is that they were always a smokescreen, and that Republicans and conservatives tend to just view certain voters as illegitimate voters.

Yes... and my point is that Trump has set it up so that going forward, they have a stronger sounding justification for dismissing vote fraud, ie when Repblicans alleged it, they were rebuffed... therefore, no one can ever allege widespread//election-changing voter fraud again.

 

[Ferocitus]

It should be a mechanical thing, to put it in a way. Sometimes there is a reason to storm a parliament; I don't believe the current was legitimate, but it's something that happens and may even be healthy.

It's ludicrous to try it in the US without overwhelming support in as many states as possible.

If your cause can't get (at the very least) 2/3 of adults rusted on, then even if you "stormed the hill" and took
power in some sense, you'd be spending a lot of time and energy fighting to keep control.

In some countries a series of significant general strikes would be a very good indicator of support.
I really don't know if that is the case in the US.

 

[Angst]

It's ludicrous to try it in the US without overwhelming support in as many states as possible.

If your cause can't get (at the very least) 2/3 of adults rusted on, then even if you "stormed the hill" and took
power in some sense, you'd be spending a lot of time and energy fighting to keep control.

In some countries a series of significant general strikes would be a very good indicator of support.
I really don't know if that is the case in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the impracticality of the effort. It's just that sometimes capitals are stormed and it's sometimes a necessary thing to do in order to root out a government. Needs public supoprt to work? Of course.

This does not mean that all such parliamental takeovers are equal, of course. Trump's goons are without merit.

 

[Ferocitus]

Don't get me wrong, I understand the impracticality of the effort. It's just that sometimes capitals are stormed and it's sometimes a necessary thing to do in order to root out a government. Needs public supoprt to work? Of course.

This does not mean that all such parliamental takeovers are equal, of course. Trump's goons are without merit.

I didn't "get you wrong". I was agreeing with you.

I'm more interested in what would be considered as significant public support for a cause
of such importance and how you'd best measure it. Would a series of significant general
strikes be effective in the US? I don't know that there is the organisational structure to
arrange that type of action in the US now. I'm sure it could be developed very quickly if
deemed necessary or desirable.

I blurted out 2/3 of adults in every state as a guess, but the US isn't a homogeneous paste.
Opposing states wouldn't line up as neatly as in the Civil War - it would more of a patchwork,
like the red-blue electoral map.

Of course, who is allowed to have the box with the Big Red Button and super-sekrit password
is another matter.

 

[Paul in Saudi]

You are misinformed. The incident you claim never happened. There was absolutely no basis in fact for such a reckless and unfounded claim. As CNN reports the officer simply had a stroke and fell down. No protester struck the officer and the whole thing as captured on video by CCTV.

I suppose at this point some apologies are in order.

 

[Ferocitus]

Interesting legal opinion piece on the upcoming impeachment appeared on Politico an hour ago.
Democrats Are Pursuing the Wrong Impeachment Charges Against President Trump
https://www.politico.com/news/magaz...cite-insurrection-seditious-conspiracy-456937

 

[red_elk]

Having a lower class birth family and making it to the upper levels of national power merely means one is ambitious and capable in politics.

It also means people in the upper levels of national power accept outsiders from "lower class".

 

[Cutlass]

Statement from The Arnold.

Thing is, I really don't expect all this to cost Republicans much. Since any with any decency have already stopped voting Republican.

 

[Kyriakos]

Arnold making a statement about this.
Yes, this is America alright

 

[aelf]

Put it this way: who does calling the circus of January 6th "an attempted coup" benefit?

Congressional Democrats, who can refuse all criticism for at least the next two years on the grounds that they are the last line of defence against an incipient fascist putsch.

Congressional Republicans, who have now been provided license to separate themselves from the toxic husk of the Trump administration without sacrificing their electoral base.

The security state, who have a whole new suit of insurrectionists and enemies to justify every-expanding powers and budgets.

The media-industrial complex, who have an exciting new spectacle to take up air-time, and for pundits to endless dissect and re-dissect.

Does it help working class Americans? Does it help them understand the economic or political apparatus which confronts them? Does it provide them with an avenue towards achieving substantial, lasting change in their country? Or does it simply present politics as even more alien, mystifying and hostile than it was previously?

Follow the money, sorta thing.

On the contrary, thinking about it in terms of a neo-manichean conflict would probably do some good here. No more of the handwringing over calling fascists fascists. We might be able to get a whole new generation of anti-fascists.

 

[thecrazyscot]

Arnold making a statement about this.
Yes, this is America alright

He is an immigrant, self-made man, and a former state governor. He's about as American as you can possibly be.