Any news on the possibility of DLL being released?

[Duke William of Normandy]

Using a third party IP means contracts and contracts can have weird stipulations.

And you can't say bad stuff about a company you have a contract with because you can't afford to do so. The legal repercussions have to be taken into account. While Firaxis could release a statement, they can't risk their said statement being misinterpreted.

 

[Gedemon]

Yeah, I get that. But if third party IP is preventing Firaxis from releasing the DLL, then couldn't they just tell us that's the case instead of just leaving us to wonder?

yes, but maybe they planned to find an alternative 4 years ago.

 

[Kwami]

Using a third party IP means contracts and contracts can have weird stipulations.

EDIT: Here's some examples of stipulations from review embargoes that go weird places.

Well, sure. But I really doubt that there's a contract that says, "Don't tell your players that you used any third-party IP." They don't have to tell us which IP they've used or who's holding up the release. Just that they can't release it because of third-party IP.

EDIT: Though, from that article, 2K seems to be the absolute worst when it comes to restrictions on reviews. So, maybe the legal department is just too involved here, too.

 

[pokiehl]

This is why I filled my explanation with disclaimers. Let’s not all get carried away and start talking like “3rd party IP” is the sole reason they aren’t releasing the source code.

We don’t know. Maybe it is, maybe it’s part of the reason, maybe it’s any number of other factors I didn’t mention or think of. Who knows why they don’t announce it. Could be a million reasons.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Well, sure. But I really doubt that there's a contract that says, "Don't tell your players that you used any third-party IP." They don't have to tell us which IP they've used or who's holding up the release. Just that they can't release it because of third-party IP.

It's more likely that the contract would forbid Firaxis mentioning trade secrets and Firaxis saying they were using Programs X and Y could maybe be construed as trade secrets or something based on the way the programs could in theory interact. If Firaxis were to be sued by a third party there could be an injunction against Firaxis preventing the sale of Civ6 while the lawsuit is going on, which would be bad.

 

[bbbt]

Did they release the source code for XCOM2?

 

[InsidiousMage]

We don’t know. Maybe it is, maybe it’s part of the reason, maybe it’s any number of other factors I didn’t mention or think of. Who knows why they don’t announce it. Could be a million reasons.

Off the top of my head maybe Firaxis doesn't want there to be the appearance of discrepancy between PC and non-PC versions of the game, the game's life cycle got extended at some point which pushed back the release of the DLL, there is a massive patch or something coming that changes some fundamental aspects of the game and Firaxis will release after that, and so on.

 

[pokiehl]

Off the top of my head maybe Firaxis doesn't want there to be the appearance of discrepancy between PC and non-PC versions of the game, the game's life cycle got extended at some point which pushed back the release of the DLL, there is a massive patch or something coming that changes some fundamental aspects of the game and Firaxis will release after that, and so on.

We've already sort of been through the fact that there are myriad reasons. (Note that the "game's lifecycle" one is not compelling since the DLLs for IV and V were released before the development of those games concluded). My post above wasn't commenting on why they won't release the DLL (I already commented on that in the last page) - it was commenting on why they won't announce why they haven't released the DLL.

For my end, my prior posts on these matters wasn't to fuel endless speculation as to why we don't have the DLL (not an interesting topic to me since no one can prove anything) -- it was simply a reaction to the prevailing notion of some people here that the decision to not release the DLL was solely because "firaxis/2K are evil/bad/dumb/incompetent/greedy"

 

[agonistes]

Exactly this. It would be great if Firaxis would share the DLL source code with us. It would open up quite a few doors, most significantly with regards to controlling AI actions. It would probably be a great boon to documenting all the modifiers and lua methods, the current documentation we have is passable, but is quite spotty, and occasionally lacks important notes on usage.

But it is not going to miraculously spark some golden age of Civ VI modding, and as a modder I did and will actively avoid trying to rely on DLL mods as much as possible for the sake of compatibility and flexibility: the only mod I ever made that needed a DLL mod was Suzerainty I believe. A couple of other mods were flexible and used features from the Community Patch, but could work without it too.

If I ever get around to finishing my Civ VI Decisions mod, it’s not going to rely on a DLL mod for instance (and that mod isn’t held up by anything technical, I just don’t have the time to code up the decisions )

We all would like to see DLL access, but there is not a massive horde of angry modders laying siege to Firaxis’s gates trying to get it. I would be more than content to continue working without it.

Define horde. I'd say there is a sizable body of players who want @Gedemon to get what he needs.

My interest in civ has diminished to almost zero. But I don't know if the DLL would allow us to have the giant earth map back.

 

[Gedemon]

But I don't know if the DLL would allow us to have the giant earth map back.

nop it won't I'm afraid, I think that's either memory or graphic related, both are not part of the gameplay DLL.

 

[InsidiousMage]

it was commenting on why they won't announce why they haven't released the DLL.

My bad but I can't imagine Firaxis saying the aren't releasing the DLL because the game is now on consoles or that, given how tight lipped they were about the civs and leaders in NFP, they will release at the end of the game's life cycle but there is still more Civ6 to come.

(Note that the "game's lifecycle" one is not compelling since the DLLs for IV and V were released before the development of those games concluded).

The industry has changed a lot since then though and maybe some higher ups and Firaxis or 2K have strong opinions on when, or even if, the DLL should be released.

 

[Linklite]

I don’t want to go too far off topic but frankly at this point I’m not likely to purchase a Civ 7 if they don’t release the DLL for 6. Modders clearly seem more dedicated to the game than its actual developers.

The AI has been in an untenable state for the entire duration of Civ 6. They are so bad that I probably wouldn’t have purchased a single expansion if I hadn’t found a weekly Civ 6 MP group. There is no fun, excitement, or challenge to facing the AI.

I'm not saying that this is THE reason, or the only reason, but might be worth bearing in mind.

Gamers attitudes matter. The reason I haven't gotten Civ V is because the attitude on here seems like it's not worth it without mkds, and I'm no going to pay for a game that requires mods, nor can I use them. If I'd seen the attitudes on here before I bought, I may well not have bought Civ VI either - you can't mod on the Switch anyway and why should I have to mod it anyway?

When people talk about VP the way they do here, it makes the game sound unplayable to those of us who can't/won't use mods and so costs FXS money. FXS isn't here to give you Civ, there here to take money. Allowing something like VP can end up costing them money as those who use it basically trash the base product.

Perhaps if we had more of the attitude that mods improve an already good product, they'd be more likely to be cooperative.

 

[agonistes]

What do you think "making the AI better" entails? You seem to treat it like a simple on/off switch, or some basic things that can be done after doing a C++ tutorial... If it were that easy to create a competent AI surely the devs would have done it by now.

I disagree.

Similar to @Gedemon , I have no formal programming education, but I modded NWN, and was able to greatly improve the ai (meaning, by subjective standards).

The ability to improve the ai does not rest solely in the capacity of the engine.

I think this is clear in the overall game design. There is a lot of tunnel vision in vi. Bluntly: vi's developers love the game, but are not very good at it, and they failed to consider options and outcomes because they could not see them, and did not account for the possibility that they might exist.

This extends into ai. The ability to improve it exists, but its possible they don't know how - logically and/or strategically.

To argue against this, you would have to explain away some incredibly obvious ai shortcomings.

But maybe they decided investing in ai wasn't worth it. Maybe the majority of players don't really care about having a challenging ai - they just want a pretty game with gadgets to play with.

This does, however, open up room for a competitor to the civ series, because the game has strayed far from what it was.

 

[InsidiousMage]

why should I have to mod it anyway?

I gave CK3 a try and I feel this so much. I hated the way inheritance* works in that game, among other things, and found it incredibly frustrating playing with no mods. Mods should be nice add-ons, not essentials to a functioning game.

*I fully understand how it works, which is why I hate it.

 

[criZp]

Did they release the source code for XCOM2?

I'm pretty sure they did.

 

[ThunderLizard2]

Define horde. I'd say there is a sizable body of players who want @Gedemon to get what he needs.

My interest in civ has diminished to almost zero. But I don't know if the DLL would allow us to have the giant earth map back.

Same here. I would never buy Civ VII and have been buying Civ titles back to the original. I think someone else made the point that Civ has moved on from its roots with more serious players who like a challenge to more casuals who like pretty screens and could care less about the AI being completely inept. Maybe that's a natural progression. HumanKind will hopefully step in to fill the gap left by Firaxis.

I gave CK3 a try and I feel this so much. I hated the way inheritance* works in that game, among other things, and found it incredibly frustrating playing with no mods. Mods should be nice add-ons, not essentials to a functioning game.

*I fully understand how it works, which is way I hate it.

Agree about CK3. Game play wise it's a step back from CK2 but adds prettier 3D graphics and nude characters.

 

[Dotsworthy]

I disagree.

Similar to @Gedemon , I have no formal programming education, but I modded NWN, and was able to greatly improve the ai (meaning, by subjective standards).

The ability to improve the ai does not rest solely in the capacity of the engine.

I think this is clear in the overall game design. There is a lot of tunnel vision in vi. Bluntly: vi's developers love the game, but are not very good at it, and they failed to consider options and outcomes because they could not see them, and did not account for the possibility that they might exist.

This extends into ai. The ability to improve it exists, but its possible they don't know how - logically and/or strategically.

To argue against this, you would have to explain away some incredibly obvious ai shortcomings.

But maybe they decided investing in ai wasn't worth it. Maybe the majority of players don't really care about having a challenging ai - they just want a pretty game with gadgets to play with.

This does, however, open up room for a competitor to the civ series, because the game has strayed far from what it was.

I would argue it's probably the latter. Vox Populi was build by a team of amatuer devs whose sole purpose was to make a gameplay balance mod that improved the AI. The team at Firaxis spends a fraction of their time working on AI, along with fixing bugs, adding new content and rebalancing old content. Given the increase in complexity from even V, a complete overhaul of VI's AI would be possible but it would take a large amount of work and I assume one or all of the higher ups just don't see the return on investment. VI is a pretty big success and has made 2K a lot of money, so why make the effort.

I say this as someone who really likes VI, but someone who also would like them to make the gameplay simpler for the next iteration, both to help the AI and cut down on some of the busywork.

 

[InsidiousMage]

I say this as someone who really likes VI, but someone who also would like them to make the gameplay simpler for the next iteration, both to help the AI and cut down on some of the busywork.

Honestly, it feels like this something games need to do in general. I mean, the motto of the industry right now seems to be "more more more" not "better," probably because that is a more objective measure (Featuring Five New Game Modes!) vs the subjective measure of making a game well balanced with a lot of depth.

 

[Dotsworthy]

Honestly, it feels like this something games need to do in general. I mean, the motto of the industry right now seems to be "more more more" not "better," probably because that is a more objective measure (Featuring Five New Game Modes!) vs the subjective measure of making a game well balanced with a lot of depth.

Definitely. I also think that Firaxis have their own internal pressure to change mechanics with each iteration. V's workers were a unit that cost gpt but could improve tiles for the entirety of the game. VIs builders are instant but have limited charges and you have to constantly buy or reproduce them, requiring many more clicks than V and being harder for the AI to use.

This might be a tangent, but it does help when devs stuck with mechanics that the AI can use effeciently.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Definitely. I also think that Firaxis have their own internal pressure to change mechanics with each iteration. V's workers were a unit that cost gpt but could improve tiles for the entirety of the game. VIs builders are instant but have limited charges and you have to constantly buy or reproduce them, requiring many more clicks than V and being harder for the AI to use.

This might be a tangent, but it does help when devs stuck with mechanics that the AI can use effeciently.

This is probably weird comparison but, aside from being able to trick it with the new game mechanics on occasion, the AI in Pokemon knows how the battle system works because it's been the same for every gen. Sure, Civ needs to change to keep up with the times but the big break from Civ5 to Civ6 doesn't seem to have been matched with an improvement in the AI. Complex systems are fine but the game still need to be playable for the AI. I mostly enjoy the new Secret Societies mode but I am probably going to start playing without it because I don't really want to see anymore late game AI Cultist spam that stand around and do nothing.