Barbie Movie Discussion (Spoilers)

I did, I said the country was collectively stupid enough to repeatedly vote Law and Justice, but I've said the same exact thing about any other country dumb enough to elect conservatives (yes including the US) so 🤷
Oh right. Weird how Eva extrapolated that to an entire bunch of posters then.

Well I guess they only misrepresented me then :D Figure the point still stands.
 
He said the series, not the books. He spoke from the perspective of the series and what they feel they're able to portray

He said that they had to simplify the source material (the books) as audiences would not be able to comprehend it.
 
Again I've yet to see the Barbie movie, is the uptopia an eco one where consumptive and lifestyle goals are not the priority (when I think of barbie I think of self-indulgent capitalism so I'm finding it a lil ironic that all the forum commies seem to love it)?

It's a world of plastic people in plastic houses, and the lifestyles seem broadly similar to a typical Californian's, but they seemingly don't need to actually eat or consume anything and nothing ever breaks, and everything just works magically without having actual water or electricity or gas or anything like that, seemingly.

So... yes and no, I guess?
 
He said that they had to simplify the source material (the books) as audiences would not be able to comprehend it.
And maybe he's being an anti-American snob.

But there are two factors here. One, stuff changes when you adapt it.

The other is the audience matters. And it's a fact that a faithful representation of something from a different medium means that yes, to widen the audience, stuff needs to be dumbed down. You can't fit every single bit of nuance from a book to even a play, nevermind a TV show. They convey the story in different ways.

The context is he's answering fans, people who consider themselves hot stuff at this kind of thing. But then they also don't understand the basic challenges in adapting written media to a show, so, lol. And again, all of the media optics about this only exist because of the star power Cavill has, and the dedicated contigent of very "not racist" fans who can "rationally explain" why it's a "travesty" that Yen isn't white anymore.

The quote shouldn't be taken as a standalone thing, even if he's being a snob about it. Eva's argument doesn't exist in a vacuum, especially considering the wider "woke" nonsense.
 
What fever dream has you reading, this time?

Denial of stone of the outcomes of broad social and economic upheaval? Some sort of judgment on those in tragedy? Judgement of those maybe not?

The Toys That Made Us did a whole episode on Barbie, it was interesting.
Done! :band:

 
@EvaDK i apologize if I misunderpreted your post and the context of what's-his-name's comments. I got a bit annoyed at what I thought was being said and made a bad joke in response.
 
So you're talking about your own personal definition of 'woke' and merely disagreeing with someone else's definition?

So what's all that drama about people who have their own understanding ignoring a definition that was supposedly explained multiple times? Can't people have their understanding on it based on other sources?
Because it's not about a definition that has been explained many times. It about specific posters' specific responses on this site. See below in my reply to Lex for a better explanation...
Rob, I don't say this with the intent of insulting you, but the reason your "nuanced, detailed explanation" there gets the response it does is that it not only does not add any new insight to the conversation, it's literally just repeating the same confusions that were already directly called out by @schlaufuchs and others earlier in the thread.

I agree people should be polite, generally, but it gets incredibly wearing when you hear the same argument 20 times and each time the next person making the argument demands you respond as if you've never heard the argument before.
Well, people keep asking what it means (I hate the term myself - it's so watered down as to be pointless, so I try not to even use it in my posts - don't always succeed, but try). But then when people on this site (not "many people") give their personal interpretation & try to answer the question that gets asked, it would be nice to have that response actually addressed, even picked apart, from the people who asked the question.

Instead of falling back on "aha, so you mean it has a [X] person in it!" It's dismissive. If someone simply wants to say exactly what you just said, that's totally fine, but the typical response to a "nuanced, detailed explanation" is just... not to listen & fall back on what some nebulous "other people say" instead of maybe asking for clarification, or disagreeing on a particular point. If people want to rail against what other people on the internet have said, then why bother asking other posters on this site for their particular insights on the phenomenon?

It also gets wearing when you get asked something, answer it in detail in good faith, & then get the same generic strawmen thrown back at you instead of just doing what you just did & saying why the explanation doesn't resonate for you.

All that said, I appreciate your response. :)
 
Because it's not about a definition that has been explained many times. It about specific posters' specific responses on this site. See below in my reply to Lex for a better explanation...

Well, people keep asking what it means (I hate the term myself - it's so watered down as to be pointless, so I try not to even use it in my posts - don't always succeed, but try). But then when people on this site (not "many people") give their personal interpretation & try to answer the question that gets asked, it would be nice to have that response actually addressed, even picked apart, from the people who asked the question.

Instead of falling back on "aha, so you mean it has a [X] person in it!" It's dismissive. If someone simply wants to say exactly what you just said, that's totally fine, but the typical response to a "nuanced, detailed explanation" is just... not to listen & fall back on what some nebulous "other people say" instead of maybe asking for clarification, or disagreeing on a particular point. If people want to rail against what other people on the internet have said, then why bother asking other posters on this site for their particular insights on the phenomenon?

It also gets wearing when you get asked something, answer it in detail in good faith, & then get the same generic strawmen thrown back at you instead of just doing what you just did & saying why the explanation doesn't resonate for you.

All that said, I appreciate your response. :)

In Florida there is a law called the Stop WOKE act. I would submit to you that whatever understanding of "woke" is the motivating principle for that law is more pertinent to any discussion here than your personal definition of "woke."

And also I would just emphasize that the word "tokenism" already describes most of what you said.

My position on this is basically that woke is mostly used incoherently as a synonym for "stuff I don't like". In this broader incoherent sense the term cannot be the basis of any actual insight.
Its only actually coherent definition is the stuff people in this thread are arguing against, and it really is used by reactionaries as a way to encapsulate the social progress made in the 20th century, because they want to go back to the 1880s or even earlier. Anything that seems to threaten this project, whether it's a piece of art with an explicitly political message that doesn't conform to conservative ideology or something that merely offends their sensibilities like a female action protagonist or a movie with many characters of color, or a class in school that honestly talks about the evils in our past (or, you know, just conveys accurate information about gender and sexuality to students) is "woke" and must be destroyed. In this sense "wokeness" is more-or-less identical to the way the term "Jewry" was used by the Nazis in the 20s and 30s, it is just shorthand for everything that fascists believe is unclean and pathogenic in modern life, and so naturally you're going to get spicy reactions to using the word given this context.
 
@Lexicus (EDIT: added that just 'cause I didn't Quote you)
As I said, I hate the term. I don't use it, except I guess when I'm asked about it specifically & the question specifically includes the term. So I'm not in any way about defending the term itself. It's stupid. I try my best not to get sucked into the stuff like you mentioned (& I think you know I am no DeSantis supporter; not implying you said I was, just that... you probably know I know about that "Act" & don't support it, presumably).

But there are certain recent... trends, & tropes (1) in movies & shows, in genres where it doesn't really "belong" that are kinda shoehorned in (tokenism doesn't encapsulate it - I'll grant it's a subset of it), but which can also be quite appealing when used in other genres (2). I find the former makes me simply not enjoy movies/shows where (1) happens, but I certainly don't mind when (2) happens, sometimes quite enjoy them.

I think *that* discussion has merit, if we could just leave that stupid term out of it. I've avoided using it in every post of mine in this thread, except the first, I think? But in scare quotes.
 
I love that we're still talking about postwar hooker dolls as liberation.

Here's what my first Barbie looked like. Her name is Fluff (presumably because of her fluffy blonde hair). She wears ballerina flats for shoes, and came with a skateboard.

fluff-doll.jpg


I still have mine, though she's been damaged over the years of being played with.

Not exactly "German hooker" material, in my view. :huh:

(I don't think this photo is of a first edition, as my doll's skirt is orange, not pink.)

My second Barbie was Talking Christie:

talking-christie.jpg


This isn't quite the same outfit mine had, though the orange shorts are the same. Pull the ring, and she says things like, "Hi! I'm called Christie!" and "I love to try on clothes." and "I want to be a fashion model." and so on. Christie was obsessed with fashion. I still have her, as well, though the talking mechanism doesn't work anymore and she had some rough treatment over the years. Some of the things I put my dolls through... :shake:

I also had Living Francie:

francie-doll.jpg


She came with a variety of things like a suitcase, TV, tray with dishes on it, and I don't recall what else. She had low-heel shoes - between the stiletto heels and the ballerina flats.

Then came Walk Lively Ken:

walk-lively-ken.jpg


There was a wheeled stand to put him in, and when you pushed it, his arms and head would move; this would also happen if you moved his legs like he was walking. I've still got him, too.

Finally, the last of the Barbies I regularly played with, was Quick Curl Kelley:

quick-curl-kelley.jpg


She came with a comb, barrettes, and plastic curling iron-shaped gadget so you could style her hair (it was more bristly than normal Barbie hair so it would hold its shape). I have two of these dolls. One has her hair in braids and the other one has a Farrah Fawcett-type hairstyle (hey, it was the '70s...).

No "German hookers" here. :huh:

Well if it's a love story at its core, why does it need to be a gay love story? It could be a cowboy and a cowgirl instead of two cowboys, why does the plot strictly need them to be gay? Why is it relevant in the case of Brokeback Mountain and not relevant in other cases?

Why shouldn't it be a gay love story? I haven't seen the movie, but whatever... all I ask of movies and stories is that the characters be well-written and that the story makes sense. When it comes to fanfiction and same-sex pairings, keeping the characters in character is also important.

Example: That scene in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban where Sirius Black and Remus Lupin share a brief hug was the catalyst for a huge subgenre of Harry Potter fanfiction that has its own name: Wolfstar. My take on this is that Remus and Tonks had NO chemistry. Tonks was actually a pretty boring character most of the time, so there are very few of those stories I care to read. Whether the story pairs Sirius and Remus with women or with each other, all I ask is consistent, well-written characterization, an engaging story, and that it not just be a too-detailed play-by-play of smut.

So... Brokeback Mountain. Haven't seen it. If it ever turns up on Saturday Night Cinema on PBS, I might.

girl boss thing

What does this even mean?

Would you go see a movie based on a biblical story eg Ten Commandments or Passion of the Christ type movies vs one that was actively preaching to you about biblical themes.

LOL. I haven't seen Passion of the Christ, but I've seen The Ten Commandments... maybe a couple of dozen times? Maybe more. It used to be an annual tradition for my grandmother and me, that on Easter Sunday, ABC would run this movie and she'd let me stay up late to watch it with her.

I've seen it so many times over the years and honestly, the more I watch it, the more preachy it seems, to the point where older Moses is basically a caricature.

It's still a fantastic piece of filmmaking, though. That 'hounds and jackals' game that Nefertiri plays with Pharaoh is like Senet - which is available on Steam, and I enjoy playing it now and then.

Is Barbieland a Utopia or Dystopia. They have a female Mt Rushmire did they genocide the Native Barbie land people?

There are Native American Barbies (though marketed as "Eskimo Barbie"; that's a problem nowadays as 'Eskimo' is considered a slur and the correct term is 'Inuit'). I've got one. No, she did not come with an igloo and sled dog.

A woke reboot doesn't appeal to the original fans or new ones who don't care about the older ones.

Have you read the Villeneuve Dune arguments recently? The new fans are... disrespectful, to put it politely.

Snow White. Who cares about snow White? Fans of classical fairy tales. Reimagining it probably bomb. Coukd be wrong we'll see.

I thought they already did some Snow White remakes? I've only ever seen the Disney cartoon. The Little Golden Book version gave me nightmares when I was about 8.

Mind you, when I was 8, I also thought about how Snow White looked more like a child than a woman, and wondered why the dwarfs were going to make her sleep outside in the forest, and then put her into a crystal coffin where she wouldn't be able to breathe. Addressing these points might make sense to a modern audience.

Is there an opinion on a movie and what it means that isn't subjective?

I don't think so, though the critics and certain emphatic individuals (some on this forum) throw Rotten Tomatoes stats in my face as though that's supposed to validate what is, after all, merely an opinion. It's not like gravity or the Laws of Motion.

I haven't seen it yet but that seems deliberately to get everyone on the internet's panties in a bunch and get them questioning is it really preachy, is it tounge in cheek, what does it all means man?!?

Gone are the days when a movie is just a movie, now everything's gotta be all meta and open to 8000 different interpretations.

The more people talk about something, the more likely they will want to see it.

I remember the hullabaloo over The Last Temptation of Christ, with church groups picketing theatres. I decided to see it for myself, to see what all the fuss was about. Turns out, it wasn't really worth the fuss, and if the picketers had actually watched for themselves, they'd have realized that the "temptation" was successfully resisted, and the ending actually reinforces their beliefs.

Woke is when women

The rest of your sentence appears to be missing.

(then there's also the racist stuff inherent in the world of the Witcher, which begs the question "do we reproduce this stuff faithfully or do we make something that isn't blatantly 'white people only', and see who gets mad")

The Handmaid's Tale showrunner made the decision to have a diverse cast rather than adhere to the blatant racism of the Sons of Jacob.

When it comes to mega-corporations I assume any inclusivity is just a way to increase profits (for example hijab barbie makes sense as it opens their product to a billion new clients). They could gaf about muslims as people. Inclusivity leads to profits, embracing environmentalism means they have to actually be more responsible.

Of course. Mind you, I could easily have my own version of "Hijab Barbie" if I wanted. There are patterns online, I have fabric in my craft collection, plus scissors, needles, thread...

"When a series is made for a huge mass of viewers, with different experiences, from different parts of the world, and a large part of them are Americans, these simplifications not only make sense, they are necessary. It’s painful for us, and for me too, but the higher level of nuance and complexity will have a smaller range, it won’t reach people. Sometimes it may go too far, but we have to make these decisions and accept them." - Tomek Baginski

He's basically claiming that the viewers of a show he co-produces, especially the American viewers, are unable to understand the books, hence the need to simplify and change the source material. Did you hear that gringos, he was actually doing you a favor. :lol:

I've found that when something is dumbed down, it's usually because the showrunner doesn't understand it.

American productions often get dumbed down not do much for Anerican audience but worldwide.

Dialogue heavy films and comedy for example don't translate well as explosions and gun fire.

So Villeneuve, when he dumbed down Dune, did it for worldwide audiences, and not North American audiences? Mind you... Villeneuve has shown multiple times that he doesn't actually understand some parts of Dune anyway.


Whatever this is, it's geoblocked in Canada.
 

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Here's what my first Barbie looked like. Her name is Fluff (presumably because of her fluffy blonde hair). She wears ballerina flats for shoes, and came with a skateboard.

View attachment 669435

I still have mine, though she's been damaged over the years of being played with.

Not exactly "German hooker" material, in my view. :huh:

(I don't think this photo is of a first edition, as my doll's skirt is orange, not pink.)

My second Barbie was Talking Christie:

View attachment 669439

This isn't quite the same outfit mine had, though the orange shorts are the same. Pull the ring, and she says things like, "Hi! I'm called Christie!" and "I love to try on clothes." and "I want to be a fashion model." and so on. Christie was obsessed with fashion. I still have her, as well, though the talking mechanism doesn't work anymore and she had some rough treatment over the years. Some of the things I put my dolls through... :shake:

I also had Living Francie:

View attachment 669441

She came with a variety of things like a suitcase, TV, tray with dishes on it, and I don't recall what else. She had low-heel shoes - between the stiletto heels and the ballerina flats.

Then came Walk Lively Ken:

View attachment 669443

There was a wheeled stand to put him in, and when you pushed it, his arms and head would move; this would also happen if you moved his legs like he was walking. I've still got him, too.

Finally, the last of the Barbies I regularly played with, was Quick Curl Kelley:

View attachment 669444

She came with a comb, barrettes, and plastic curling iron-shaped gadget so you could style her hair (it was more bristly than normal Barbie hair so it would hold its shape). I have two of these dolls. One has her hair in braids and the other one has a Farrah Fawcett-type hairstyle (hey, it was the '70s...).

No "German hookers" here. :huh:



Why shouldn't it be a gay love story? I haven't seen the movie, but whatever... all I ask of movies and stories is that the characters be well-written and that the story makes sense. When it comes to fanfiction and same-sex pairings, keeping the characters in character is also important.

Example: That scene in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban where Sirius Black and Remus Lupin share a brief hug was the catalyst for a huge subgenre of Harry Potter fanfiction that has its own name: Wolfstar. My take on this is that Remus and Tonks had NO chemistry. Tonks was actually a pretty boring character most of the time, so there are very few of those stories I care to read. Whether the story pairs Sirius and Remus with women or with each other, all I ask is consistent, well-written characterization, an engaging story, and that it not just be a too-detailed play-by-play of smut.

So... Brokeback Mountain. Haven't seen it. If it ever turns up on Saturday Night Cinema on PBS, I might.



What does this even mean?



LOL. I haven't seen Passion of the Christ, but I've seen The Ten Commandments... maybe a couple of dozen times? Maybe more. It used to be an annual tradition for my grandmother and me, that on Easter Sunday, ABC would run this movie and she'd let me stay up late to watch it with her.

I've seen it so many times over the years and honestly, the more I watch it, the more preachy it seems, to the point where older Moses is basically a caricature.

It's still a fantastic piece of filmmaking, though. That 'hounds and jackals' game that Nefertiri plays with Pharaoh is like Senet - which is available on Steam, and I enjoy playing it now and then.



There are Native American Barbies (though marketed as "Eskimo Barbie"; that's a problem nowadays as 'Eskimo' is considered a slur and the correct term is 'Inuit'). I've got one. No, she did not come with an igloo and sled dog.



Have you read the Villeneuve Dune arguments recently? The new fans are... disrespectful, to put it politely.



I thought they already did some Snow White remakes? I've only ever seen the Disney cartoon. The Little Golden Book version gave me nightmares when I was about 8.

Mind you, when I was 8, I also thought about how Snow White looked more like a child than a woman, and wondered why the dwarfs were going to make her sleep outside in the forest, and then put her into a crystal coffin where she wouldn't be able to breathe. Addressing these points might make sense to a modern audience.



I don't think so, though the critics and certain emphatic individuals (some on this forum) throw Rotten Tomatoes stats in my face as though that's supposed to validate what is, after all, merely an opinion. It's not like gravity or the Laws of Motion.



The more people talk about something, the more likely they will want to see it.

I remember the hullabaloo over The Last Temptation of Christ, with church groups picketing theatres. I decided to see it for myself, to see what all the fuss was about. Turns out, it wasn't really worth the fuss, and if the picketers had actually watched for themselves, they'd have realized that the "temptation" was successfully resisted, and the ending actually reinforces their beliefs.



The rest of your sentence appears to be missing.



The Handmaid's Tale showrunner made the decision to have a diverse cast rather than adhere to the blatant racism of the Sons of Jacob.



Of course. Mind you, I could easily have my own version of "Hijab Barbie" if I wanted. There are patterns online, I have fabric in my craft collection, plus scissors, needles, thread...



I've found that when something is dumbed down, it's usually because the showrunner doesn't understand it.



So Villeneuve, when he dumbed down Dune, did it for worldwide audiences, and not North American audiences? Mind you... Villeneuve has shown multiple times that he doesn't actually understand some parts of Dune anyway.



Whatever this is, it's geoblocked in Canada.

Girl boss trope is kind of like Mary Sue but power levels amped up to 11. Often with very little explanation.

Rey in Star Wars maybe one (cf Ahsoka who isnt), recent Marvel show where they gave a female character the special abilities of multiple super heroes.

Normally badly written duper powerful boss type who's better than everyone else and can easily throw males around as well.

Doesn't apply o powerful female antagonists as such more the eye rolling ones along with "here we go again".

By comparison Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 isn't one or the Protagonist in Prey (new predator film) and most of the female Jedi force users in Clone Wars and new Disney shows.
 
And also I would just emphasize that the word "tokenism" already describes most of what you said.
It doesn’t encapsulates an aggressive push for diversity, equity, inclusion, usually based on the belief that outcomes which lack these things are indicative of discrimination and/or unfair social treatment. In a nutshell, an aggressive push for social justice agendas that are used as a bludgeon to hit over people's heads. As Rob said, it doesn't encapsulates the trends that has been happening in the past decade where progressive and/or leftists agendas and ideals are being shoehorned in and used as a bludgeon over the audience's head. I know BreadTubers poke fun at conservatives saying that franchises like Metal Gear and Fallout are non-woke, But here's the thing the messaging is subtle and not all in your face and doesn't use this decade's politics as a crutch and still lets the audience have a moment to be away from present day politics (Which most present day games sorely lack).
My position on this is basically that woke is mostly used incoherently as a synonym for "stuff I don't like". In this broader incoherent sense the term cannot be the basis of any actual insight.
I’d argue “fascist” and "Nazi" is mostly used incoherently and pejoratively as a synonym for “thing or person I do not like”.
Its only actually coherent definition is the stuff people in this thread are arguing against, and it really is used by reactionaries as a way to encapsulate the social progress made in the 20th century, because they want to go back to the 1880s or even earlier. Anything that seems to threaten this project, whether it's a piece of art with an explicitly political message that doesn't conform to conservative ideology or something that merely offends their sensibilities like a female action protagonist or a movie with many characters of color,
Is this said female action protagonist well written and not a girl boss misandrist? Are non-white characters well written and interesting? Or are they just added in just to boost ESG scores, earn brownie points on Twitter and Tumblir, and/or to appease the company's HR department?
or a class in school that honestly talks about the evils in our past (or, you know, just conveys accurate information about gender and sexuality to students) is "woke" and must be destroyed.
Do these classes, when they involve talking about the evils in our past, put all the blame and burden on white students? Are white students made to go through a struggle session to atone for slavery when they weren't even born in that era nor had any ancestors related to said slave owner? I am not against a history class that talks about the evils of the past, What I am against is using that history as a justification to punish and blame students on the basis of their demographics that places them on the "oppressor" side and the "sins of our father" nonsense that would make Kim Jong-il smile.
In this sense "wokeness" is more-or-less identical to the way the term "Jewry" was used by the Nazis in the 20s and 30s, it is just shorthand for everything that fascists believe is unclean and pathogenic in modern life, and so naturally you're going to get spicy reactions to using the word given this context.
Hello reductio ad Hitlerum, I see Godwyn’s Law is well alive in 2023.
 
Do these classes, when they involve talking about the evils in our past, put all the blame and burden on white students? Are white students made to go through a struggle session to atone for slavery when they weren't even born in that era nor had any ancestors related to said slave owner? I am not against a history class that talks about the evils of the past, What I am against is using that history as a justification to punish and blame students on the basis of their demographics that places them on the "oppressor" side and the "sins of our father" nonsense

I know I'm fed up with being referred to as a "colonizer" or a "settler." I was born here. I didn't have a choice. Neither did my parents. The only one of my grandparents who had a choice of whether or not to come to Canada and become a farmer was my grandfather. Even my grandmother (dad's mother) was born here. If the indigenous want to scream at my family for being "settlers" they can go find my great-grandparents' graves (wherever they are; I have no idea) and scream at them. They were here early enough to be called homesteaders. That was well over a century ago.

I did not start or contribute to the residential schools. There's nothing I could have done to stop them or shut them down. There are some things that Canadian kids weren't even taught in school (ie. the Sixties Scoop, where government workers literally stole indigenous kids from their homes and sold them in shady adoptions to people in the U.S. and Europe).

So don't blame me. But please do approve of the possibility that one reason why I was banned from my own MLA's FB page was likely because I outed her for saying (when she was on the Catholic school board in 2015 before going into provincial politics) that she wanted Catholic teachers to 'teach positive things' about residential schools. That's something the UCP and their sycophants would prefer to remain buried.
 
*sigh* this is kinda what I meant by my post above. I know we are egregiously off-topic for this this thread (which involves a discussion I find quite worthwhile & interesting, so maybe it could be split out & allowed to continue? Red Diamond, maybe?), but now we have all this. Not saying I agree or disagree with any of the above, but, well, it's a Barbie thread & we have been dangerously teetering on the edge for a while now I think. Let's not tip it over the edge, maybe?
 
ok so I could dig down and go line by line on this, but I kind of feel like that won’t really move anything, so instead let’s try this:

Let’s say for the sake of argument, that woke is as defined here: a piece of media in which a character’s identity is aggressively shoehorned into their plot or characterization, such that it detracts from telling a good story or more nuanced complex characters.

If this same scenario happened in a movie, let’s say Rey or whomever, who is an arch Mary Sue - preternaturally gifted at everything she does, always praised, rah rah girl power, whatever - is instead played by a man. So the media is all about how much of a badass he is, rah rah masculinity is a superpower, whatever. Like a dudes rock movie. But not good, really over the top, very bland, the characters just yell about how much they need to protect their bros and their homes all day or whatever.

Would this white dudes rock movie be considered woke media?
 
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Honestly? Probably not. At least it wouldn't get labelled that way. That's fair.

But it would receive the same criticism for poor story-telling. I think the actual issues though, in relation to this discussion, are 1) that never happens to a boy character, 2) the only reason the "Rey effect" happened is because: girls can no longer struggle, or need a mentor, or need help from anyone, much less a man, so Rey is a bit unique in that aspect, a pioneer even, 3) any criticism of the actual Rey gets dismissed as sexism.
 
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@Lexicus (EDIT: added that just 'cause I didn't Quote you)
As I said, I hate the term. I don't use it, except I guess when I'm asked about it specifically & the question specifically includes the term. So I'm not in any way about defending the term itself. It's stupid. I try my best not to get sucked into the stuff like you mentioned (& I think you know I am no DeSantis supporter; not implying you said I was, just that... you probably know I know about that "Act" & don't support it, presumably).

But there are certain recent... trends, & tropes (1) in movies & shows, in genres where it doesn't really "belong" that are kinda shoehorned in (tokenism doesn't encapsulate it - I'll grant it's a subset of it), but which can also be quite appealing when used in other genres (2). I find the former makes me simply not enjoy movies/shows where (1) happens, but I certainly don't mind when (2) happens, sometimes quite enjoy them.

I think *that* discussion has merit, if we could just leave that stupid term out of it. I've avoided using it in every post of mine in this thread, except the first, I think? But in scare quotes.
What you don't seem to get is it really doesn't matter what you think. What you can bring up on this topic is merely academic. You might see it as legitimate topic for discussion on an internet forum, but it's completely irrelevant to those who end up, one way or another, targeted by ideologies that promote 'wokeness' as a negative thing.

Your being indignant and pissy that 'woke' has been explained on this forum in a particular way has no impact on the real world situation and therefore comes across as petulant and disingenuously insisting on a red herring.
 
@GenMarshall, fwiw, I don't think your post above is helpful in explaining - it's too antagonistic to be persuasive - JMO though
I’m sort of at my wits end when explaining and giving a definition to the term woke and it’s derivatives. Only to be given bad faith responses and enough strawmen to keep me warm for the winter from leftists and/or progressives since the definition given goes against their narrative.

ok so I could dig down and go line by line on this, but I kind of feel like that won’t really move anything, so instead let’s try this:

Let’s say for the sake of argument, that woke is as defined here: a piece of media in which a character’s identity is aggressively shoehorned into their plot or characterization, such that it detracts from telling a good story or more nuanced complex characters.

If this same scenario happened in a movie, let’s say Rey or whomever, who is an arch Mary Sue - preternaturally gifted at everything she does, always praised, rah rah girl power, whatever - is instead played by a man. So the media is all about how much of a badass he is, rah rah masculinity is a superpower, whatever. Like a dudes rock movie. But not good, really over the top, very bland, the characters just yell about how much they need to protect their bros and their homes all day or whatever.

Would this white dudes rock movie be considered woke media?
I’d wouldn’t be labeled as woke garbage. Yet it would still revive the same criticism of poor writing (In this case, the character in question would be a Marty Stu, same concept for Mary Sue but applied to male characters) and comparisons to a Rambo movie.

Unfortunately, as Rob pointed out, any criticisms on Rey ultimately gets dismissed as sexism.
 
What you don't seem to get is it really doesn't matter what you think. What you can bring up on this topic is merely academic. You might see it as legitimate topic for discussion on an internet forum, but it's completely irrelevant to those who end up, one way or another, targeted by ideologies that promote 'wokeness' as a negative thing.
Well then why are any of us here? Why are we discussing this even? Why do we discuss anything on this forum? Politics, Economy, the Ukraine War? Why bother if it's irrelevant when "we" discuss it here among ourselves?
Your being indignant and pissy that 'woke' has been explained on this forum in a particular way has no impact on the real world situation and therefore comes across as petulant and disingenuously insisting on a red herring.
I mean, is this comment really necessary?
 
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