What leaders and/or nations do you want in Civilization VII?

[Patine]

I mean they used the name Indonesia to describe essentially the Majapahit Empire the last two iterations.

And that, too, was weird and jarring.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

And that, too, was weird and jarring.

So call it Majapahit!

 

[Patine]

So call it Majapahit!

They should have, definitely. And, It's likely the people in three-quarters of the land area of Modern Indonesia would have preferred they did. But, for some reason, they didn't. And now it seems to be used as a validation for other, similar, bad naming of civ's.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But, for some reason, they didn't. And now it seems to be used as a validation for other, similar, bad naming of civ's.

I'm pretty sure originally they were going to in Civ 5. However not all the developers even knew who they were, so they went with the more familiar name of the modern country.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

They should have, definitely. And, It's likely the people in three-quarters of the land area of Modern Indonesia would have preferred they did. But, for some reason, they didn't. And now it seems to be used as a validation for other, similar, bad naming of civ's.

I thought it was because the marketing department felt that the people in an 88% Muslim country would identify more with the name of the Muslim-majority state than with that of a Hindu kingdom.

 

[Patine]

I thought it was because the marketing department felt that the people in an 88% Muslim country would identify more with the name of the Muslim-majority state than with that of a Hindu kingdom.

If you read my post, it wasn't just a matter of religion, I was referring. In fact, I wasn't referring to it, at all.

 

[Krajzen]

Modern day political entities and names will always dominate over ancient naming in disputes like this whenever possible, simply because IMO people of Indonesia and Philippines as a whole more likely identify themselves with "Indonesia" and "Philippines", instead of ancient long gone kingdoms, selective regional and cultural groupings, artificial "postcolonial" entities purged from any traces of foreign influence etc.

You pick "Javanese" or "Tagalog" culture - great it doesn't include anyone else and it opens Pandora's box to a ton of other problems (what leader was ethnically Tagalog and who wasn't? good luck). You pick Majapahit, well it is more abstract and ancient than just plain "Indonesia" and people of many regions aren't part of it (besides it being Hindu civilization). You invent some fancy non-western name, well it's a risky game to play when you are not Indonesian/Filipino yourself and you play the role of a foreign savior when they didn't ask for this. If they wanted name change, they'd do it themselves over decades of independence and their own nationalist movements.

I strongly suspect that the vast majority of Filipino people don't care at all being named like that, because people in general don't think about names and etymologies at all. Omg Venezuela is named after Venice, Colombia after infamous Columbus, and Madagascar is confused messed up 'Mogadishu' (seriously), Firaxis needs to rename it all!
No they don't, it's will of those people to do that. By this logic you shouldn't depict Filipinos as Catholic either, which would be very fast way to anger them.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

If you read my post, it wasn't just a matter of religion, I was referring. In fact, I wasn't referring to it, at all.

I wasn't referring to your post. I was merely expressing my speculations on why someone at Firaxis decided to call the civilization 'Indonesia' instead of 'Majapahit'.

 

[HktkNban]

If "Majapahit" should be "Indonesia", then "Aztec" should be renamed "Mexico", and "Byzantine" / "Ottoman" should be "Turkiye".
Perhaps the development team was not familiar with the history of Southeast Asia, so they turned Majapahit into Indonesia.
Since Firaxis is an American company, it is no wonder they are ignorant of the history of non-Anglo-Saxon countries.

 

[Krajzen]

If "Majapahit" should be "Indonesia", then "Aztec" should be renamed "Mexico", and "Byzantine" / "Ottoman" should be "Turkiye".
Perhaps the development team was not familiar with the history of Southeast Asia, so they turned Majapahit into Indonesia.
Since Firaxis is an American company, it is no wonder they are ignorant of the history of non-Anglo-Saxon countries.

Indonesia and Mexico are not historical countries?

Also, "Indonesia" in civ6 and civ5 is simply not reducible to Majapahit. Rulers in both games are Majapahit rulers, but neither Jung Ship, nor Kampung, Kris Swordmen or Candi are Majapahit - specific uniques, and neither is city list. The name is correct - it is broad umbrella civ combining different civs from the area of modern Indonesia, not Majapahit.

Of course some people may complain about this, how hurr civs should durr be entirely based about one era only, although I completely disagree with that and I prefer civs (my own Poland included) to mix all eras at once, bc we don't have space to have 5 separate Polands for 5 separate eras. But your basic premise about civ6 and civ5 depicting "Majapahit" is simply wrong - it is the same anachronistic mix of elements as all civs in the game, Western and non - Western alike.

 

[HktkNban]

Also, "Indonesia" in civ6 and civ5 is simply not reducible to Majapahit. Rulers in both games are Majapahit rulers, but neither Jung Ship, nor Kampung, Kris Swordmen or Candi are Majapahit - specific uniques, and neither is city list. The name is correct - it is broad umbrella civ combining different civs from the area of modern Indonesia, not Majapahit.

I see. If we look at "Indonesia" as a civilization (a continuous sociocultural system from ancient times to the present) rather than as an empire/kingdom (a nation that existed only for a limited period of time), then it would certainly be more appropriate to call it "Indonesia" than "Majapahit".

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Also, "Indonesia" in civ6 and civ5 is simply not reducible to Majapahit. Rulers in both games are Majapahit rulers, but neither Jung Ship, nor Kampung, Kris Swordmen or Candi are Majapahit - specific uniques, and neither is city list. The name is correct - it is broad umbrella civ combining different civs from the area of modern Indonesia, not Majapahit.

Are not most of these uniques specifically Javanese though, at least in origin, except the Kampung? I don't see why at least the name Javanese could work. Though I guess calling the civ Javanese would still limit the city list and wouldn't include a multitude of cities on other islands like Sumatra and Bali etc.

 

[pineappledan]

Could take the culture and leader/empire split more seriously and have “Malay” as the civilization and pick Majapahit as the empire.

Malay or Malayan is more recognizable than Majapahit, and encompasses Philippines, Brunei, Indonesia, Peninsular Malaysia, and to a lesser extent Singapore.

Pick a UU and UB that is specific to the empire, and one that is more tied to the wider culture. Eg. Malays could get the Kampung UI and a Rentaka cannon UU or a Pesilat swordsman with a Kris. Majapahit could get a Cetbang cannon UU or a Djong boat. Philippines could get a Balangay unique naval settler unit, or a Palengke market, and a Katipunero infantry unit, or could go with Madha-as with a unique karakoa boat

 

[pokiehl]

Of course some people may complain about this, how hurr civs should durr be entirely based about one era only,

Although I don't think I'm a hurr-durr type person in particular, I am in favor of civs being designed around one era. But I agree with the rest of your post that with the current way civs are designed, and the implemention of Indonesia in Civ 6 specifically, that a narrower name like "Majapahit" doesn't make sense.

 

[FishFishFish]

Could take the culture and leader/empire split more seriously and have “Malay” as the civilization and pick Majapahit as the empire.

Malay or Malayan is more recognizable than Majapahit, and encompasses Philippines, Brunei, Indonesia, Peninsular Malaysia, and to a lesser extent Singapore.

But the ethnic group that founded Majapahit was not Malays, they were Javanese.

Malays only make up about 3% of Indonesia's population. The Malays would only really encompass Malaysia, Brunei and the indigenous population of Singapore.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But the ethnic group that founded Majapahit was not Malay, they were Javanese.

Malays only make up about 3% of Indonesia's population. The Malays would only really encompass Malaysia, Brunei and the indigenous population of Singapore.

I'm pretty sure they meant the Malay language, which is what Javanese is sort of derived from. At least from their other posts, language diversity is how they prioritize civ inclusions.
Regardless, I agree that calling a civ Malay is too broad and encompasses many different groups. I'd much rather call the civ Javanese if the name Indonesia is too modern, and Majapahit is too limiting.

 

[pineappledan]

You are correct that the Malay ethnicity is different from the Javanese ethnicity, but that's not the meaning I was invoking. Malay is both a geographic and linguistic grouping, in addition to the ethnic group. It's confusing. That part of the world is known as the Malay Archipelago, Nusantara, or Insulindia. It's also a broader racial category, though that has since been discarded in favor of Austronesian, which includes Polynesian cultures in its umbrella. When I asked a Singaporean friend about the use of 'Nusantaran' instead, her response was that prioritizes Javanese people and culture above the others in a way that 'Malay' or 'Insulindia' does not, because those terms' colonial origins do not feed into the region's modern racial politics.

I think the Polynesian cultures stand enough on their own w.r.t. geography, history, and material culture that they could be pinched off as their own civ, even though that doesn't hold up to modern ethnography or linguistics. That necessitates using a deprecated term like "Malay" to mean people of Maritime Southeast Asia.

 

[FishFishFish]

- I might be missing something, but I am a bit confused where people are getting the idea that Malay refers to a broad grouping which covers all of these languages. As far as I am aware, Javanese and the Malay language are only connected by the "Malayo-Polynesian languages" subgroup of the Austronesian languages. Malayic languages split off into their own branch of the Malayo-Polynesian subgroup afterwards. ("Hesperonesian languages" or "Western Malayo-Polynesian languages" are obsolete terms.)

- I find it strange to name the Civ "Malay" just because the Archipelago is called the "Malay Archipelago".

- Malay as a racial group seems to stem from enlightenment-era ideas of biological racism. I would prefer to avoid that.

When I asked a Singaporean friend about the use of 'Nusantaran' instead, her response was that prioritizes Javanese people and culture above the others in a way that 'Malay' or 'Insulindia' does not, because those terms' colonial origins do not feed into the region's modern racial politics.

Wouldn't the inverse also be true? Doesn't "Malay" also prioritize Malays above the rest?

 

[pokiehl]

- I find it strange to name the Civ "Malay" just because the Archipelago is called the "Malay Archipelago".

Yeah I'm not understanding the reasoning for using it. At some point, unorthodox nomenclature defeats the entire purpose of immediate recognizability and raises more questions than it answers.

 

[pineappledan]

Wouldn't the inverse also be true? Doesn't "Malay" also prioritize Malays above the rest?

Fun fact! The Philippines almost changed its name to Malaysia in 1962, but the modern nation that is now Malaysia adopted that name while the Philippines congress was in session, deliberating the name change. If you asked most Indonesians, including Javanese, if they are Malay, most would say yes.

The strict, academic, racial categorization which uses that term doesn't carry much weight to the people it is applied to. The term "Malay" is more often used as a name for people of that region than this use as a rigid ethnic label. Malay is a cultural, linguistic and regional term, and it's somewhat amorphous because of that, which makes it very useful as a name for a civ.