[Complex] (7-NS) Alternative Carthage adjustments

[Legen]

Counterproposal to (7-30) Polynesia UA and Carthage UA+UB rework

Also conflicts with proposal (7-30a) Carthage and Polynesia UA reworks.

Previously contained part of counterproposal (7-30e) Polynesia adjustments.

Spoiler Current Carthage UA :

UA (Phoenician Heritage)
+125 Gold when founding Cities, scaling with Era. Owned Coastal Cities receive a Free Lighthouse. Trade Route Resource Diversity modifier doubled.

Proposal

• Carthage's UA has the " Trade Route Resource Diversity modifier doubled" replaced by "+200% Gold from City Connections".
• Carthage's UA gains "Military Units can move immediately after purchase and Naval Melee Units start with the Reconnaissance Promotion."
  • (Info) Reconnaissance: Gain XP when revealing tiles.

Spoiler How the UA will look like, changes underlined or in strike-through :

UA (Phoenician Heritage)
+125 Gold when founding Cities, scaling with Era. +200% Gold from City Connections and owned Coastal Cities receive a Free Lighthouse. Military Units can move immediately after purchase and Naval Melee Units start with the Reconnaissance Promotion.

Rationale
Carthage was historically known for establishing a coastal overseas empire to expand their trade network, rarely settling further inland, and the civ's current UA captures that disposition with the Lighthouse part; I'm strongly against changing that. Instead, we can emphasize their historical disposition by pushing those immediate City Connections even further. This proposal does so in place of the current Resource Diversity modifier because Carthage doesn't have any particular interaction with Monopolies, Luxuries or Strategic resources; better leave it for a civ that does, such as Netherlands, Russia or Indonesia. Replacing it lets us propose a large modifier for the City Connections, instead of a timid one.

The ability to move military units immediately after purchase is meant to capture their historical reliance on mercenaries, and is in line with the civ's focus on both Gold and speed. And alongside it, the addition of Reconnaissance for Naval Melee units is meant to revitalize a particular play that Carthage had when their UU still had Reconnaissance and was unlocked at Fishing; they could buy a naval unit to scout the coastline and end with an experienced naval unit in the process, helping them quickly find good places to settle and new potential trade partners (both City States and major civs).


Amendment 1:

• Polynesia's UA: Atolls back to providing Food, rather than Culture, to prevent potential turn 1 snowball issues.
• Carthage's UA: Free Navigator I on Naval Melee removed. New effect: "Military Units can move immediately after purchase" proposed.
• Rationale adjusted accordingly.

Amendment 2:

• Polynesia changes removed from this counterproposal, and are now part of counterproposal (7-30e) Polynesia adjustments. Title adjusted accordingly.

Amendment 3:

• Removed change to Great Cothon's City Connections modifier, as the building it replaces, East India Company, also has this effect; the removal was due to older versions of the latter not stating this effect, which made me think that the modifier on the Great Cothon was an addition to it.

MAGI: Complex proposal, DLL and database changes

 

[hokath]

All reasonable suggestions.
+200% (triple) City connections might be the right number, unclear.
I attach Vern's recent AI graph for reference

Spoiler :

 

[rkkn]

these are big buffs
I like this direction a lot more, but I worry that it might be too much power

 

[pineappledan]

On Polynesia's current winrate, this could be a consequence of cultural victories being harder after multiple VP Congress proposals tried to tone CVs down; there are a good number of other cultural civs that have lower winrates since patch 2.7 as well, such as Brazil, Arabia and Egypt.

Even when CV's were the dominant victory type, Polynesia never went above the midline for winrates. Even when CV was too good, wide CV with tiles was never viable.

If you look at Polynesia's placements, they have stubbornly stayed at below average no matter what has been happening with other cultural civs.

And in particular, the only reason why the current bonus to Fishing Boats and Atolls gives 2 Food, instead of the original 2 Culture when it was part of Japan's UA, is because Polynesia was considered overpowered at the time. Now that this civ needs help, it should be ok for it to give Culture instead.

The reason it was changed from culture is that any potential source of turn 1 culture is uncontrollable snowball. You will create a situation where Polynesia players seed-scum until they start near a workable atoll.

The addition of two promotions for Naval Melee units is meant to revitalize a particular play that Carthage had when their UU still had Reconnaissance and was unlocked at Fishing; they could buy a 4 Movement naval unit (the Galley has only 3 Movement) to scout the coastline and end with an experienced naval unit in the process. If you picked the Navigator promotion line, you could sometimes end exploring places inaccessible to most other civs. These promotions also reinforce the Phoenician renown for superb seamanship and shipbuilding, an aspect that the other proposals so far tend to de-emphasize.

Giving Carthage both extra vision and extra movement on naval units creates direct overlaps with both England and Polynesia. You also are proposing to give Carthage’s units immediate access to Navigator 2, so that +2 move and vision for all naval melee units once they move for 2 turns, or with a barracks. AND reconnaissance on top of that. That’s insane. Like completely, certifiably insane.

 

[hokath]

You notice when you play England that the extra movement has an important military application with early boats: being able to siege a city from out of range like a skirmisher.
Edit: So Navigator 1 is a big deal. Navigator 1 to naval melee is functionally quite a big difference.
Also, does Great Lighthouse give its own promotion now, or is it Navigator 1?

 

[pineappledan]

Great Lighthouse gives Navigator II for free. It specifically gives the end promotion so that it does NOT immediately unlock access to the same promotion at double power.

... because that would be nuts.

 

[ma_kuh]

For what it's worth the proposal is that naval melee gets the free Navigator, not ranged.

 

[rkkn]

The reason it was changed from culture is that any potential source of turn 1 culture is uncontrollable snowball. You will create a situation where Polynesia players seed-scum until they start near a workable atoll.

what if it were gated behind the fishing tech?

 

[Legen]

Even when CV's were the dominant victory type, Polynesia never went above the midline for winrates. Even when CV was too good, wide CV with tiles was never viable.

If you look at Polynesia's placements, they have stubbornly stayed at below average no matter what has been happening with other cultural civs.

I never stated that Polynesia was average or strong, just that they suffered from the proposals that targeted CV.

The reason it was changed from culture is that any potential source of turn 1 culture is uncontrollable snowball. You will create a situation where Polynesia players seed-scum until they start near a workable atoll.

No, it was because Polynesia was really seen as overpowered at the time. The Moai gained Production from adjacency, and people were asking for nerfs; part of what made the ability's move from Japan to Polynesia acceptable at the time was that the +2 Culture would be changed to Food, in addition to the Moai getting some nerfs. Here's an example from when the move was being discussed:

Seriously, try the current Moai. They're the most broken thing in the game now no contest, a thing with this sort of power should be mid-classical at the very least. They should, at the very least, be only getting +1C +1P for 2 adjacent Moais, not for 1, and from Fish they should get at most +1/2 Food. No Culture of any sort, that'd be too much coupled with Moai as it is I think.

That said, I'm ok with your concern. Maybe we can have "+2 Food on Atolls, +2 Culture on Fishing Boats"? The latter isn't possible on turn 1, so there's at least some delay.

Giving Carthage both extra vision and extra movement on naval units creates direct overlaps with both England and Polynesia. You also are proposing to give Carthage’s units immediate access to Navigator 2, so that +2 move and vision for all naval melee units once they move for 2 turns, or with a barracks. AND reconnaissance on top of that. That’s insane. Like completely, certifiably insane.

Carthage was always able to do that with the Quinquerreme prior to the early naval rework, get a 6 move ship in Ancient Era (Galley can only have 5 ) and more. If you think this is all new and insane, you haven't explored Carthage enough in all these years. It's also why the UU's move from Fishing to Philosophy was overall quite a nerf to the civ, they lost some unique and powerful plays like this one.

Also, England only gives Movement, not Sight. Polynesia's ability is specific to embarked units, it doesn't cover ships.

 

[pineappledan]

I never stated that Polynesia was average or strong, just that they suffered from the proposals that targeted CV.

And what I am saying is that Polynesia was functionally detached from the CV statistics, because their core strategy of wide, tile-based culture/tourism never showed results.

Carthage was always able to do that with the Quinquerreme prior to the early naval rework, get a 6 move ship in Ancient Era (Galley can only have 5 ) and more. If you think this is all new and insane, you haven't explored Carthage enough in all these years. It's also why the UU's move from Fishing to Philosophy was overall quite a nerf to the civ, they lost some unique and powerful plays like this one as a result.

With the old quinq, you needed to reach level 4 to get Navigator II, 60 XP. You are proposing to make that available at lvl 2, 10 XP. Low enough to be available immediately upon training with a barracks. You're also proposing to make this non-obsoleting, so it's not just the Quinqs early game, it's navigator 2 on all naval melee units for the entire game.

Also, also, you are proposing an anti-synergy with the Great Lighthouse, as mentioned by Hokath. Giving access to navigator 2 for cheap-as-dirt XP cost when a wonder also gives that promotion.

You don't need to cast aspersions at my experience or game knowledge. You're obfuscating the basic facts of how much XP is entailed here.

 

[hokath]

For what it's worth the proposal is that naval melee gets the free Navigator, not ranged.

Right, I meant to say that the overlap with the England UA is not so large because of this difference.

 

[Legen]

And what I am saying is that Polynesia was functionally detached from the CV statistics, because their core strategy of wide, tile-based culture/tourism never showed results.

They were at 0.12 winrate back at 2.7, so they could work properly; they abruptly fell after that. And it doesn't change that Kamehameha's primary victory is cultural, they could get some help in this area.

With the old quinq, you needed to reach level 4 to get Navigator II, 60 XP. You are proposing to make that available at lvl 2, 10 XP. Low enough to be available immediately upon training with a barracks. You're also proposing to make this non-obsoleting, so it's not just the Quinqs early game, it's navigator 2 on all naval units for the entire game.

You don't need to cast aspersions at my experience or game knowledge. You're obfuscating the basic facts of how much XP is entailed here.

Sorry if it was snarky. Ultimately, the issue is that the Galley is a slow ship, which limits how much we can replicate the former early exploration that Carthage had before the early naval rework. Instead of trying to address it with the UA, maybe I could just make a separate proposal to increase the galley's movement to 4, and tone down the Navigator to something else, if at all.

However, I do think that the UA should provide something to speed up the early exploration, in case the Galley remains at 3 Movement. One alternative effect I have in mind for Carthage is to give them a "Military Units can move immediately after purchase" in place of the Navigator promotion, just like the ones from Authority's finisher. This would fit their historical tendency to rely on mercenaries, complement their Gold related abilities, and give some help with early exploration, even if just for one turn; in fact, I'm leaning towards that, as it would be quite unique and thematic for this civ. Any opinions?

 

[pineappledan]

One alternative effect I have in mind for Carthage is to give them a "Military Units can move immediately after purchase" in place of the Navigator promotion, just like the ones from Authority's finisher. This would fit their historical tendency to rely on mercenaries, complement their Gold related abilities, and give some help with early exploration, even if just for one turn; in fact, I'm leaning towards that, as it would be quite unique and thematic for this civ. Any opinions?

As of writing I just updated my own OP 15 minutes ago with a proposal to give Carthaginian purchased units bonus XP, so I would say we are exactly on the same page.

 

[Legen]

As of writing I just updated my own OP 20 minutes ago with a proposal to give Carthaginian purchased units bonus XP, so I would say we are exactly on the same page.

Yeah, I just saw that. An ability from 34UC, iirc.

My idea focus on speed, since that's what Carthage is about currently, and I want to keep them that way. I'll update my proposal.

 

[Legen]

Amendment 1:

• Polynesia's UA: Atolls back to providing Food, rather than Culture, to prevent potential turn 1 snowball issues.
• Carthage's UA: Free Navigator I on Naval Melee removed. New effect: "Military Units can move immediately after purchase" proposed.
• Rationale adjusted accordingly.

 

[pineappledan]

Where I am at is that we have two naval civs that are both going for a coastal settlement playstyle, and I don't think we need two civs doing that.

Polynesia currently can embark and scout immediately, and can settle anywhere with no isolation penalty.
Carthage can't get going as fast, but she gets a powerful early economic engine, and free connections on coastal cities.

Free connections and no isolation overlap significantly. As we can see from the graphs made by @L. Vern and posted by @hokath above, the gold from city connections is immaterial, and the happiness bonus is the main concern (until augmented by policies); the two bonuses are re-wordings of each other, in practice.

Polynesia, with their UI game and coast-maxing creating a unique land management mini-game, is the more interactive of the two, and his kit feels more visible, permanent, and relevant throughout the game. Meanwhile, Carthage is a pure tempo civ, whose only permanent bonuses right now are more gold on TRs and 2 extra trade slots. The rest of her strategy is coasting off an early lead from strong initial bonuses.

Of the two, Polynesia's early settle bonuses convert into a more engaging mid-game that still feels unique. If we're going to have a civ centered around naval exploration and settlement, Polynesia is my preferred choice.
Consolidating the free lighthouse onto Kamehameha makes better historicity for both civs. On Polynesia, the Lighthouse becomes incorporated into the cultural practice of Wayfinding, which explodes the need for Polynesia to build lighthouses in the first place because they already have different ways of navigating to shore. The historical justification for Carthage having that bonus is that .... actually it used to be a free harbor which made more sense because Phoenicians would settle new colonies based on the quality of their natural harbors, but then the city connections were moved to lighthouses so we had to move that on Carthage too. Carthage's justification for having that bonus is a video game reason, not a history reason.
Moving the lighthouse onto Polynesia also removes a piece of jank in their current kit, which is that they are incentivized to settle inland on islands to free up 1 more moai spot. Their cities can be inland and still give the adjacency bonus to nearby moai, and even if they settle on an island too small to support another city, they never need to worry about connecting it because of their isolation removal.

Instead of focusing on a video-gamey bonus as the non-negotiable thing to portray about Carthage, there are lots of other things about the Phoenicians/Carthaginians that we could portray instead. For instance:
Their technological prowess; why does their kit have no science?
Their dependence on mercenaries; Why are their military bonuses restricted to a single UU, something even the most peaceful civs have?
Their incredible voyages of discovery; why do they have no GAdmiral synergies?
Their control of, and in some cases whole-cloth invention of, multiple commodity markets at the peak of their power, like the trade of lumber, tin, wine, Tyrian purple, and glass; why do they have no interactions with resources?

 

[Legen]

Naval civs naturally lean towards coastal settlement, that's not really an issue. Moreover, both were historically notoriously oriented towards settling near the coast; Carthage took a really long time to even expand around the capital itself due to how much they focused on colonizing the African and Iberian coast to expand their trade network. And the two civs also focus on very different yields; Carthage is a trade/economy oriented civ, Polynesia is a cultural civ. They have very different priorities regarding buildings, social policies (e.g. Statecraft vs Artistry), World Congress and so on. Were they both filling the same niche (trade or cultural), then we would have more to argue about a need to differentiate them.

If the gold from City Connections is immaterial and what matters is the happiness part, then why bother try to give Lighthouses to Polynesia when they already don't suffer from Isolation? Carthage is actually oriented towards gold generation, and a big modifier for City Connections make a lot of sense for them. Each citizen on a connected city adds a base 0.5 Gold, the proposed +200% modifier means each citizen adds 1.5 Gold instead. Having essentially a free Market every 3 Citizens from this modifier is not immaterial in any way, especially in the first two eras. And iirc, the Capital's population normally adds 0.06 Gold to every the city connection, which the +200% modifier would raise to 0.18; every roughly 5 Citizens in Carthage would add another 1 Gold in every other city. Such ability would makes more sense on an economic civ than on a cultural civ.

Which one is more engaging will depend on your personal preferences. For instance, Carthage naturally leans towards Statecraft due to this tree boosting international trade routes, which Carthage gets more of, while Polynesia leans towards Artistry due to the culture modifiers and the Heritage policy (tourism from culture on tiles). Those that enjoy a diplo or builder gameplay will find Carthage to be more engaging than Polynesia. And some people prefer an explosive start over a delayed benefit.

I also don't see how Polynesia having free lighthouses is not gamey, but Carthage having them is, given that Carthage was a commercial empire reliant on seaborn trade. City Connections aren't merely about a city maintaining communication with the Capital, it represents trade; in fact, Vanilla and G&K called them as Trade Routes. There's a reason why City Connections provide Gold, and it fits Carthage much better than Polynesia.

 

[Tekamthi]

I also don't see how Polynesia having free lighthouses is not gamey

this is how it strikes me too, at least superficially

On Polynesia, the Lighthouse becomes incorporated into the cultural practice of Wayfinding, which explodes the need for Polynesia to build lighthouses in the first place because they already have different ways of navigating to shore.

This makes a lot of sense, your logic is entirely sound -- but its like logic-over-lore -- I think I represent a common perspective here, in that when I see a UA with "free building x" built-in, the default interpretation is to think this civ must've been really good at making building x at some point in their history -- but this is entirely the opposite for Polynesia. Furthermore, its kinda the opposite for carthage too; unlike polynesia, carthage does have some affiliation with the very earliest of lighthouses, and their prevalence in an imagined carthage that was not wiped out seems likely; the thematic case for free lighthouse is much better there.

With these things in mind, the current UA strikes me as the better fit, ie polynesia literally have other methods of accomplishing a similar task as the lighthouse provides (rather than better abilities for reproducing the same method): polynesia thus has some flexibility in that they can maybe opt out from building a lighthouse where and when others would prioritize them, avoid the coast settling spots altogether, or coast settle and opt-in to LH for stacked yield bonuses.

Moving the lighthouse onto Polynesia also removes a piece of jank in their current kit, which is that they are incentivized to settle inland on islands to free up 1 more moai spot. Their cities can be inland and still give the adjacency bonus to nearby moai, and even if they settle on an island too small to support another city, they never need to worry about connecting it because of their isolation removal.

This is one of those topics where you and I see things in entirely different colors. What you call jank is to me very clever and thoughtful design. Polynesia was not a warship-producing society, despite being very maritime focused -- instead they were big into coastal raids with light infantry, marine-style forces; encouraging this one tile in-land settling takes them out of the pure naval game to a great extent, and limits the occurences of lighthouse so that they rely instead on UA. This is all very thematically satisfying imo, much more than this round's proposals.

 

[pineappledan]

This is one of those topics where you and I see things in entirely different colors. What you call jank is to me very clever and thoughtful design. Polynesia was not a warship-producing society, despite being very maritime focused -- instead they were big into coastal raids with light infantry, marine-style forces; encouraging this one tile in-land settling takes them out of the pure naval game to a great extent, and limits the occurences of lighthouse so that they rely instead on UA. This is all very thematically satisfying imo, much more than this round's proposals

If it is decided that Polynesia’s just-off-coast settle strat is cool, then the bonus should be the fish bonus and no isolation, and maybe some AI to support that. If it is decided that Polynesia should settle coast cities like everyone else, then changing the bonus to a free lighthouse on coastal cities makes that explicit.

 

[ma_kuh]

I wasn't going to throw this in the mix since it's a long way off, but I was imagining that we could eventually replace Polynesia's Lighthouse with the 3/4UC Marae (upgrading it from a council replacement), if that unification gains traction. That way you get both the sensible free-lighthouses for far flung settlements, and the nod that they didn't use lighthouses to maintain these connections between settlements.

For that reason I continue to prefer giving lighthouses to Polynesia, although both civs have their merits.