Yes, I will attack the Longbowman - end of story

[Provolution]

Yes, I will attack the Longbowman the very first turn with the healthy Keshik, and none other, as someone suggested. I have made some other plans surrounding this specific move, and would like to see a permanent end to this discussion.

And the presented poll, asking for "killing" the said longbowman, "Sterbenfurt" we call him, will be the subject to the RNG Gods, not me, not Daveshack, not Grant2004 and not the hazy term "Will of the People" or "Fog of War" for that matter. As this is a computer game, above a democracygame, there are certain binary processes we have to ask Firaxis about.

I will also see an end to attempts to make polls mean more than they actually state, maybe we need a law against it. Overselling using words like "killing" is also something we need to look at.

 

[Hyronymus]

The constitution already mentions poll-making. I do agree that some polls are not thought-through well enough but I have to say, and I hope you take it right, that your polls weren't always as throrough either.

Basically it's very simple to create The Perfect Poll™.

• all poll options must be exhaustive
• all poll options must be mutually exclusive

The first means that you have to cover all possible options in a poll. I.e., your poll "Shall we settle the Eastern City?" lacks some options (as pointed out by others).

The latter means that one poll option must not cover the same area as another poll option.

 

[grant2004]

I hope you'll consider attacking that longbowman with the injured keshik should the first keshik fail, otherwise that longbowman will be even more likely to retreat into the city. If you're going to do this you might as well do it all the way.

(remember 2nd keshik has a promotion that will heal him a good amount)

 

[Provolution]

The other Keshik is to be saved for a higher purpose, as we want to scout into German territory. I rather have more intelligence than not.

Initially, I hoped to save both Keshiks for that mission, but now I have only one left ,and a few turns later than I originally hoped for. I think our only healthy Keshik at 67 % is a good chance for us, and what the people voted for. The other Keshik is heading for the German golden hill East of Berlin, to scout for enemy formations coming our way.

I know the Keshik will get some of the force back from promotion, but this I would not gamble. This is where we have to give faith to the RNG.

 

[grant2004]

Unfortunately I don't have that much faith in the RNG. I fear that a middle of the road approach on attacking this longbowman will be much worse than putting the necessary force to finish him off into this battle, or, possibly even worse than leaving him alone entirely.

We only have a 60 something percent chance of victory in the first attack, and if we fail the injured longbowman will almost certainly retreat into the city, he'll certainly be able to heal before our army attacks by the current plan, which the DP doesn't have much flexibility with. He may even gain enough experience to get a second city defense bonus, making the capture of Berlin much more difficult.

I think I'll bring forward a poll on this issue as other citizens haven't voiced their opinion on this issue, and hopefully that poll will give a definitive result one way or the other, hopefully the 2nd longbowman poll will be lead to less controversy than the first.

 

[dutchfire]

Kill the longbowman, no matter what.

 

[DaveShack]

Moderator Action: You can't hit end of turn or perform actions which would require a reload. Evidence removed to limit scope of contamination.

 

[Joe Harker]

I didn't hit end turn!, i just moved it onto the floodplain and hover the mouse over the LB to see what the odds were!

 

[DaveShack]

Sorry, my mistake in terminology. Also actions which cannot be undone without a reload.

 

[Provolution]

Hoe Harker, I recommend you to set up a custom game, with same landmass and units, and do some testing.

 

[dutchfire]

May I point out that battle simulations can be done by starting a new game and editing it in world builder by setting up the same area with the same units. This will not give any spoiler information and would therefor be legal.

edit: Provolution beat me to it.

 

[DaveShack]

Agreed, a simulation is OK.

 

[grant2004]

I'm not even sure that what Joe did should classify as an illegal move, it's perfectly fine under the rules to hover the mouse over an enemy unit to assess the chances of success. This seems a fair move as it is impossible to find the true chances of success when the computer won't calculate the river bonus unless you are standing right next to it.

However this also begs the question, if this bug exists do you receive the higher or the lower chance when attacking across a river from a distance? Does the computer recalculate the odds as you cross the river or do they stick with the higher than expected odds when the battle begins?

 

[Provolution]

Maybe we should consider the full block now ? My game simulation proved that the longbow just went off the grid, probably north. But this was not a total landmass like this continent, but resembled the area around.

 

[Joe Harker]

Sorry, my mistake in terminology. Also actions which cannot be undone without a reload.

Don't worry,

yikes i didn't expect this to happen

 

[Methos]

I'm not even sure that what Joe did should classify as an illegal move, it's perfectly fine under the rules to hover the mouse over an enemy unit to assess the chances of success.

But it's not legal to move a unit to learn something. Basically, if we make a decision based off that information and decide to act differently, we have gained information outside the normal means.

The only way to make it valid would be to continue the game on from where Joe stopped after moving the unit, if we used that information.

 

[Provolution]

Yes, we could say it was piece of his Turnchat, mid-turn 0 moves, along with city renaming, then it would be perfectly legal. He is the turnchatter after all.
As long as joe did not actually "attack" or hit the end turn key, he is ok.

Now Dave, it seems you were wrong on the odds, I can see that now.
I just hoped for some faith in just blocking the longbowman, then move on.
What if we moved the Keshik across the river, to block the longbowman, then "his" odds for attacking us would be worse than us crossing the river, right?

 

[Methos]

Now Dave, it seems you were wrong on the odds, I can see that now.

This is my point. Because of his actions, you (as well as the rest of us) know what the correct odds are and are considering alternatives based off of that information. Therefore I believe we should play on from this point.

I believe I'm going to bring this matter up before the courts.

 

[grant2004]

But it's not legal to move a unit to learn something. Basically, if we make a decision based off that information and decide to act differently, we have gained information outside the normal means.

The only way to make it valid would be to continue the game on from where Joe stopped after moving the unit, if we used that information.

What I was trying to imply was that the information he learned would be learned legally in almost any other situation in game, but because of a specific bug that we are now aware of a small move was required to gain access to this normally freely available information, I think this move can be considered an exception because of this game bug that it compensates for.

 

[Provolution]

Good, since we know this from Joe, we can simply decide to move the two keshiks to Northeast of Berlin. They would block the longbowman, and still be capable of reaching the Golden Hill, east of Berlin. We need these fastmoving keshiks as scouts in German territory, and to pillage, not to suicide across bridges and fords.