SGOTM 09 - Misfits

[Sleepless]

If we want to avoid Hammi from taking 'our' close city-sites, and thus blocking him off the southern lands, best would be to settle Cow/Marble/Uranium and Cow/Wheat first. I cannot imagine Hammi going into the tundra (Iceball), if he has other sites available?!

Except the city placings. I'm still not sure. I would like to put the Southern cow with the rice and I think long term putting the Northern cow with the wheat would be best. If Ham builds in the CopperHill area we can always build another city which gets the sheep/marble instead.

I had another quick look at the save and if we give CF the 2 corn it will grow next turn so size 5 just right for a whip on the lib (I think ). Put JH on starvation working another plains forest and whip next turn as well. Remember to give it some food back after though.

I keep on forgetting to look at Hams EP points to see if he is splitting them but he should meet the Southern AI soon. If we go for Alpha after the wheel what tech are we going to be able to use for trade purposes? We could always gift something like med/priest/writing and get some bonus for that. We need the AI to tech something like math/IW before we can trade Alpha for anything reasonable though. So if we go for Alpha after the wheel (we can turn research off after the wheel till the Academy is built as well) and miss out AH etc I would definitely prefer the cow/wheat site as at least it would have access to some food.

 

[haphazard1]

Regarding whipping 1 pop in JH. This is currently working a 1f2h tile so an immediate lib + overflow to settler and next build started 2 turns earlier.

As of next turn, there will be another forest preserve completed for a 2f1h2c tile. The unhappy citizen will become happy and can work that, so we still have a 1f2h tile worked. But the next turn after that, another forest preserve will finish. So if we do not whip, we will have more commerce, with some food and a hammer, after one more turn of working 1f2h.

After the first GS we need CF to be productive. It can't do that whilst running GS's. We need to rex now. So after academy the priority has to be workers/settlers/units.

I want the first GS for an academy in the capital as soon as possible. But after that we need to pump out settlers, escort units, and workers for at least 4 new cities as quickly as possible. Northern plains cow (either the marble or the wheat sites), southwest plains (either with wheat or clams site), iceball copper, bear town. Plus something with fish/rice, and maybe at the bottleneck due south, plus the island...better make that 7 settlers, plus escorts, plus workers

If we focus on getting at least one windmill up ASAP at each new city, we should be able to maintain our high research slider even as we claim all the land readily available to us. And I agree with JH and others that we need to secure that land very soon.

Why are there fewer turns to pay back?

If you mean that we'll win faster than 'normal', because of the special set-up, OK.

But if there are lesser turns to pay back because we're playing Quick speed, I think you're wrong! There are lesser turns to pay back, of course, but compared to a bulb, it's the same again, because we'll bulb less beakers as well. Everything (except movement) is rounded down to 66%, turns, bulbs, tech-costs, ...

I was mostly thinking of the special techs. The total number of beakers required is going to be smaller than normal, and hopefully with our plans to get Edu and Oxford early, plus later Astro for observatories and labs early, the total number of turns is going to be smaller.

Quick speed can be misleading though; I also mostly play Epic, and my "gut feel" is often incorrect at quick speed.

The same goes with whipping. If a building in this game takes 4 turns to finish, is that worth whipping? But we have to consider that on Normal speed, it would be 6 turns, or 9 turns on Epic speed ... that is worth whipping, eventually.

Maybe I said all this for nothing, but these are my main problems whenever I play a quick game, because I prefer Epic speed. Everything seems worth building on Quick, because it only takes 'a few turns'

And that is a good point on the whips. Compared to epic speed, that would be 6.75 turns remaining. And I would probably whip that on epic, to start getting the +25% beakers in the capital immediately.

If we want to avoid Hammi from taking 'our' close city-sites, and thus blocking him off the southern lands, best would be to settle Cow/Marble/Uranium and Cow/Wheat first. I cannot imagine Hammi going into the tundra (Iceball), if he has other sites available?!

Since we now know that Hammi does have copper already, I agree that he is unlikely to take the iceball site immediately. So we should grab the plains sites -- if we can decide which ones we want -- before iceball.

Except the city placings. I'm still not sure. I would like to put the Southern cow with the rice and I think long term putting the Northern cow with the wheat would be best. If Ham builds in the CopperHill area we can always build another city which gets the sheep/marble instead.

Wish we knew what was under the fog south of the capital. But I can support this proposal. The marble will be within our borders soon anyway, and those few tiles are not so valuable that leaving the minor gap their will hurt us.

I keep on forgetting to look at Hams EP points to see if he is splitting them but he should meet the Southern AI soon. If we go for Alpha after the wheel what tech are we going to be able to use for trade purposes? We could always gift something like med/priest/writing and get some bonus for that. We need the AI to tech something like math/IW before we can trade Alpha for anything reasonable though. So if we go for Alpha after the wheel (we can turn research off after the wheel till the Academy is built as well) and miss out AH etc I would definitely prefer the cow/wheat site as at least it would have access to some food.

Reading AI EP is difficult, as they will put small bursts into the EP slider sometimes.

On tech trades, I think if the AIs have met each other (or civs we have not yet met) and are willing to trade, we will be OK. It is early enough that we can probably trade some very early techs like Priesthood and Writing for equally cheap stuff like AH, Sailing, Archery. IW will probably not be available until a bit later, but by then we should have plenty available to trade.

I do not think we can wait for an AI to tech Math -- we will need it for CS before the AI gets to it, most likely. We should not delay our own progress hoping an AI will tech something we need; at least not until we have enough EP to see their research and be sure they will have it available.

I am not in favor of turning off research until the academy is built, if we have the cash to keep pushing forward. If we want to go for Alpha and hope to trade, then let us do that as quickly as possible. If we are not going to be able to backfill techs, better to know sooner so we can grab the key ones we need (AH, etc.) and move forward.

I need to DL the save and check our cash situation; not sure exactly where we are there.

Mastiff,

Can you post a turnset plan? We are not decided on everything yet, but at least the general outline needs to be nailed down.

 

[KaleLambiek]

Do we have any interest in building a barracks at this time?

Any warrior/Phalanx we build is just going to be basic basic MP/ basic Barb control. I would rahter have 2 Phalanx than 1 Barracks and 1 Phalanx, then that may be just me.
Having Macemen will make it absolutely mute and Para's vs LBs dont need the startup XP either I think.

Only time might be if that barb city is a 1 tile high culture city on a hill.... Do we want to try and take it using a Zeppelin or two along with some CR macemen? Or do we wait till Para's ?
The earlier we take this (possibly UBER?) city the better off we are.

National Epic will need to be built somewhere with lots of food. Pacifism might even be worth a try

Or the Epic can go with the park in CopperHill?? What are the odds of finding a high food city that can run 8 (or more) specialists, like the park will do?
Pacifism requires a religion, might part the ways between us and potential trading partners. Getting more GPP with multiple cities... may be worth it or may not...

I wouldnt mind playing more turns to build Lib (3) > Dump into settler (1) > Warrior (1) > Finish Settler (3-ish?) then pausing for a bit so we can see what is the best city to found. 8 turns also sounds like a nice set? And Settler finished is a nice handoff point.
8 turns also might synch in getting Alpha or may just be short one turn. 2 for the wheel + 1 at 0% (wait for the libs to finish) + 6 for Alpha.

We could do the ultimate gamble and hope for either Hamu or Greeny to research Alpha, but that will probably take to long. Skipping Alpha to get it in trade should give us CS 6 turns earlier for not researching Alpha. Ultimately maybe Education 6 turns earlier? and victory 6 turns earlier?
Downside is we dont know when the finaly research Alpha, this could mean a serious delay in Granaries and/or Precious Pastures and/or happy sailing/Lighthouse Thus possibly harming the victory date more than helping it.
Not worth the gamble I think.

We get bonus commerce, and the capital will be able to start producing phalanx.

Well just 2 commerce, nothing major. Still 2 commerce = 3 beakers = 10% of our current research

Once connected no more warriors though... Which is why I would like to slot in a cheap warrior maybe two before the settler, to fogbust and MP our 'home town' cities.

Also NOTE that the roading plan was tuned to settle Copperhill. The red and black roads are still proper, the orange road though is to be moved south.
Atleast one possibly 2 tiles south, maybe even towards the Uranium depending on where we will settle our next city.

Iceball copper should be about as strong for hammers as the marble/cow/uranium city.

MAY well be or may not...
The cows do give an immediate +3 hammers, but only +1 food.
The sheep give +2 food, but only 1 hammer. The added Windmill makes it +1 food (overall) and +3 hammers (overall) some quick counting may prove Cow/Marble/Uranium to be better (short term, hammers) vs Copper hill.
Once we get this new city started, Copperfish should focus on building a Galley

even against those promoted galleys, with the help of airships

This requires building Zeppelins though and requires you to see the Barb Galleys, the barbs can move 3 tiles! So we need 1 zeppelin to scout then atleast 2 to do damage. Then 2 galleys to actually attack... thats a lot of hammers (150 for the Zeps and 60 for the Galleys).
I would rather see us found CC with 2 Macemen that can take out any incomming or 2 Phalanx to defend. The units can get some "free" xp while defending against the units.
Then get the Galleys from the north and take that damned barb city! Hoping it has instructors that are kept when we capture it, then the draft and/or whip there can produce US an uber army

Dont think national wonders (westpoint etc) can be kept upon capture though...

They are in order of preference. Edu, PP, Philo and Chem.

four are certainly the techs we are most likely to bulb

I dont like the idea of bulbing PP, I would prefer to not research that at all as we dont need it untill we swap to cottages.
Which in turn will probably not happen untill atleast Democracy, if ever... PP's basic intrest is +1 commerce on villages/towns plus its pre-req to Rep-Parts which we already have.
PP IMHO is low low priority...

I am still skeptical of lumbermills. I think forest preserves and more happiness -- for more specialists under caste? -- will be more valuable than a single hammer per lumbermill.

I am just trying to compare ON copper to OFF copper, getting equal hammers. But -3 happy and -2 grasslands, IMHO settling ON copper was definatly the thing to do.
For now atleast if we want to work all the tiles
2 Grass
4 forest (preserves)
1 corn
1 fish
and add 2 scientists that is size 10. Size 10 requires 6 preserves, 2 of which overlap with Jericho... All four forests need to be preserved for the time beeing.

I don't understand about "lost" GPP. Since each GP costs more than the one before, GPP can not be lost. If you wait to generate them, you get those later GP more rapidly since they cost less than if you had generated more GP earlier.

My point is if there are 100 turns left in the game... We run 2 scientists all 100 turns we get 1200 GPP.
If we stop running 2 scientists after the first GS for 10 turns we will never catch up again unless we run more scientist/specialists. Which we could do otherwize as well.
Not running 2 scientists 10 turns = 120 GPP less with NO way to compensate for it. Offcourse there is a bigger picture when multiple cities generate GPP... but the basic concept...

Regarding whipping 1 pop in JH. This is currently working a 1f2h tile so an immediate lib

1 pop whips are quite useless IMHO, also the 1f2h tile will be a 1f2h2c tile soon and even 2f2h3c watermill soon.
IMHO the turn gained is not valuable because we can run 0% science one turn building up the bank to run 100% longer later on, which will compensate for the 'turn lost' and then some.
MAYBE it would be a good idea if we...
Dump overflow now to Lib
Build Worker 1 turn (make sure to stay under 20 hammers)
Whip Worker for 2 pop and 20+ overflow
Finish library
This delays the library by 1 turn (extra turn on 0%), but giving the extra worker to do work earlier instead of...
Library > Warrior > Settler > Worker

Also we actually have 2! preserves about to finish, so we have 1 happyness to spare! instead of beeing 1 short. Handbuilding Lib > Warrior prior to the settler will allow Jericho to grow into its happy cap (size 8).
I am not sure how many turns Jericho would need to grow to size 8, maybe Lib > Warrior > Warrior > Settler if that brings us to size 8?
While we have copperfish go Lib (whipped)>Phalanx>Phalanx
The second Phalanx can also be a galley if we so desire

We should NOT neglect the offland/island city. If we have the 3rd city on our continent, putting the fourth city on the (is)land would give +4 commerce vs settling on the continent. Thats +10% overall commerce for settling there vs on the continent, we just need the galley to get the settler there.
Also the grass is green there instead of brown, possible grass hills to windmill??
Maybe food for whipping/specialists/settlers/Workers??
Resources? Happy preferably! Adding an extra pop to Jericho cannot be wrong ??!!

another forest preserve completed for a 2f1h2c tile.

No, the first preserve to be done is the plains one, 1f2h2c

The turn after that the grass forest 2f1h2c tile will be ready and the 3rd turn the watermill will finish for a 2f2h3c tile.

And that is a good point on the whips. Compared to epic speed, that would be 6.75 turns remaining. And I would probably whip that on epic, to start getting the +25% beakers in the capital immediately.

I probably wouldnt, just run 0% for a while and catch up later on... Doing some turns on 0% is not harmfull we can run 100% later. The big prize is CS, as long as that is not delayed we are not hurt by any delays in research. In fact we just speed up any tech beyond CS because we probably have Cash to spare and can run 100% thru paper and beyond.

Wish we knew what was under the fog south of the capital. But I can support this proposal. The marble will be within our borders soon anyway, and those few tiles are not so valuable that leaving the minor gap their will hurt us.

The hammers IMHO are invaluable... 13 hammers for an extra city = 13 GPT if we cash that to gold or even 26GPT if we cash it into a marble wonder. This can support our (growing) empire considerably.

I do not think we can wait for an AI to tech Math -- we will need it for CS before the AI gets to it, most likely. We should not delay our own progress hoping an AI will tech something we need; at least not until we have enough EP to see their research and be sure they will have it available.

Now EP / Courthouses that is a target worth whipping for...

Lets see... Next chop... I.e. when do we need Math for +50% on that?
4 turns on the current watermill for Namlaim
6 turns for the next one
1 turn moving
8 turns for the forest/watermill
===
19 turns, this should make it able for us to pick and choose...
Research Wheel > Alpha > Math > CoL
or Wheel > Alpha > CoL > Math
or even Wheel > Alpha > CoL > Sailing > Math
And probably still get the +50% so I am good with doing Math later...

I am not in favor of turning off research until the academy is built, if we have the cash to keep pushing forward. If we want to go for Alpha and hope to trade, then let us do that as quickly as possible. If we are not going to be able to backfill techs, better to know sooner so we can grab the key ones we need (AH, etc.) and move forward.

I need to DL the save and check our cash situation; not sure exactly where we are there.

We currently have 55 gold in reserve, we can research wheel 1 turn 100% then 2nd turn at more or less 50% (+14 gold).
Then run 0% for one turn while the libraries finish for an additional 30 gold.
So we should have about 99 gold after this (maybe a little more, maybe a little less).

I posted a detailed calculation here... a few posts back.
It is going to take atleast 10 turns not counting 3 additional turns needed in most spots to get a border pop.
Wheel + 1 turn 0% + Alpha is 9 turns
AH is 99 beakers and we should be making about 50 beakers/turn if not more. If worse comes to worse and we cannot trade for AH we can self research it JIT inside 2 turns, at that time.

Except the city placings.

City placings need more study I think... but we need a settler first so we can play till that point?

I had another quick look at the save and if we give CF the 2 corn it will grow next turn so size 5 just right for a whip on the lib (I think).

Generaly it is better to whip just before growing instead of just after

If we go for Alpha after the wheel what tech are we going to be able to use for trade purposes?

Getting alpha or the settler both would be a good stopping point. However tech trading... we should atleast have Alpha to trade... or at the very VERY least Electricity.

So if we go for Alpha after the wheel (we can turn research off after the wheel till the Academy is built as well) and miss out AH etc I would definitely prefer the cow/wheat site as at least it would have access to some food.

What does missing AH have to do with City choice? Building the settler and researching Alpha should time pretty well. Then the settler still has to walk, settle... possibly expand borders before the tech is needed.

Also waiting 2 turns for the whip in Athens/Copperfish + 6 turns to get the GS = 8 turns is IMHO to long. Waiting some... OK... Like waiting a turn between wheel and Alpha... possibly waiting after Alpha a turn or two? to get the Academy ... Fine...
Waiting 8 turns... *ouch*

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Northern plains cow (either the marble or the wheat sites), southwest plains (either with wheat or clams site), iceball copper, bear town. Plus something with fish/rice, and maybe at the bottleneck due south, plus the island...better make that 7 settlers, plus escorts, plus workers

I think I now agree with sleepless; we should build the next city at Cow/Wheat/Uranium/Wine, like the sign Kale put in-game. The 2nd city south of it should take Cow/Rice/Fog, and share the other Wine with Bear-town.
Although this wouldn't allow any city to use that Ocean-Fish ... but anyway, they only tile that would reach that Fish would produce a huge overlap with Bear-town. Not good in a longer game!

After these 2 cities, we would have blocked off Hammi, and can still take Iceball, if it's still available. Then we have Bear-town to settle, and much more land will be revealed; including barb-city and Green-Island ...

I was mostly thinking of the special techs. The total number of beakers required is going to be smaller than normal, and hopefully with our plans to get Edu and Oxford early, plus later Astro for observatories and labs early, the total number of turns is going to be smaller.

Well, shouldn't early Edu and Oxford, as well as Astro (if needed), be the normal strategy in every space-race?

But I agree; with those extra-techs and earlier Labs, it will still be faster.

As I said, that's my main-problem in every quick-game I play ... although there aren't that many ...
Everything only takes 'a few turns', and seems worth building, whereas in Epic, you wouldn't build it

Any warrior/Phalanx we build is just going to be basic basic MP/ basic Barb control. I would rahter have 2 Phalanx than 1 Barracks and 1 Phalanx, then that may be just me.

Agree, no barracks needed for MP-units. Let's invest those hammers in earlier settlers, workers and escorts.

Having Macemen will make it absolutely mute and Para's vs LBs dont need the startup XP either I think.

Well, even if they may not need them, we should be able to shift in a barracks somewhere, before Macemen or Paratroopers become available.

Hoping it has instructors that are kept when we capture it, then the draft and/or whip there can produce US an uber army

Dont think national wonders (westpoint etc) can be kept upon capture though...

I think settled Great People always stay alive, but National Wonders are always destroyed!

I dont like the idea of bulbing PP, I would prefer to not research that at all as we dont need it untill we swap to cottages.
[...]
PP IMHO is low low priority...

Agree; in this setup, PP is not important!

We should NOT neglect the offland/island city. If we have the 3rd city on our continent, putting the fourth city on the (is)land would give +4 commerce vs settling on the continent. Thats +10% overall commerce for settling there vs on the continent, we just need the galley to get the settler there.
Also the grass is green there instead of brown, possible grass hills to windmill??

I agree; that (is)land looks promising. It requires us to learn Sailing somewhere, though, and build a Galley to transport units.
I think those 2 'brown-grass-cities' to block off Hammi are more important. But maybe build the 3rd city there, if it's as good as it looks?

 

[JerichoHill]

The 2 brown-grass cities are decidedly more important now than the island city.
EXPAND TOWARDS THE AI . THEN FILL

 

[haphazard1]

The 2 brown-grass cities are decidedly more important now than the island city.
EXPAND TOWARDS THE AI . THEN FILL

Of course, that may not be an island, and there may be an AI beyond it. We just do not know yet. We need to settle the two brown grass cities first, but we should be planning/preparing to get a galley in the water and a settler to that island.

Very good point about PP -- we have Rep Parts and no/few cottages, so it can be skipped. Assuming the bulbing order allows us to skip it.

On techs and going for CS, we have to either research Alpha and get those key early techs from trade, or research AH, Pottery, Sailing, etc., ourselves. I do not think we can do without them until CS is completed. And the AI is (usually) very slow to tech Alpha, so we can not hope for trade that way.

On play order, we have not heard much from Mastiff. He indicated he could play this weekend, but we have no sign of a turnset plan yet. We have good momentum going and good discussion -- should we have Kale play more turns, or skip ahead to Sleepless?

Again, I am not trying to skip anyone if they are up to date with the discussion and ready to play. But I would like to keep the turnsets happening regularly, and not have long gaps in play which discourage discussion and participation.

 

[haphazard1]

Well, shouldn't early Edu and Oxford, as well as Astro (if needed), be the normal strategy in every space-race?

But I agree; with those extra-techs and earlier Labs, it will still be faster.

It is the usual pattern, but Astro does not normally allow labs as soon as the observatories are built.

I think settled Great People always stay alive, but National Wonders are always destroyed!

I have never actually had it happen, but I seem to recall reading that national wonders could be captured, if you had not already built that particular national wonder. This can actually be very bad, as you acquire a national wonder which you had plans to build somewhere else -- somewhere more useful than the AI placement.

 

[JerichoHill]

I agree with Hap about not having a delay in turnsets. I think mastiff is pretty busy, and that's cool. I think it would be nice if Sleepless could take a few turns, at least get us to a settler, so we can talk about where to settle.

 

[KaleLambiek]

we should build the next city at Cow/Wheat/Uranium/Wine, like the sign Kale put in-game.

I didnt put it there, I dont know about this city... we might want the northern one. A bigger dotmap is needed I think to see the implecations of both cities. The 3 istmus cities though... those look good and strong

After these 2 cities, we would have blocked off Hammi, and can still take Iceball, if it's still available. Then we have Bear-town to settle, and much more land will be revealed; including barb-city and Green-Island ...

IMHO why be pre-occupied with blocking the AI? isnt settling STRONG cities that benifit us ASAP more important?

I agree with Hap about not having a delay in turnsets. I think mastiff is pretty busy, and that's cool. I think it would be nice if Sleepless could take a few turns, at least get us to a settler, so we can talk about where to settle.

Agreed, but I think we need to do some digging into what city we want...
If we are not settling on Copperhill, we probably want the "orange road" towards the Uranium as that will allow us to settle earlier on both the Cow/Marble as well as on the Cow/Wheat positions.

 

[Sleepless]

Sorry if this is a bit rushed but if Mastiff hasn't posted a got it and KaleLambiek wants to play extra turns through to the first settler its ok by me. If I do it my whip finger would probably slip.

Regarding bulbs we need pp before philo/chem opens. Although we have no real need for pp at the moment it can always be traded so its still an essential bulb imho. I previously mooted the idea of avoiding guilds/banking/eng and getting them in trade which I still think is viable. So I still like my original idea of double bulb Edu and one each for the following three (could also use 2 on chem wastes beakers but we will have more idea by then and we need chem for bio another important tech). Looking at the land mass I don't think the SoL would be out of place either so demo wouldn't be to bad either.

Why is it important to block the AI? We get to place the cities where we want. Remember no razing. Although we would probably take them later, turns of anarchy, homeland unhappiness and we get to build what we want in them.

I really like wheat/cow as the next city as with bio that is going to make a very good prod city. I'd preserve some forests and hope for growth with a couple of mills. Then workshops/farms as necessary. We will want a very strong prod site for wonders etc and I think it should be here.

At work atm and need to sign off so will put more comments on later.

 

[JerichoHill]

Assuming we get two cities settled to the sw, Im cool with settling the island 4th (and bear city simultaneously.

To keep us moving, Kale, can you get us the settler?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

If Kale is ready, go for it... I'm good to play today or tomorrow, so maybe I can get in a few turns as well.

MF

 

[Sleepless]

I might be flogging a dead horse with this but I have just looked at the save again and I really can't see what is wrong with whipping both CF and JH next turn? My calculations might be wrong but as I said earlier I don't mm (usually) so thinking about it is giving me a headache.

CopperFish:

Max food so grows to size 5 next turn with 4 hammers into lib. Whip 2 pop for 40 hammers double for creative lib = 80 hammers + 4 hammers (for build) gives us 88 hammers into the lib (60 needed) so 28 overflow for phalanx (prob + 5 gold?). So turn 1 whip. Turn 2 build Lib, Turn 3 phalanx built (should be back to size 4 and can run 2 scientists I think, didn't check to closely). I know whipping with no food in the bank is not optimal but with the food surplus available and no gran I don't think it matters in this situation.

Jericho Hill:

Max hammers so 36 hammers into lib (-2 food would leave 1 in the granary). Whip for 40 hammers with + 32 from build = 108 hammers = 48 overflow into settler. With only 17 hammers needed to finish settler with corn and windmills should be built next turn.
So turn 1 whip. Turn 2 build Lib, Turn 3 build Settler. If I'm wrong please tell me but I can't see the downside. Well we do lose 1 pop in JH which was working a 1f2h tile.

Regarding city sites for the next 2 I really want to build the wheat/cow and then the fish/clam site as the next 2 sites. It would leave a 1 tile gap between the 2 borders but I can't see Hammy squeezing a settler between the 2. Rice/cow is looking like a possible cottage city + we should cottage the lands further South. I'm still not sold on GreenLand (the little island). It has no resources we can see and apart from the overseas trade routes which amount to + 1 gold per city will at the moment be a drain on our economy. Plus we need sailing + galley.

This leads to the next tech. I'm happy to go with Alpha. As our income will dive as we rex until we get the land improved. If needs be we can always build research/run scientists. After alpha I would go for CoL and hope we can get Math/IW in trade for alpha. Hopefully by then we will have met more AI and can trade for lots of things.

 

[Sleepless]

I know this really obvious but with the possibility of KaleLambiek/Mastiff playing the next turns please make sure you post a "Got it". Just in case.

 

[JerichoHill]

Just REX South and West, that is all I ask.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I know this really obvious but with the possibility of KaleLambiek/Mastiff playing the next turns please make sure you post a "Got it". Just in case.

I have the save and it opened just fine. I'm working on a turnset plan, and with post it shortly. Realize I'm probably the lowest ranking player on the team, so I like everyone to see what I'm doing... so no one is upset later. Once in awhile I come up with a great idea (like making the AI settle where we wanted), but I mostly learn from you guys.

Two things to ponder. One, maybe those barb galleys are there to keep teams from quickly rushing to the barb city with galleys of troops. I know I'd think twice... Two, knowledge is power, and a zeppelin will let us know a lot. I'll edit this post with my plan within the hour.

 

[KaleLambiek]

Sorry if this is a bit rushed but if Mastiff hasn't posted a got it and KaleLambiek wants to play extra turns through to the first settler its ok by me. If I do it my whip finger would probably slip.

I am fine, turnset done

I really like wheat/cow as the next city as with bio that is going to make a very good prod city. I'd preserve some forests and hope for growth with a couple of mills.

There are two diffrent wheat/cow cities...

Mills only go on hills too, so I think you mean the one marked already...

I'm good to play today or tomorrow, so maybe I can get in a few turns as well.

Feel free to take it Mastiff

whipping both CF and JH next turn?
CopperFish:

Copperfish Indeed needs to be whipped next turn, no question asked!
Your calculation is a little off though...
This turn 4, yes. Next turn we do add 80 and 4 for a total of 88. Correct so far... Now it breaks though...
A library costs 60 hammers, so that leaves 28 hammers as 'total overflow' this however goes back to base overflow from the creative lib hammers to normal base production hammers 28 / 2 = 14, NOT 28!

Note:
We should work the unpreserved forest not the lake IMHO to get the Phalanx ASAP! This would give 6 hammers on turn 0, but basics stay the same and we just get that extra hammer = turn saved towards the Phalanx

==== Observation ====
This small miss interpertation may be cause of your thinking whipping anything you have a bonus for is GREAT, infact there is (nearly) no difference between whipping a Settler (in this game) or whipping the Library.
Bonusses DO factor in, but not in this way...
=====================

The Phalanx then is not build on turn 3 but starts at turn 3 with only 14 + 2 hammers = 16 base hammers on the first turn, since we are still in PS we get +25% = +4 hammers, leaving us just shy of finishing the Phalanx, 23 needed 20 produced.
Phalanx to be fished on turn 4.

Now the food situation...
Lets see... Without growing this turn, i.e. whip just before growing....
07/18 now (turn 0). Add 9 food
16/18 next turn and whip for 2 pop down to size 2 => 16/16, still at +9 food (turn 1).
09/17 on turn 2 now size 3
01/18 on turn 3 Now size 4 => Start running 2 scientists

In this senario Jericho is not getting +3 food and actually going -1 food for 1 turn, thats 4 food 'lost'

Now putting in MAX food
07/18 now (turn 0). Add 13! food
02/19 next turn and whip for 2 pop down to size 3 => 02/17, add 9 food (turn 1)
11/17 on turn 2, add 9 food
03/18 on turn 3, now size 4 => Start running 2 scientists

By forcing the growth this turn in Copperfish (still called Athens in the save), in essance we are taking 4 food from Jericho to add 2 food to Copperfish, this IMHO is not a good deal!

Maybe if we would get the scientists (thus the Great scientist) a turn earlier... but that doesnt happen either... I dont like it personaly...

Jericho Hill:

Max hammers so 36 hammers into lib (-2 food would leave 1 in the granary).

OK so working a plains forest instead of a grass one... This exchanges 5 food from Jericho to 2 food in Copperfish

Whip for 40 hammers with + 32 from build = 108 hammers = 48 overflow into settler.

==== General whipping stuff ====
Yes only a 1 pop whip, 1 pop whip's in general are not a good idea... as the unhappy is generaly not worth the 1 pop. You are generaly whipping when you hit the happy cap, so you want to whip -2, regrow 1 pop next turn (effective -1 pop and -1 happy for 5 more turns (on quick)) and regrow your last pop in those 5 turns.

Now we are getting an extra happy next turn so it still works.
================================

Now in this calculation there are 2 problems,
1) the overflow Lib > Settler gets halved again (like above)
2) the base hammers produced by Jericho at size 6 (post 1 pop whip) is 11, making 22 production for the Library not 32!!

So that makes for 36 (first turn) + 40 (whip) + 22 (production) = 98, minus 60 = 38 total hammers / 2 = 19 base hammers overflow to the settler NOT 48!

With only 19 hammers overflow and Jerich 'only' producing 11 hammers and 5 food for 16 hammers (not 17??). This would take the settler a total of 3 turns to finish.
19 + 16 turn 1
35 + 16 turn 2
51 + 16 turn 3 Settler finished with 65 required and 2 hammers overflowing to next build.

If I'm wrong please tell me but I can't see the downside.

Well atleast partially wrong, but ideas are never bad... Perhaps given these insights you can do a recalculation and see how it works?

HOWEVER...
Lets assume this one pop we now lose in Jericho actually speeds up the settler some (1 maybe 2 or 3 turns?).
This one pop would under Buro work a 3 commerce watermill. +50% for Buro = 4.5 commerce, round that down to 4.
With a library and Academy at that time = +75% = 7 beakers / turn.
Is getting the city 3 turns earlier worth lets say (rounded down again) 5 beakers per turn?

And it did also give me a new idea.
We can sacrifice the food much like Sleepless is saying, however not whip Jericho and build the Library in 2 turns instead of 3 (manually) though without overflow instead of "mundo" overflow.
Downsides:
- Loss off food
- No reall gain if we otherwize would run 0% to wait for the Lib to finish
- No overflow to next build

Up side
- Earlier library (though no gain but for +2 culture)
- No overflow, no need to dump it
- Keeping research on 100% without 1 turn at 0% allows us to get Alphabet 1 turn earlier, probably CoL and Math 1 turn earlier. However we run out of funds sooner, so we dont get CS a turn earlier (the big prize at the moment)

Regarding city sites for the next 2

I skip this for now, this is a whole seperate can of worms.... I will try to make a map of potential city sites and how they devide up the land (for us)
Settling a city on the coast with the cows/clams/fish or there abouts we will IMHO need two phalanx' (atleast) to defend it and not have it fall to the Barbs.

After alpha I would go for CoL and hope we can get Math/IW in trade for alpha. Hopefully by then we will have met more AI and can trade for lots of things.

Math IMHO is unlikely to be tradable anytime soon enough for us to get it in time before we need it for CS, but we can hope.

I agree on the techpath though.... Some very specifics...
Wheel 2 turns
1 turn 100%
1 turn tweaked to finish something like 50% or less?
0% for 1 turn if needed
=== Beakers aquired... ===
12 beakers from Copperfish (2 fish + 1 CC + 1 traderoute = 4 + 6 from scientists + 25%)
36 beakers from Jericho (25 base now + 3 commerce from a watermill + 1 traderoute = 29 + 25%)
We will be researching at 48 beakers / turn... Now each tech will have 1 pre-req so we get +20% over that = 57 beakers / turn
==========================

Alphabet
300 / 57 = 6 turns (42 overflow)
=== Add academy to beakers ===
Now we should have Academy
29 + 75 % = 50 beakers/turn from Jericho
Copperfish will remain at 12, not factoring in any growth anywhere... or extra beakers from additional cities
For a total of 62 beakers +20% = 74 beakers/turn
==============================
Code of Law
(349 - 42) / 74 = 5 turns (63 overflow)

Mathmatics <preverably, but doubtfully IMHO traded?>
(249 - 63) / 74 = 3 turns (36 overflow)

CS at 100%
(801 - 36) / 77 = 10 turns (making a little growth before we hit this, just to get CS in 10 turns)

2 + 6 + 5 + 3 + 10 = 26 turns at an average of say 5gpt cost per turn we need a total balance of ~130 gold to get to CS at 100% <Keep in mind that current costs are only 2 gpt, so 5 gpt may be a little high??>
Realisticaly we can speed it up a little but 100 gold (average cost about 4gpt) or even 130 gold will be a nice target. We wont need much more than that I think...

So maybe insert one or two turns of 0% during alpha just before getting to the Great Scientist. If my approximation is near target would be we need about 120 - 140 gold total to get to CS at 100% after the Academy. With the tweaked turn for The Wheel and the 1 turn at 0% after The Wheel, we should be at approximatly 100 gold. We will need 1 maybe 2 turns more at 0% anyway (or multiple turns at 80% or lower slider)... Might as well do it before we have the Academy.

As the gold doesnt change, but the Beakers do

 

[haphazard1]

It seems like we still have a lot of open issues that need to be debated and decided:

- Dotmap for city sites
- Order to settle the sites, once we pick them
- Whip or not whip JH?
- Tech path

We want to keep our momentum, but at the same time we do not want to play if we are not sure what we want to do.

I would be happy to have Kale (or Mastiff, or Sleepless) play just 2/3 more turns, to finish libraries, get a settler built, meet the mystery green civ (and find out if greeny and Hammi know each other, could be crucial for trade), and maybe reveal a tiny bit more of the map before we finalize our dotmap.

But we need to decide on our micro and our research even for just a couple more turns. My thoughts:

CopperFish -- as described by Sleepless, build library for 1 turn, then whip 2 pop into the library. Overflow into a phalanx. Work max food (fish, then one corn) to grow again, and assign scientists ASAP (1 at size 3, 2 at size 4). After the whip-overflow phalanx, probably build another phalanx? Or is there something more useful we could be building here?

JH -- I am not entirely against whipping here since getting the library immediately means +25% beakers on all that commerce, but I do not think Sleepless' numbers are right. This will be a 1-pop whip, and the overflow gets divided by the creative multiplier back to "real" hammers, so there will be a lot less overflow into the settler. So the settler finishes later than the third turn, probably more like 4th turn, or even 5th. That means we have whipped down and are not regrowing for several turns, which I never like much. Plus, we are about to expand our happy cap with two new forest preserves.

Still, I think we want the library ASAP for the bonus beakers. And we can not yet build phalanx in JH (need those roads!), so settler after is the best bet. The extra turn or two will give the phalanx time to start moving to escort the settler wherever we end up deciding to send it.

So, put one turn into library (32 with overflow, creative +100%). Whip 1 pop (40 with creative), plus base 22 hammers (with creative) == 94, so 34/2 = 17 overflow to settler. That leaves 48 remaining for the settler, which will take exactly three turns. Make certain the last pop is working the new forest preserve to get the extra commerce.

Workers -- complete the current tasks of forest preserves and watermill, then build the roads linking CopperFish and JH for trade route commerce and metal in JH. Continue building forest preserves and roads as time allows, or watermills on the river if the positioning is right.

Tech -- Drop research to 0% until libraries done, then finish Wheel. Our workers are not ready to build roads quite yet anyway, so we might as well accumulate cash.

Explorers -- meet mystery green civ. For the warrior, I would sign OB with Hammi and explore his lands. We need to know what he has, and if there is more land (and possibly civs) beyond him to the west. We can always drop the OB later if needed.

Or we could bring the warrior back east to check out the fog south of us.


This would get us another 5 turns or so, until the settler is built. We will have a little more info by then, and can decide on a final dotmap.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Showers of rotten fruit?

 

[KaleLambiek]

like making the AI settle where we wanted

What?? Force an AI to settle on the very spot you want it too ??

Two things to ponder. One, maybe those barb galleys are there to keep teams from quickly rushing to the barb city with galleys of troops. I know I'd think twice... Two, knowledge is power, and a zeppelin will let us know a lot.

Knowledge is definatly power!

If HapHazard and/or myself are right, I will expect there to be ATLEAST like 50% or even 100% culture defence there already.
Expect the city atleast to be on a hill (one tile island or otherwize, on a hill atleast)
The defending units/archers to have ATLEAST 2 promotions if not 3 or even 4 like the galleys.

CG 3 Medic 1 Archer, base strength 3.
CG 3 +75% defending a city +10% vs Melee
+50% culture defence
+25% hill itself
+25% hill defense of the archer
+25% Fortification

vs a Melee unit (Phalanx) the most likely attacker and say CR2 (-45% for the defender)

That would be 3 + (75 + 50 + 25 + 25 - 45)% vs 5 - 10%
or 3 + 155% vs 5 - 10% => 7.65 vs 4.5 strenght...

Perhaps with a Zeppelin doing 20% damage, not exactly sure how this works into all this...
You would require I think atleast 3 Phalanx for every defending Archer to take the city. Assuming atleast 2 defenders, thats 6 CR2 Phalanx and 3 galleys and 2 Zeppelins for 6*23 + 3*33 + 2*53 = 343 hammers atleast that you need to invest into taking that city. That is 5 settlers... That is A FREAKING LOT even if that is an UBER city.

I'll edit this post with my plan within the hour.

Please make a new post? Dont edit this one because the thread will not pop up as having new posts.

 

[haphazard1]

OK, I see more discussion while I was writing my post. So feel free to ignore most of it.

I have the save and it opened just fine. I'm working on a turnset plan, and with post it shortly. Realize I'm probably the lowest ranking player on the team, so I like everyone to see what I'm doing... so no one is upset later. Once in awhile I come up with a great idea (like making the AI settle where we wanted), but I mostly learn from you guys.

Sounds good, Mastiff! Once we have a turnset plan, we can debate and discuss and decide. And we need everyone's ideas -- that is the benefit of team play, getting the strongest ideas from everyone as we are all different and take different approaches to the game.

Two things to ponder. One, maybe those barb galleys are there to keep teams from quickly rushing to the barb city with galleys of troops. I know I'd think twice... Two, knowledge is power, and a zeppelin will let us know a lot. I'll edit this post with my plan within the hour.

The ice makes a very early galley rush on the barb city difficult, unless a team settled much further south on the coast. But I agree that those galleys will make any early coastal push difficult. Even keeping seafood intact will be hard/impossible for a while.

And we do need a zeppelin to scout the barb city and check out the green island. But I agree with JH and others than we need to REX some first. There is potential for us to get boxed in by Hammi, the barbs, and maybe green guy. We need to claim land ASAP.

There are two diffrent wheat/cow cities...

Or even more, potentially. I also wish we had AH, to know if there are horses somewhere on those plains. Or over on green island, or on those two grass tiles west of CopperFish.

[lots of excellent discussion of whipping]

Yes only a 1 pop whip, 1 pop whip's in general are not a good idea... as the unhappy is generaly not worth the 1 pop. You are generaly whipping when you hit the happy cap, so you want to whip -2, regrow 1 pop next turn (effective -1 pop and -1 happy for 5 more turns (on quick)) and regrow your last pop in those 5 turns.

Now we are getting an extra happy next turn so it still works.

1 pop whips are only an issue if you are short of happiness, and with forest preserves about to be completed we are OK for now. The whip anger will fade well before it becomes a problem, especially with turns spent not growing while building the settler.

Now in this calculation there are 2 problems,
1) the overflow Lib > Settler gets halved again (like above)
2) the base hammers produced by Jericho at size 6 (post 1 pop whip) is 11, making 22 production for the Library not 32!!

So that makes for 36 (first turn) + 40 (whip) + 22 (production) = 98, minus 60 = 38 total hammers / 2 = 19 base hammers overflow to the settler NOT 48!

With only 19 hammers overflow and Jerich 'only' producing 11 hammers and 5 food for 16 hammers (not 17??). This would take the settler a total of 3 turns to finish.
19 + 16 turn 1
35 + 16 turn 2
51 + 16 turn 3 Settler finished with 65 required and 2 hammers overflowing to next build.

Matches pretty much what I was calculating -- 3 turns to complete the settler after the library is 1-pop whipped. But I think this is the way to go.

HOWEVER...
Lets assume this one pop we now lose in Jericho actually speeds up the settler some (1 maybe 2 or 3 turns?).
This one pop would under Buro work a 3 commerce watermill. +50% for Buro = 4.5 commerce, round that down to 4.
With a library and Academy at that time = +75% = 7 beakers / turn.
Is getting the city 3 turns earlier worth lets say (rounded down again) 5 beakers per turn?

Now this I don't really understand. We do not have CS for Bur yet, or an academy, or even the watermill for a couple more turns. Compared to what we do have -- a lake, plains forest, grass forest -- we are not giving up very much to get the library and the settler earlier.

Math IMHO is unlikely to be tradable anytime soon enough for us to get it in time before we need it for CS, but we can hope.

We can not count on getting Math from the AI in the timeframe we would need it to reach CS quickly. We will have to research it ourselves. I would prefer to do this after CoL, to give us a better chance at found Confucianism. We have riverside tiles to build watermills on without chopping for a while, so the few turns delay in Math should not cost us any hammers.

Alphabet
300 / 57 = 6 turns (42 overflow)
=== Add academy to beakers ===
Now we should have Academy

I do not think this applies, if we plan to go Alpha after Wheel. The academy is minimum 9 turns away (2 turns for library, 6 turns for GPP, 1 turn to move to JH if roads built by then), probably more like 11. We can not afford to wait that long, IMHO, if we are not going to tech the small stuff (AH, Pottery, Sailing) ourselves.

The path you described does not leave any room for these important "small" techs if we can not get them through trade, and even by trade we will not have them for 10+ turns. AH at least is going to be needed for either of the cow towns, and to reveal horses.

I am beginning to think we should just tech AH ourselves, then skip Alpha and go straight for CS. We will save several turns (AH cheaper than Alpha) reaching CS, and it does not sound like we are planning to really use Sailing or even Pottery much in the near future anyway. IW would be nice, but will still be available later.