SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

Wait a minute. Atlantis will become a monster. :eek:

Globe Theatre = no unhappiness
National Park = no unhealth (from pop)
Twenty (20) 3f1h tiles in the fat cross.

In other words it can grow to pop 31 and have a freaking awesome production and research... :eek:
Kind of makes you wonder what jesusin has against no food cities... :lol: :joke:
 
In other words it can grow to pop 31 and have a freaking awesome production and research... :eek:
Research is high early. But it will not be big relative to later techs (like rifling :)). No multiplier buildings. No scientists. And spawned barb cities all over the world will cost maintenance reducing the slider.
We should probably look to it that they don't get too many free barb beakers, meaning keep some backwards AI. They will not earn free beakers if only 2 of 7 know a tech (but 2 of 6 - do we want to kill anybody).
 
Does anyone know what the white rectangles are? It's like a graveyard?

And what looks like a drydock does not match the standard graphics.

And why does the lighthouse have a red band?

Is it related to the age?
 
Has the team decided that we shall cottage our capital?
If so, how fast shall we do that?

How many more cities shall we build until we start focus on infrastructure?

At least one city on the eastern island, then what?
Inland or along the coast?

We could use the barbs to reach a level 5 unit rather quickly for Heroic Epic.
 
Does anyone know what the white rectangles are? It's like a graveyard?

And what looks like a drydock does not match the standard graphics.

And why does the lighthouse have a red band?

Is it related to the age?
The white boxes are crates belonging to the drydock.
The barbs are in modern age, so have modern type buildings.
 
At least one city on the eastern island, then what?
Inland or along the coast?
Well, we don't know what there is inland, as we prioritized looking at the barb city. But if there is a decent city site I would do this before going to the coast, which needs quite some troops to defend.
Then there is the question, when we build the troops, if we should rather use them to get something from Hammi, instead of sitting around killing barbs. We need to know if Hammi's cities are worth the effort.
 
* Think: REX and MW-cottages. - Yes

* Build a city (or two?) on East Island asap for the trade bonus(es). If we don't get Sailing with Alpha, research it next. - Yes

* Build Rice City asap. Gives us a trade route to Joao while no coastal barb city in between. It needs 3 maces, in city, in forest, and on rice. The sooner the barbs start attacking, the sooner their numbers in that city diminish, since with 2 galleys, they can send 2 per turn, but only build 1 per turn.

* I can't think of any reason not to revolt to Confucianism now. - I have no opinion

* Agree with klarius on Marble plains/hill windmill. That worker could then road between MW and Rice without wasting turns. Other workers build grass cottages that FF, Marble, and MW can work. New worker builds MW windmill or starts roading to Rice if settler built soon.- I have no opinion

* Airship scouting: East Island first (hopefully over land), then rebase as far west as possible (his center city currrently). - I suggest 1N of Oil to reveal as many sea resource tiles as possible east of the island. The other options (2N or 3N of Whales) may reveal more of the hills, and possibly more of the land far east.
...

Have we abandoned the city on cow?

Have we abandoned a city south of any of the two mountains?

Rice city is 1E of Rice, yes?

Why do you want a mace on the rice and forest? I agree on three maces, but we can kill them once they land, no? Are you afraid the barbs will land 4 units?
 
I'm not sure about the percentages. What I'm saying is if you build the granary at or before you are 50% to the next pop point, the granary is effective immediately. If you build it with more than 50% in the box it's not effective until you grow a 2nd time.

This quoted sentence doesn't match facts. My theory doesn't match facts either. Is that a bad thing cause I've played all my games wrong, or a good thing cause I am learning something new?

My theory was that half the food gained after granary is up, is accumulated for next pop.

WB facts:

A pop2 city with 0/24 food in the bar and 10ftp gets a granary-->
3turns later is pop3 18/26
As expected, half the 24 bar is given by the granary, 6 overflow, 12+6=18

A pop2 city with 20/24 food in the bar and 10ftp gets a granary-->
1turn later is pop3 16/26
Not as expected, half the 4 bar got after granary plus 6 overflow should be 8, not 16

A pop2 city with 20/24 food in the bar and 6ftp gets a granary-->
1turn later is pop3 8/26
Not as expected, half the 4 bar got after granary plus 2 overflow should be 4, not 8

A pop2 city with 18/24 food in the bar and 10ftp gets a granary-->
1turn later is pop3 14/26
Not as expected, half the 6 bar got after granary plus 4 overflow should be 7, not 14





What theory matches facts? Let's try this: "once you have granary, food before half of the bar doesn't get any benefit from granary, while food after half of the bar gets multiplied by 2 by granary (being received after pop growth)".

Let's see

A pop2 city with 0/24 food in the bar and 10ftp gets a granary-->
3turns later is pop3 18/26
First 12 food don't get anything. Next 12 do, so 12 food added for next pop. Then there's 6 overflow, total 18->ok

A pop2 city with 20/24 food in the bar and 10ftp gets a granary-->
1turn later is pop3 16/26
4 food added get benefit, then there's 6 overflow, total 10->NOT OK

A pop2 city with 20/24 food in the bar and 6ftp gets a granary-->
1turn later is pop3 8/26
4 food added get benefit, then there's 2 overflow, total 6->NOT OK

A pop2 city with 18/24 food in the bar and 10ftp gets a granary-->
1turn later is pop3 14/26
6 food added get benefit, then there's 4 overflow, total 10->NOT OK



Hmmm, then let's change the theory: "once you have granary, food before half of the bar doesn't get any benefit from granary, while food after half of the bar gets multiplied by 2 by granary (being received after pop growth) and overflow gets doubled too".

A pop2 city with 0/24 food in the bar and 10ftp gets a granary-->
3turns later is pop3 18/26
First 12 food don't get anything. Next 12 do and 6 overflow too, so 18 food added for next pop. Then there's 6 overflow, total 24->NOK

A pop2 city with 20/24 food in the bar and 10ftp gets a granary-->
1turn later is pop3 16/26
4 food added get benefit, 6 overflow too, then there's the 6 overflow itself, total 16->ok

A pop2 city with 20/24 food in the bar and 6ftp gets a granary-->
1turn later is pop3 8/26
4 food added get benefit, 2 overflow too, then there's the 2 overflow itself, total 8->ok

A pop2 city with 18/24 food in the bar and 10ftp gets a granary-->
1turn later is pop3 14/26
6 food added get benefit, 4 overflow too, then there's the 4 overflow itself, total 14->ok


So now it doesn't work either. :confused: Can someone state a simple rule that matches facts?




Anyway, IMO this is a bug, not a feature. Food overflow gets the benefit of granary twice!
 
@jesusin: the correct rule is: all food gets doubled (including overflow), up to a maximum gain of half of the food bar.
 
I agree on three maces, but we can kill them once they land, no? Are you afraid the barbs will land 4 units?
Well, I had this case several times in test runs. The barb galleys are traveling alone, but there might one come from Atlantis and one turning around that was on the way to Lisbon as our city is now nearer to them. Also don't forget we don't know when they get better units. Especially nasty for maces are longbows, which I have seen around T50 in tests.

We should also consider MC for triremes (later there might be even a use for ironclads :eek:). 4 of them could block all galley (the only barb transport unit) paths. Just the problem where to build them. A possibility would be a fortress channel to our barren sea.
 
Research is high early. But it will not be big relative to later techs (like rifling :)). No multiplier buildings. No scientists. And spawned barb cities all over the world will cost maintenance reducing the slider.
We should probably look to it that they don't get too many free barb beakers, meaning keep some backwards AI. They will not earn free beakers if only 2 of 7 know a tech (but 2 of 6 - do we want to kill anybody).

Ah, but the klever barbarians have learned from Team Murky Waters how to generate cash by building cheap military units for maximum overflow. They are probably filthily rich already. :lol:
 
They are probably filthily rich already. :lol:
They are. :D
But the AI doesn't do deficit research. They always want a gold rate >=0. :)
The barbs may end up with 1000s of gold in their hold in the end unless they manage to get into US. As they don't trade and anyway don't pay anything for upgrade they have not much chance to spend gold.
 
I suggest that we relax the PPP a bit, and focus more on overall development, instead of specific worker moves for each turn, such as build preserve on TileX, cottage TileY, road towards CityZ. I hope this will encourage us to focus on the big picture.
 
...We should also consider MC for triremes (later there might be even a use for ironclads :eek:). 4 of them could block all galley (the only barb transport unit) paths. Just the problem where to build them. A possibility would be a fortress channel to our barren sea.

Yes, two forts on tundra and forest/grass would enable ships in FF to reach the south. It's ~16 worker turns so it may take a while.

What options do we have with that barb city?

  • Blockade with triremes
  • Protect fish/clam with triremes
  • Protect coastal cities with land units only and skip sea tiles
  • Skip the coast and expand south-west, then west
 
@klarius: WHen the barbs landed four units on the same turn, did they land on the same tile? I noticed them repeatedly landing on the same tile at Amsterdam, but that's just one test situation.

Also, with the lbs, I'd be interested to know how soon the barbs might research Feudalism now that we know more or less what their city contains. (Your tests might have overpowered their research, or...?) I just think we should look for a way to REX the coast rather than a reason to fear or delay it. If it's triremes, so be it. Then let's figure out how soon we need MC.

@Erkon: I had a mace on the forest and one on the rice because the other tile is a useless, defenseless tile. We could just put two on the forest, if it's roaded, and still attack wherever they land. The idea, though, is to find out where they want to land and force them to attack from sea to do it (they pay the 25%, right?). Then, hopefully, they never make beachhead.
 
Well if we want to settle on coast, we need only defend one city heavily as the barbs will always land next to the same.
One idea wold be LC's famous no food city 3e1s. The barbs will land on the tundra. It's near our production center so no problem to move a lot troops there. And if we are tired of defending it we could let the barbs take it and flip it back for free units :lol:.

In fact that maybe a method to get defenders in the first place :D.
Build that city and let the barbs take it. Flip it back. The barb units in the city will be killed. As long as we don't have archery we will get a free mace (if connected to copper). Only problem is that the flip is a random process with less than 10% per turn.
 
focus on the big picture
Good point and without a few more turns of air reconnaissance, we're maybe wasting our time discussing options. I think the first few turns of Gnejs' turnset are more or less obvious anyway. Explore East Island and the western landscape, then we can focus our REX discussion. Until then, the workers and builds won't change, in any case, right?
 
@klarius: WHen the barbs landed four units on the same turn, did they land on the same tile? I noticed them repeatedly landing on the same tile at Amsterdam, but that's just one test situation.
The landing tile is not random, but there is a best tile, which all will want to land on (adjacent to city, best plot defense, enemies around are factors influencing). It could be a different tile, if a galley can drop one turn faster at a different tile. Though adjacent to city will always be most important.
 
Well if we want to settle on coast, we need only defend one city heavily as the barbs will always land next to the same.
One idea wold be LC's famous no food city 3e1s. The barbs will land on the tundra. It's near our production center so no problem to move a lot troops there. And if we are tired of defending it we could let the barbs take it and flip it back for free units :lol:.

In fact that maybe a method to get defenders in the first place :D.
Build that city and let the barbs take it. Flip it back. The barb units in the city will be killed. As long as we don't have archery we will get a free mace (if connected to copper). Only problem is that the flip is a random process with less than 10% per turn.
Extremely interesting idea.

Questions:
1. Can we ensure or be sure that they will continue to attack this city after we build more?
2. If if flips to us, can they continue to try to capture it back? If so, will they?
3. If it wants to flip to us, can we say no, to protect our other coastal cities?
 
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