Sandman civilization - brainstorm

[mo123567]

I'm not a modder but I thought it would be interesting to have a civilization of sandpeople. I am hoping that if we can flesh out the details here that maybe a skilled modder will pick it up and turn it into a reality.

My rough idea is to have a very unique civ. that consists of a sand spirit? that grows in power and size. The specifics of the civ would be built around the idea that the entire civ is basically one entity that can grow in size and power. As it grows, it can mainifest itself in more powerful and numerous ways which would be represented by units. The units should have the ability to merge into more powerful units ands separate into weaker ones since they are all one.

As far as cities go, there could be people living in the cities who live under the protection of the sand entity, or maybe just one city that represents the mind of the sand entity.

The civ would spread undeveloped sand territory. No improvements or anything. The units would be able to move very quickly and be more powerful in the sand. They would only be able to move a few tiles away from sand and get weaker when they do. Perhaps the more advanced units would be unrestrained to the great sand sea that they create.

I would like to see sand storms that are similar to the blizzard mechanic. One more thing. I want to work in sandworms somehow. Just like the move Beetleguise.

Well, that's all I have for now. It needs a lot of development and a backstory. Please let me know if you like the idea and also add your own, and from the mod experts, even details on how the mechanics could be worked out.

 

[Vehem]

I'm not a modder but I thought it would be interesting to have a civilization of sandpeople. I am hoping that if we can flesh out the details here that maybe a skilled modder will pick it up and turn it into a reality.

That very almost never happens, though if you have notepad and spare time, you can indeed be a modder. Especially around here. Everyone is at it

 

[Valkrionn]

Haha, very true. It's usually much easier to get help when you have some code ready to show, as well.

That said, I like the basic idea..... I'd rather see a generic spirit though, because then you could have different elements representing different unit lines.... The spirit emphasizes certain aspects of itself for each unit line.

 

[mo123567]

That very almost never happens, though if you have notepad and spare time, you can indeed be a modder. Especially around here. Everyone is at it

Well that's a good way to kill the thread
What do you think of the idea?

I had one more idea to add. The civ can get units/grow when other units die in the desert. To help that along, the desert can become a lot more dangerous thanks to sandstorms and sandworms! etc... Except of course, for the Malakim, who couuld either be likekly to get along with the sand civ or more skilled at fighting them, depending on the back story and balance.

 

[mo123567]

Haha, very true. It's usually much easier to get help when you have some code ready to show, as well.

That said, I like the basic idea..... I'd rather see a generic spirit though, because then you could have different elements representing different unit lines.... The spirit emphasizes certain aspects of itself for each unit line.

Yeah, I would prefer this route as well. I was wondering if borders could be spread without needing cities.

 

[mo123567]

Along with a bunch of pictures of Sandmen from star wars and the Sandman from spider man, I found this. Being able to take any appearence, perhaps the sand spirit tries to be pleasing to the eye. Or the leader picture could just be an empty desert.

 

[Valkrionn]

Well that's a good way to kill the thread
What do you think of the idea?

I had one more idea to add. The civ can get units/grow when other units die in the desert. To help that along, the desert can become a lot more dangerous thanks to sandstorms and sandworms! etc... Except of course, for the Malakim, who couuld either be likekly to get along with the sand civ or more skilled at fighting them, depending on the back story and balance.

If the was benevolent, it would probably get along with the Malakim, at least under Varn... Otherwise, they'd probably be fighting contantly.

Yeah, I would prefer this route as well. I was wondering if borders could be spread without needing cities.

I know it's possible in other mods, but I think it took DLL changes. Not sure how to do it in FF.

 

[mo123567]

I found some info on modding. I would be willing to try, but this civ idea is far from basic so I probably won't get very far without a lot of help and/or co-modders. Or if someone wanted to take the helm of this project and delegate tasks I would be willing to help.

What's the basic rule on art and music? Do you just take what you want, give credit, and hope you don't get sued? Do you think Sting has tried the Octopus Overlords yet?

 

[Valkrionn]

I'd be happy to help you with any questions you have... Have too many of my own mods to do much though.

 

[Vehem]

Well that's a good way to kill the thread
What do you think of the idea?

Was aiming for the opposite really - threads like these tend to die off on their own if people just wait for someone else to take the idea over, but as Valk said - throw some code at it and people will try it, comment, help out etc...

The idea is interesting - definitely something that hasn't been done in Civ so far to my knowledge. Effectively your "power rating" can be divided into as many units as you choose, though I'd assume you'd need to achieve certain goals (techs in standard civ, but could be tech-agnostic and just be about sand-spread) to allow those units to grow beyond a certain size (if you had 40 power, you could split into 10 Strength 4 units in the early game, but having a single strength 20 unit and several weaker ones before the other civs have Champions etc would probably destroy the balance).

The other concern is regarding promotions and how they'd be handled - do the sand-spirit-units gain XP and if so where does it go when they split/combine? Do they keep the same promotions, or are they able to repick them every time they shift between sizes (2 units with 10XP each combine, the new unit is Level 1 with 20XP to spend etc?). That makes for a very flexible way to build units - able to re-specialize as you wish.

Fitting it into Fall From Heaven lore is also going to be a challenge, though that's optional for any mod I suppose. FF tries not to stray too far from the story that Kael and co have created, but there's no reason any mod has to do that...

I found some info on modding. I would be willing to try, but this civ idea is far from basic so I probably won't get very far without a lot of help and/or co-modders. Or if someone wanted to take the helm of this project and delegate tasks I would be willing to help.

What's the basic rule on art and music? Do you just take what you want, give credit, and hope you don't get sued? Do you think Sting has tried the Octopus Overlords yet?

Art and Music - basically a case of don't take it if they say "don't take it", ask permission where possible, don't use too much of a song unless it's public domain and give as much credit to people as you're able to.

Any help you need, just head over here and someone will probably be happy to help if it's a problem that is well-defined ("how do I create a new unit with 20XP and delete the old ones?" rather than "how do I do the units?").

 

[mo123567]

When I said I wasn't a modder I wasn't kidding. I took a look at one of the tutorials for just adding a basic civilization and it is very time consuming and tedious work. I gave it a shot with just the basics to get to the piont of being to load it up and it crashed of course. Probably a simple error somewhere. I think making an original civilization with a bunch of features that are not standard is way over my head, not to mention my patience level. It's too bad, as I would really love to play this civ.

It really makes me appreciate all the hard work you guys put into making this mod. If I haven't said it before, thanks a lot.

Well, if I don't make the civ the thread will probably die, but the idea is out there even if people want to use parts of it for their mod.

 

[deadliver]

Here I thought in FF the Sandpeople were the Malakim.

Nuff said.

 

[Deon]

Oh, Deadliver, I thought that this is another thread about Malakim .

Well that's a good way to kill the thread

Uhm, sir, it's a bit hard to kill something which was never born. Or undead. Or whatever, it lives. Lol .

but the idea is out there even if people want to use parts of it for their mod.

Excuse me, parts of what? It reminds me of that russian cartoon about jungle animals, where a snake asked a small elephant to pass a "hello" to monkey and she was complaining that the elephant passed her nothing . There's a lot of great ideas out there, but it's proved by many people that unless you do something, noone will do it. And it's not time consuming and tedious work to add another civ, it's a matter of minutes, but the process of turning it into something unique, as well as bug fixing, may take forever.

Also I don't like the look of that girl with a questionable christian tattoo sticking out of her pants. FF is FALL FURTHER not Final Fantasy .

-Dennis, Bloody Peasant. (this means YOU)

I'm really Dennis! How did you know, rascal?!! I will spear you for calling me an insolent peasant!

 

[mo123567]

Oh, Deadliver, I thought that this is another thread about Malakim .


Uhm, sir, it's a bit hard to kill something which was never born. Or undead. Or whatever, it lives. Lol .


Excuse me, parts of what? It reminds me of that russian cartoon about jungle animals, where a snake asked a small elephant to pass a "hello" to monkey and she was complaining that the elephant passed her nothing . There's a lot of great ideas out there, but it's proved by many people that unless you do something, noone will do it. And it's not time consuming and tedious work to add another civ, it's a matter of minutes, but the process of turning it into something unique, as well as bug fixing, may take forever.

Also I don't like the look of that girl with a questionable christian tattoo sticking out of her pants. FF is FALL FURTHER not Final Fantasy .


I'm really Dennis! How did you know, rascal?!! I will spear you for calling me an insolent peasant!

Just because the civ would reside in the desert doesn't mean they are necessarily like the Makakim. There are mainy other civs that share the same environment.

What was the point of your post anyway? I'm serious, what was going through your head when you posted? Why post at all in this thread if you've nothing to add?

 

[Honor]

I personally think the desert girl is hot.

 

[deadliver]

Just because the civ would reside in the desert doesn't mean they are necessarily like the Makakim. There are mainy other civs that share the same environment.

What was the point of your post anyway? I'm serious, what was going through your head when you posted? Why post at all in this thread if you've nothing to add?

The point of my post is that there is already (well now two if you include the D'tesh) a civilization that resides, prospers and has a reason to spread desert terrain. Lorewise one version of your proposal is similar to the Malakim.

What you are describing appears to be the following:

1.) There is an entity (probably a colonist type one) that exists in the desert, you call it a spirit i'd call it a fallen angel or godling really. This spirit grows and obviously has magic abilities, earlier in the thread someone (maybe you) that it could take the form of individuals so that a city of individuals may actually turn out to be a single entity. Personally I do not like this idea.

2.) There is an entity that exists in the desert, you call it a spirit. This spirit grows and obviously has magic abilities, earlier in the thread (i am sure it was you now) that it could take the forms of individuals that were more pleasing (enter hot chick picture). People may live in cities where this entity lives for protection. I guess they venerate it or otherwise help it or perhaps the spirit really doesn't care but they think it does.

Both of these, (please correct me if I misunderstood btw), ideas have merit...though as I mentioned I do not like the first all that much for several reasons:

1.) A lot of work to be done with modeling for UUs and UBs. After all a civ that represents a spirit realm would not have granaries or even cities as we understand them, hence weird buildings (lets call them that for lack of a better word for now) and also units.
2.) While I like civ concepts that are a departure from the normal civilizations (for example people like Amurites but I think they are still kinda vanilla, at least the Sheiam can pimp AV), I think perhaps this is too rapid a departure. To me this civilization would be a combination of Scion's haunted lands with other hell terrain features thrown in.

What would make this civilization stand out enough to be worth of the effort of the people who are actually willing to contribute art? (me of course, not being one of them)

The second idea could be cool but lore wise Varn Gosam has done something similar by melding all the local religions into something that he used to create a real civilization. He is looked upon with awe by his people, probably similarly to the way Sabathiel is viewed (sans wings, plus one cheating wife).

There. That is my opinion.

p.s. I like the idea of sandstorms, this I think was a popular topic in the FFH forum about the Malakim. I also like the idea of merging units as a sort of upgrade. I do like the way the Mercurians work and how their cool units have to start off as basic angels so that could work.

p.p.s. Get a thicker skin, if you want to throw ideas out in the forum be prepared for people to not fall at your feet in adoration.

 

[mo123567]

The point of my post is that there is already (well now two if you include the D'tesh) a civilization that resides, prospers and has a reason to spread desert terrain. Lorewise one version of your proposal is similar to the Malakim.

What you are describing appears to be the following:

1.) There is an entity (probably a colonist type one) that exists in the desert, you call it a spirit i'd call it a fallen angel or godling really. This spirit grows and obviously has magic abilities, earlier in the thread someone (maybe you) that it could take the form of individuals so that a city of individuals may actually turn out to be a single entity. Personally I do not like this idea.

2.) There is an entity that exists in the desert, you call it a spirit. This spirit grows and obviously has magic abilities, earlier in the thread (i am sure it was you now) that it could take the forms of individuals that were more pleasing (enter hot chick picture). People may live in cities where this entity lives for protection. I guess they venerate it or otherwise help it or perhaps the spirit really doesn't care but they think it does.

Both of these, (please correct me if I misunderstood btw), ideas have merit...though as I mentioned I do not like the first all that much for several reasons:

1.) A lot of work to be done with modeling for UUs and UBs. After all a civ that represents a spirit realm would not have granaries or even cities as we understand them, hence weird buildings (lets call them that for lack of a better word for now) and also units.
2.) While I like civ concepts that are a departure from the normal civilizations (for example people like Amurites but I think they are still kinda vanilla, at least the Sheiam can pimp AV), I think perhaps this is too rapid a departure. To me this civilization would be a combination of Scion's haunted lands with other hell terrain features thrown in.

What would make this civilization stand out enough to be worth of the effort of the people who are actually willing to contribute art? (me of course, not being one of them)

The second idea could be cool but lore wise Varn Gosam has done something similar by melding all the local religions into something that he used to create a real civilization. He is looked upon with awe by his people, probably similarly to the way Sabathiel is viewed (sans wings, plus one cheating wife).

There. That is my opinion.

p.s. I like the idea of sandstorms, this I think was a popular topic in the FFH forum about the Malakim. I also like the idea of merging units as a sort of upgrade. I do like the way the Mercurians work and how their cool units have to start off as basic angels so that could work.

p.p.s. Get a thicker skin, if you want to throw ideas out in the forum be prepared for people to not fall at your feet in adoration.

I was in no way referring to your post. Your point was completely valid. It was the post after yours I was referring to. I have no problem with people disagreeing. It is when people act in a way that would not be acceptable in person just because they are online. So, I guess your right about me needing thicker skin because I just can't accept when people are rude just because they are online and fear no repercussions.

As far as the thread topic is concerned, yeah this idea is definately in it's infancy. I was just trying to get the ball rolling on this concept, but aparently that doesn't work around here. I wanted to take a lot of things out (terrain improvements, extra cities, etc..) These would have to be replaced by other mechanics to make it fun and original. I had a couple of ideas and I was hoping to get some other people to weigh in with some ideas to indeed make this a worthwhile project hence the "brainstorm" in the title. As it is, it is just a couple of thoughts and a loose concept. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[deadliver]

I don't think you'll be able to pull off removing improvements from the civ, unless the civ is going to rely on buildings for hammers or it's hell terrain instead of improvements (hell terrain being its unique terrain just like Haunted lands). And I do not mean that from a modding prospective (i.e. it would be tough yada yada) but simply because the resource totals would blow.

What would happen to the terrain inside the civ's borders? Would the civ simply have a trait that gives them bonuses to certain terrains instead of having improvements too? What about the resources that require improvements?

 

[mo123567]

Once again, way complicated, but I don't see the point of adding another civ unless it's very different, but I was thinking that this civ would have a whole new way to get by. Maybe production to this civ is like food to the scions. I pretty much see this civ as occupying a featureless and dangerous desert. I guess food may not be neccessary either and culture would be done differently.

I wanted them to spread borders and their environment in a different way as well. Maybe adding a new terrain, the sand sea, or something like that would help. If it is possible they could spread their land and terrain by combat. By defeating a unit the tile could turn into a "sand sea" tile and become part of thier "cultural" territory. They aren't suceptable to culture and other civs aren't suscepable to their cultere. All sand sea tiles simply belong to them. You have to convert the tile back from a sandsea tile in order to take it back. To balance this, they are only able to travel within a limited amount of tiles from their borders since they become to weak without the "sand sea" in thier reach. More advanced units can travel further. To further help them spread, they could tempt units toward the sand sea. Tempt being some sort of effect that makes the unit lose control and walk mindlessly toward the sand.New barbarian units like the sandworm could help them spread their land with out declaring war. Also, the sandstorms and maybe quicksand could help.

Instead of simply being a warlike civ that wants to simply spread it's lands, they could offer temptations and indulgences to other civs that may benefit both civs. Perhaps, if resorces can be moved, they could trade them to civs for sacrificial units or something else. I'm trying to figure out what this civ may want besides spreading their desert.

There are still a bunch of problems, including what to do about technology/research, balance of course, and most importantly, would this be fun? I still have a bunch of other ideas floating around. Maybe, someday I'll start organizing this mess into some coherant blueprint for the civ, which still has no name.

 

[Vehem]

I don't think you'll be able to pull off removing improvements from the civ, unless the civ is going to rely on buildings for hammers or it's hell terrain instead of improvements

It's actually feasible. I was toying with doing it for the lizard civs and the numbers look healthy enough. They do have unique "improvements" of their own (swamps and a couple of variations I was playing with) - but essentially they're using the land and their Civ-Specific boni and civics.

Haven't decided if it actually improves them at all yet. Not sure it does.