Recursive made that officially out of scope for the VP project.
Reducing military units brainstorm
- Thread starter myclan
- Start date
Tekamthi
Emperor
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- Aug 12, 2016
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even if it weren't forbidden, the AI just won't adjust as-is even if engine is capable -- try one of the mods that allows stacking, the AI will never stack any units. Its been a few years since I last tried this but in my experience, our VP AI will only analyze for 1UPT. Redeveloping a stacking AI would be very daunting task.
anyway, polite reminder we have a separate thread for stacking-related discussion. The hope here is to explore new supply mechanisms & systems
anyway, polite reminder we have a separate thread for stacking-related discussion. The hope here is to explore new supply mechanisms & systems
myclan
King
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- Feb 26, 2008
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- 671
If the supply system is too controversial, I would like to discuss the reducing units suggestion first.
Let’s imagine:
Your opponent have 4 units defending.
You have 6 units in the frontline, kill their 4, with all of the 6 injured. If you are not with a huge leading in tech, they may be severely injured.
So you have to let them have a rest, continue your war with another 6 reinforcement units.
Your opponent build another 4 units to counter you, repeat the first step.
Finally, you need 12 or even 18 units to accomplish the conquering task. With 1upt, it means a lot of micromanagement and time. Reinforcement units can’t do anything for away from frontline, but also indispensable.
By rising units’ hp and production cost, the fighting between units maybe longer for harder to be killed, but the whole war maybe shorter for more difficult to regain your lost units.
Let’s imagine:
Your opponent have 4 units defending.
You have 6 units in the frontline, kill their 4, with all of the 6 injured. If you are not with a huge leading in tech, they may be severely injured.
So you have to let them have a rest, continue your war with another 6 reinforcement units.
Your opponent build another 4 units to counter you, repeat the first step.
Finally, you need 12 or even 18 units to accomplish the conquering task. With 1upt, it means a lot of micromanagement and time. Reinforcement units can’t do anything for away from frontline, but also indispensable.
By rising units’ hp and production cost, the fighting between units maybe longer for harder to be killed, but the whole war maybe shorter for more difficult to regain your lost units.
Last edited:
Better Buff Turtle ship
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2024
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Based on the fact that the city where the army is stationed is ruined, how about unit maintenance gold being used first in nearby cities.
In the late game, it is easy to cover that with a few caravans, so I don't know if it will be effective.
Sry for my bad english grammar
In the late game, it is easy to cover that with a few caravans, so I don't know if it will be effective.
Sry for my bad english grammar
What do you mean "used first"? Gold is global.Based on the fact that the city where the army is stationed is ruined, how about unit maintenance gold being used first in nearby cities.
In the late game, it is easy to cover that with a few caravans, so I don't know if it will be effective.
Sry for my bad english grammar
Better Buff Turtle ship
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2024
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I mean one of city's gold yield. If it is not enough, it makes poverty unhappiness. As far as I know, the military power by distance is already applied to VP. Like this city's gold yield is used first for maintenance by distance and it can make regional unhappiness. Perhaps it's just complicated and of little use for reducing military...
But why? Do we still have a problem with that?
Let's see what happens when the AI doesn't ignore supply cap in this version first.
Revolutionist_8
King
I've been using 3 UPT for a while in my modmod, and the AI does utilize it, although not very well. I have the feeling that it's often accidental and it still prioritizes 1 UPT (I'm still seeing carpets), unfortunately.
Supply proposal draft based on the Tweaked numbers (from the current version of my tweaks mod):
Introducing the new Empire Size modifier that can be made to affect both Flat Supply and Supply from Population: similar to Tech and Policy modifiers, you need +5% of supply per city to reach the same supply count, just like how you need 5% more Science per city to research a tech.
For example, if you have 4 cities, every 1.2 Flat Supply and Supply from Population will count as 1 Supply. Assuming NO researched tech and ignoring supply from difficulty/generals/admirals, a 20-city empire with 60 Flat Supply and 120 Supply from Population would have 180 / (1 + 5% * 20) = 90 supply cap.
Now, this modifier can
1. replace one/both of the existing modifiers;
2. additively stack with one/both of the existing modifiers;
3. multiplicatively stack with one/both of the existing modifiers;
4. a mix of the above.
I haven't decided on which yet. Open to suggestions.
The objective:
1. Tall should have higher supply per city than wide. This cannot be done with the current formula regardless of number changes (wide just has too much population per city right now), so an empire size modifier is needed.
2. Hopefully the lategame supply bloat can be addressed with the correct numbers. I expect no significant supply growth post-Industrial for the average player given the same amount of cities. Which is why I prefer keeping the tech modifier, since population still grows non-stop.
Possible questions:
Q1. Won't this make tall better than wide in warring?
A1. My aim is to make them equal assuming players evenly place their units at their borders, i.e. the supply cap to border length ratio (NOT land area; you don't need to defend the a city deep within your empire) is equal for both tall and wide. Neither should have the initial advantage, but the side with the better unit production should eventually have the upper hand.
Q2. How moddable is this?
A2. The empire size modifier per city will be yet another Defines value. Numbers can be tweaked however you want, but the stacking method (additive/multiplicative) will have to be in DLL. It's always one or the other.
| Base VP | Tweaked | |
|---|---|---|
| Flat Supply Divisor | 1 + 83% * tech progress | 1 + 100% * tech progress |
| Supply from Population Divisor | 1 + 700% * tech progress | 1 + 100% * tech progress |
| Difficulty Flat Supply Bonus | Whatever it is currently | +1 the current number (to Human, AI, but not City-State) |
| Difficulty-based Supply from Population | 35%-15% | 20% (to Human, Ai, and City-State) |
| Base Supply per City | +1 Supply | 0 Supply |
| Lighthouse (and its UB) | +1 Supply | 0 Supply |
| Harbor | +2 Supply | +1 Supply |
| Seaport | 20% Supply from Population | 10% Supply from Population |
| Stable | 10% Supply from Population | +1 Supply |
| Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base's Supply from Population | 10%/10%/10%/10%/20% | All 5% |
| Bastion Fort's New Change | 0 Supply | +1 Flat Supply |
| Parthenon | +10% Supply from local Population | 0% |
| Justice's Royal Guardhouse | 20% Supply from Local Population | +10% Supply from Population in all Cities |
| Dominance | +10% Supply from local Population | +5 Flat Supply |
| Autocracy's United Front | +50% Supply from Population in all Cities | +25% Supply from Population in all Cities |
| France UA | 25% from Population in all Cities | 15% from Population in all Cities |
Introducing the new Empire Size modifier that can be made to affect both Flat Supply and Supply from Population: similar to Tech and Policy modifiers, you need +5% of supply per city to reach the same supply count, just like how you need 5% more Science per city to research a tech.
For example, if you have 4 cities, every 1.2 Flat Supply and Supply from Population will count as 1 Supply. Assuming NO researched tech and ignoring supply from difficulty/generals/admirals, a 20-city empire with 60 Flat Supply and 120 Supply from Population would have 180 / (1 + 5% * 20) = 90 supply cap.
Now, this modifier can
1. replace one/both of the existing modifiers;
2. additively stack with one/both of the existing modifiers;
3. multiplicatively stack with one/both of the existing modifiers;
4. a mix of the above.
I haven't decided on which yet. Open to suggestions.
The objective:
1. Tall should have higher supply per city than wide. This cannot be done with the current formula regardless of number changes (wide just has too much population per city right now), so an empire size modifier is needed.
2. Hopefully the lategame supply bloat can be addressed with the correct numbers. I expect no significant supply growth post-Industrial for the average player given the same amount of cities. Which is why I prefer keeping the tech modifier, since population still grows non-stop.
Possible questions:
Q1. Won't this make tall better than wide in warring?
A1. My aim is to make them equal assuming players evenly place their units at their borders, i.e. the supply cap to border length ratio (NOT land area; you don't need to defend the a city deep within your empire) is equal for both tall and wide. Neither should have the initial advantage, but the side with the better unit production should eventually have the upper hand.
Q2. How moddable is this?
A2. The empire size modifier per city will be yet another Defines value. Numbers can be tweaked however you want, but the stacking method (additive/multiplicative) will have to be in DLL. It's always one or the other.
Agiwan
Warlord
- Joined
- May 11, 2021
- Messages
- 261
Do you think it is possible to add a "hard cap" based on the size of the map ? Or at least have the possibility of putting one using a .sql ? What I mean is that the supply normally increases but can never exceed number X (e.g. 100).
Its good and organized, but to really understand it I would need to see the population and tech formulas. How does the supply from population work, how does the tech divisor actually reduce supply? Than I could put together a few examples to highlight how the change would look.
Also remind me where dominance is again?
Flat supply = (Total of all flat sources) / (1 + X% * tech progress)
Supply from population = (City 1's supply from population% * City 1's population + City 2's supply from population% * City 2's population + ...) / (1 + Y% * tech progress)
Supply from difficulty = Z - (number of era passed)
Supply from general/admiral = number of generals/admirals expended
Total supply cap = (Sum of the above) * (1 - penalty from war weariness)
Dominance is the Authority policy that increases supply.
Supply from population = (City 1's supply from population% * City 1's population + City 2's supply from population% * City 2's population + ...) / (1 + Y% * tech progress)
Supply from difficulty = Z - (number of era passed)
Supply from general/admiral = number of generals/admirals expended
Total supply cap = (Sum of the above) * (1 - penalty from war weariness)
Dominance is the Authority policy that increases supply.
BornDownUnder
Warlord
This sounds great, the only question I have is how do you foresee the AI handling the adjustments?
Won't they just do? They see what supply limit they have and can make decisions based on that.
der_weihnachtsmann
Chieftain
i havent read everything but have you thought about having supply more as a regenerating resource like in other strategy games? that way units cant be replaced that easily and wars would progress faster.
Tekamthi
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2016
- Messages
- 1,678
yes we have! there have been a few threads related to this topic, can't recall if it was discussed here or in others -- but the notion of trading supply, of having to build it, these things have been raised, but with no traction so far. I think we'd find that a solid minority of players would be interested in such things, but not the full community here. In any case nothing really specific has emerged as a possible contender for either modmod or proposal, just a bunch of vague ideas. I did code up something sorta related to this in modmod sub -- it sorta works to create a "regenerating resource", although probably not what you have in mind...
epicivfreak
Prince
I honestly gave up on following this discussion at some point because it seemed obvious to me that you'd limit units by making each unit, from increasing eras, cost more money (+1 gold per era). Gold is the key.
Xaviarlol
Warlord
- Joined
- May 27, 2011
- Messages
- 263
Would a more simple approach, like making unit production costs increase per consumed supply, be a better solution?
In other words, change Supply to not be a cap, but rather just a number that goes up, and the more it goes up, the more it costs to produce units and more gold maintenance per unit? Can make it exponential. Eg. If you have 5 units consuming 5 supply, each additional unit costs 5% more production than base. If you have 50 units consuming 50 supply, each new unit costs 100% more production and gold maintenance. Buildings and bonuses that increase supply cap will instead reduce the penalties from supply. Eg -10% from the effect of supply.
In other words, change Supply to not be a cap, but rather just a number that goes up, and the more it goes up, the more it costs to produce units and more gold maintenance per unit? Can make it exponential. Eg. If you have 5 units consuming 5 supply, each additional unit costs 5% more production than base. If you have 50 units consuming 50 supply, each new unit costs 100% more production and gold maintenance. Buildings and bonuses that increase supply cap will instead reduce the penalties from supply. Eg -10% from the effect of supply.
Great idea! Really dig it! No more artificial limits
