Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

You used it, and I believe to enough of an extent for its use to have meaning, and still lost. It's not a cheat on HoF competitions to use road pillaging after signing gold per turn for luxuries and gold or techonlogy.

The HoF rules page in the Allowed section has a list of exploits which are legal. Prebuilding is a questionable exploit. ICS is a questionable exploit, even though many 100k entries use this and so do people who make scientist specialist farms. Buying a worker and then an army before the turn ends could get called a questionable exploit.

Absolutely, I don't mean to say that it isn't allowed. It is explicitly allowed, and in the games on Sid and Deity talked about at length, it's been repeatedly used. It's part of the game. And no, it does not mean you automatically win .... clearly I didn't. Should the game be programmed to allow a human to promise gpt for a lux + tech + gold and then pillage a road and never deliver the gold and not have their reputation hit? Probably not. I just feel a little angsty doing it, even though its fun.

Let's face it, Sid/Deity level are very, very hard to win on Tiny/Small Pangaea worlds. The AI's advantage in starting units / the extra settler are almost impossible to overcome relative to the size of the world. The extra settler when you are only going to have an OCN of 7 or 8 is way more consequential as when you have an OCN of 18. The extra support for units means you have to build huge armies with small civs to beat the AI while also trying to build workers, etc. If they were doing the game again, they'd have to scale down the Sid/Deity starting units relative to world size.

Writing that page was a pain in the butt. The line separating questionable vs full exploit is extremely nebulous, especially with a game so massive and complex. Game acceptance happens one submission at a time, and the real goal is consistent standards and an environment of fun, fair play.

100%. Everyone playing by the same rules is critical. And it's fun to do it! I have IMMENSELY enjoyed these recent attempts. And I've always respected the way you run the HOF, superslug.
 
Small Demigod Diplo. Pangaea

Started with the Greeks with the Russians as AI opponent but they were popping too many techs so I figured I'd give Catie a run against Greeks/Ottomans/Germans/Persians/Koreans, to minimize starting techs and make sure no one had pottery. Hoped to snag a SGL from CB, but didn't do it. Popped Warrior Code from a hut and did some good trading. Hit Writing second but still was able to trade it for good stuff, then hit Literature first.

We made a bee line for Philosophy seeing it was 8 turns and the Greeks just turned up with Code of Laws. With 1 turn left on Philosophy, we traded Lit for Code of Laws hoping against hope that I would get lucky once, and then this beautiful thing happened:

1709603651694.png


Pyramids aren't built yet. I have a food challenged starting location. My pre-build on the Great Library is bad although I can join workers and I think I can finish in 40 turns. I can pretty much get my way into the Medieval Era trading Republic for ALL the mandatory techs, then What's the Big Picture to get a second level tech. Decisions, decisions.
 
I was pinned in, not enough production in core, had to abandon when the Germans declared on me in the west while I was building up an army to take out a few Korean cities in the East. I just gave Otto a ROP, he abused it.

I wound up building ToA with my SGL to build up border expansions. My civ was too flat and long, even though I wound up with 5 luxes. I fell behind in tech and I couldn't get the pillage trade going except for a couple of times with the Persians. Eventually I had to pillage pretty much every road.

Sold Military Tradition a couple of times but they were in the Industrial Era when I was researching Magnetism with ToG to go.

There were huge armies for hundreds of years fighting in my lands, mostly Longbowmen and Medieval Infantry going at it. No artillery of course. I didn't see a single Korean city fall despite it being attacked by 3 powerful civs. I think had Germany not declared I could have rolled up 3-4 solid Korean cities which would have been close to my core and been productive, including one that would have been in my first ring.
 
I was pinned in, not enough production in core, had to abandon when the Germans declared on me in the west while I was building up an army to take out a few Korean cities in the East. I just gave Otto a ROP, he abused it.

I wound up building ToA with my SGL to build up border expansions. My civ was too flat and long, even though I wound up with 5 luxes. I fell behind in tech and I couldn't get the pillage trade going except for a couple of times with the Persians. Eventually I had to pillage pretty much every road.

Sold Military Tradition a couple of times but they were in the Industrial Era when I was researching Magnetism with ToG to go.

There were huge armies for hundreds of years fighting in my lands, mostly Longbowmen and Medieval Infantry going at it. No artillery of course. I didn't see a single Korean city fall despite it being attacked by 3 powerful civs. I think had Germany not declared I could have rolled up 3-4 solid Korean cities which would have been close to my core and been productive, including one that would have been in my first ring.
In the picture above, Hyangsan was just a thorn in my side the whole game. I wound up spreading out West to get 2 luxes (Gems, Dyes) in a thick, thick, jungle. It should have been my 4th city in my core and productive as a worker/settler factory with that flood plain wheat. That was my first target for my war with Korean, which I was probably 2 turns away from (I had 6 cannons, 2 Cossacks ready plus 4 medieval infantry, plus 3 more Cossacks w/in 2 turns).

I took Knossos and another close Greek city in a quick Greek war (the Greeks sent some settlers WAY out from their core) but the Koreans were just too strong too early for me to take out. Their army was decimated in the 500 year war with the Germans and Ottomans and Greeks.

The more I think about it, the map got me here. My core location was too much desert relative to flood plain, and I couldn't spread out enough in a circular fashion to reduce distance corruption. But I popped an early settler and put it down on a lux I wouldn't have otherwise gotten and popped several techs from huts that were useful in trading. Although politically it disgusts me, I think Russia is right for me on this particular challenge because of the popping techs / settlers.
 
Butt kicked again, this time when I went to war with Persia. I thought I had a decent starting location, good food (3 flood plain wheats), solid core group of cities, 2 luxes and was able to build the Great Library. I allied with Germany (Persia's neighbor) but Persia just poured Immortals in and I couldn't get my catapults to crack the city I wanted that was guarded by 3 pikeman. By the time I flipped to Republic I couldn't do any research and it was costing 40 gpt in unit costs.

I should have built all the cats sooner and gone to war with an archer rush / cats while it was still spearmen defending. I was even in tech and then all of a sudden the AI were in the Medieval era.
 
Maybe it's a personal failing, but I've never been able to set up reliable pumps on flood plain wheat. I find them great for noncore specialist cities, but I don't even bother playing something without a grassland river cow to start with. Maybe just my personal playstyle, though.
 
Playing a game now with a SGL from Ceremonial Burial (that is so glorious) and Literature off of winning the race to Philosophy. Decided that growth (Pyramids) and culture (ToA) were the right path and that I could still build Great Library. It all worked. Also, I did a very early war with a 4 catapult 4 archer rush in which the Germans not only sued for peace but voluntarily gave me 3 cities in addition to the 1 I took. Map is good for food and we have 2 luxes, with a third on the way when Otto loses Berlin and Leipzig, where he very kindly built me the Hanging Gardens.
 
Maybe it's a personal failing, but I've never been able to set up reliable pumps on flood plain wheat. I find them great for noncore specialist cities, but I don't even bother playing something without a grassland river cow to start with. Maybe just my personal playstyle, though.
They are harder to manage for sure, my biggest problem is them crashing down to size 1/2 after a couple settlers. You have to MM them more, but they are more reliable to me in producing 4 turn settler factories vs. 6 turn settler factories. Of course "factory" suggests they produce on their own. In practice, I've had fewer cities that consistently produce settlers every four turns and stay at the same size starting population than cities that produce 4 turn setters for a few turns, then I have to produce a spearman to get pop back up, then 4 turn settlers.

And obviously the spotting settler factories article is invaluable.
 
Well, we have a victory. It all started with these:
CB SGL first tech.jpg

literature SGL.jpg


The game is a lot easier with 2 SGLs in your first 2 first techs. As mentioned in a previous post, I chose Pyramids for SGL 1 and ToA for SGL 2, hoping for territory grabs through the free temples, thinking I could still pull off the Great Library.

Tech pace was remarkably slow, and I tech traded a lot early, brokering some good deals at minimal or no cost. I only popped Warrior Code from a good hut, everything else was trade, trade, trade. I think we hit Writing second, but the AI who hit Writing a few turns before me didn't know other AI so I flipped Writing into a lot of key techs. I hit CB, and Philosophy and Literature (from Philosopy) first, I believe. I finished the Great Library late, and it felt like we were researching techs in the Medieval Era later than normal. I think the reason was that we left the AA without The Republic or Monarchy, and I wasn't giving up Literature. I turned off science after I hit LIterature and realized all the other AA techs were hit by the AI and I just needed to broker trades to get them. The other AIs seemed to be content with not researching Theology / Education quickly. By the time I got Education I had flipped into the Republic and had a pretty lucrative gpt of 100+ per turn in BC based on tech at 0%.

As mentioned before, we did a quick archer / cat rush on the western German cities, taking one and razing another. We took the city immediately west of Berlin, and I think Otto got really nervous because when I sued for peace, he gave me three cities, all but one of which had pretty good food supplies. He was down to four cities but he kept building Wonders, and wound up finishing the Great Lighthouse (useless) and the Hanging Gardens in Leipzig. It was nice of him to build HG for me. His core and mine were so close that Frankfurt became my Forbidden Palace city and I built the UN there.

We fought a second war against Germany with the express purpose of annihilating them. The new western border town (Cologne) fell quickly although grabbing Berlin took a couple of more turns. I didn't take any chances; I allied everyone in the world against Germany, using luxes and cash to get them on board. I was worried they would take Leipzig but AI did the AI thing and didn't take a single German city with their huge armies because they were throwing Medieval Infantry without trebs against fortified pikes in cities. My 10 treb stack was enough to reduce the German cities and take them easily, although hat tip to the Greeks for weakening them. Germany had a rump couple of cities on islands, and when my 20 turns of obligation to my allies ended, I got peace plus cash and an island city that I periodically heard from. Someone finished off Germany somewhere a couple of turns later.

Next we targeted our good friends and neighbors Korea. By taking the German empire, we were disturbingly long and skinny. Korea was my neighbor to the north, with several cities close enough to my cap to be useful. Once again, we bought a lot of allies, this time pretty cheaply. Four knights, 10 trebs, and 4 MI were enough to take the two close cities I wanted. I would have been satisfied with just that but our buddies in Persia took out Seoul! Weakened by surrounding armies, I pushed on and wiped out all but two of the Korean cities before getting peace (I intended to keep the Koreans around for a bit). They were around long enough to hit the Industrial Era from my gifts, but Alexander - still fighting years after I made peace - wiped them out. We were down to the Ottomans, the Persians, and the Greeks, who were the largest civ.

When we flipped research back on, it wasn't hard to beat the AI to techs like Physics, Magnetism and Theory of Gravity. I pulled them into the Industrial Era (including the Koreans), but Korea was the only one with Steam Power and wanted too much for it. So I researched it on my own in 6 turns and sold it at a huge profit to the Greeks, who were still warring with Korea, who had it. I thought I had a slower than average tech pace with lots of 6 and 7 turn stuff, even in a well timed Golden Age from building SoZ (I was surprised by it). But it was the same old Fascist path for AI, so we did Electricity, sold it, got SciMeth easily and had a well timed prebuild for ToE, getting AT and Electronics. I then hit Industrialization a turn after the AI, but got to the Corporation first, and then got Replaceable Parts for Atomic Theory. The AI didn't beat me to a tech after that at all, even though I was hoping they'd pick Flight. I did Steel, Refining (got it 2 turns before they did), Combustion, the whole works. We hit the Modern Age with Flight in 1250, wound up paying 10k gold for Fission, finished the UN the next turn, declared war on Greece (#2, but still less than 25%), allied Persia and the Ottomans and we finished with a Diplo victory in 1255. That misses 3rd place by 4 turns, which is largely explained by the AI's not teching quickly in the industrial age. I took 7 turns on flight after motorized transport having sold Greece Combustion but Alex researched weird stuff instead of Flight so I had to do all 7 turns when I was expecting no more than 2-3 given that they had Combustion by the time I started MT. I also detoured to research Economics for 4 turns to get Smith's, which saved me a lot on the trade market.

This was very much an SGL/ map victory since I had Gems, Wines, Ivory all near my core, as well as Iron and horses. I never was concerned about resources, and wiping out the Germans gave me furs and spices for 5 luxes decently early. We later stole incense on a culture border play from the Persians. Silks and Dyes were available via trade, so happiness was not much of an issue. I popped an early settlement that was too far from the core to make a difference, and had to be gifted to the Ottomans during the Korean war (useful for teleporting the troops in it out of harm's way). The Koreans took it and then I took it back from the Koreans about 5 turns later.

Here's the empire.

diplo victory core.jpg
 
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Correction - I missed 3rd place by 3 turns. 1230 is 3 turns from 1255 (1230, 1240, 1250, 1255). That's Economics, which I didn't need but I researched because I wanted Smith's to reduce my costs, which I also didn't need because the AI were paying me so much.
 
Standard Warlord 100K Attempt - Contemplating Mass Murder

On my Machiavelli challenge, my 100k victory is my lowest ranking if my current games are accepted. I only submitted one 100k game (St/Mon) in the past, and I remember thinking it was a chore. I think I submitted on an empty table, since all of the entries above mine are after my submission. It's not a horrible date - 1685 - but it's not great. I was more of a Dom player, so my Cultural 100k game was just me doing a Dom where I built culture. My lowest rank on the Octathlon is Warlord, so we've got to take that on, and Standard for map size. So we look at the Warlord Standard 100k, and we've got 6 scores worse than my own Monarch Standard 100k, so since I think I'm a better player now, I think I can do it.

Reading through multiple threads/articles on 100k, I'm convinced that the path forward is not through the Temple of Artemis for free temples, but by slaughtering citizens. For a Religious civ, the math is elegant - a city grows to size 2, has 10 shields in the box, and you slaughter a citizen and you've got a 2 culture temple that doubles to a 4 culture temple in 1000 years. If you chop a forest, you don't even need 10 shields in the box! Of course you need food to birth these citizens, so an Agricultural trait works best. And so our eyes focus on the Celts. No surprise, there are a LOT of Celtic entries for 100k.

My plan is to get to a core of 5 cities as soon as possible, with 2 settler factories (1 in the cap), 1 worker factory, and 1 Pyramids pre build and 1 Hanging Gardens pre-build. We aren't too worried about luxes because we are Warlord level, and we aren't worried about the AI, either. So the only tech we really want are Iron Working (Gallic Swordsmen), Math (Cats), Literature (Libraries), Construction (Aqueducts, Colosseums), Engineering (Trebs and river crossing), Feudalism (gov't), Monotheism (Caths), and Education (Unis). All other techs are for Wonders and Culture only, or for war. We will churn out 10 GS and 6-10 cats and rage through whatever AI are present to reach the Dom limit as soon as possible. Then we will ICS the damned place to build as many cities as possible and slaughter, slaughter, slaugher citizens in Feudalism. A couple of cities will crank out Wonders for cultural purposes only, so we'll get the Great Library, Sistine, JS Bach, etc.

That's the plan. Our goal is to beat 1630 AD to get at least 5th place.
 
A couple of cities will crank out Wonders for cultural purposes only, so we'll get the Great Library, Sistine, JS Bach,

I played for Large Warlord 130k entry last summer, but didn't finish and dropped it. I built wonders. I thought I would prefer that. Except, later it seemed that the cost of most wonders ends up trading off a lot for cultural potential. For example, if you sink 400 shields into The Great Library, maybe it took 40 turns for a core city to build that, and grew from size 4 to 7 in 15 turns, and maybe another turn of growth. Except, each settler costs 30 shields and 10 turns of growth for spots with no food bonus. So if the Great library takes 40 turns to build, an alternative use of that 40 turns could be 4 settlers, or 3 settlers and a worker. 3 settlers getting a start on their temples almost equals the 6 culture per turn of The Great Library for a religious civ. Then those cities sooner make a library or cathedral for more culture to beat out The Great Library. Also, they can help with research. And your total food for one's empire grows with more cities growing earlier.

Anyways, maybe you prefer the slower method of Great Wonders and will play in as a silly manner as I did and then not finish later.
 
Anyways, maybe you prefer the slower method of Great Wonders and will play in as a silly manner as I did and then not finish later.
Very good thoughts. Great Library is 12 culture per turn in 1000 years and at some point your core cities are so far away from your borders that pumping out settlers for the long walk before RR'ing becomes an issue. I'm assuming that I'll be whipping some settlers from size 4 cities to generate further growth. JS Bach also helps with happiness, as does Sistine's, given that I'm going to whip so many cathedrals :) I'm assuming as my borders spread out, the core cities will only be producing stuff that gets disbanded in outer cities once they build their culture + marketplaces.

Agreed that more settlers are probably better than Wonders for culture sake.
 
Well, I am in turn 184 (710 AD) and it's....not going as planned? I have a total culture of 17,190 with 82 cities and I am pumping out just over 400 culture per turn. That is increasing at a rate of about 4-7 culture per turn (some from doubling, some from new buildings) so I assume I will be at at 500 culture per turn by the year 900.

At my current 400 culture per turn pace, adding no culture whatsover, I'm at an 1850 finish, which is WAY slower than I thought. If I get up to 500 culture per tun by turn 200, and 25000 total culture, we are looking at a turn 348 (1768 AD) finish. Also way slower than I thought.

Adding 100 cpt every 20 turns gets me this math: 26,000 ish by turn 204, 37,000 ish by turn 224, 50,000 by turn 244, 65,000 ish by 264, 80,000 ish by 284, and a finish around turn 300 (1550 AD). That would beat my 1650 goal, with some amount of leeway (20 turns), but.....

The problem is cash. Cold hard cash. I am at a 50% tax rate and just barely keeping my head above water (40% science so I can get Steam Power, but it's going slow). Unit costs are non-existent but we have a heavy burden of maintenance per turn through all those slaved temples, libraries, and caths. As a religious civ, slaving a cath is more efficient than libraries in a non-productive city since it provides a salutary happiness benefit. Once JS Bach finishes in a turn (my cities are really non productive), I can set the slider to 0% luxuries and be OK. But now I need to produce 2 tax men for each temple + library I massacre. I really need to get to Steam Power to pack on the food necessary to create the specialists to do that, and we just finished Astronomy and Banking, and our pace is VERY slow without the Republic bonus.

I am thinking about losing 800 culture on 2 turns of anarchy and swapping to Republic to end the slaughter and build up the war chest and switch to buying / disbanding troops into temples and caths. I am very well roaded so I am assuming I can do 4 turn research and still generate 70-100 gpt given the size of my empire. I have markets in most of the core.

If I could get CivAssist 2 all these questions would be answered!
 
One thing that you can do is build wealth while you wait for your population to grow.
Example
Take a town that has just rushed its temple. It now needs to grow to size 5 to rush a library/cathedral. Do not put shields into the building until it is ready to grow to size 5, then put one shield in the bin and then rush.
This is sometimes slightly slower, if you could accumulate 20 shields and thus spare a pop point, but it will keep your economy afloat.

Also, I think the maintenance costs for libraries and cathedrals are different, so building libraries first will save on money at the cost of happiness.
 
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One thing that you can do is build wealth while you wait for your population to grow.
Example
Take a town that has just rushed its temple. It now needs to grow to size 5 to rush a library/cathedral. Do not put shields into the building until it is ready to grow to size 5, then put one shield in the bin and then rush.
This is sometimes slightly slower, if you could accumulate 20 shields and thus spare a pop point, but it will keep your economy afloat.

CKS, I think you just ordered the execution of a lot of Celts. :lol: That is a great idea in addition to the specialists. The cities are growing at a pretty good clip (will be even faster with RR when I get it), so it's just a few turns extra growth anyway.

The other thing I've been thinking about is slaughtering some Courthouses to get extra cash / shields. Is it worth it?

One thing I've been doing for giggles is keeping track of how many citizens I've killed in the city name. So if city 30 whips 3 citizens to build a cathedral, the City name becomes "30- BC 3" BC meaning "Body Count". I have cities that have a body count of 7 at this point.
 
Example
Take a town that has just rushed its temple. It now needs to grow to size 5 to rush a library/cathedral.
Ok, now I have a math problem. What is my sequence on the whip? At pop 5, I would wait until pop 6 and then with 20 shields in the box whip Medieval Infantry (1 dead) and then the Cathedral (2 dead).

In the Medieval Era, what is my whip sequence? I guess I could do 2 dead for MI, but what's my 60 shield whip? I can't whip a Granary because I have the Pyramid and they are cheaper for an Ag civ. I guess Muskets? I guess I need Gunpowder for that.
 
Also, one thing I believe is that I just don't have enough cities at this time. I should have been producing settlers out of 6-8 cities. I'd be much better off with 120 cities obviously. Also, I should have gifted the English Monarchy so they wouldn't slaughter citizens for spearmen and I could keep rather than auto-raze cities.

If I don't hit 1630, I'm playing again, and the next time, I would keep the Celts but (1) go arid, I've cleaned out too many marshes / jungles; (2) more settler factories; (3) build a bigger Gallic Sword force (9 wasn't good enough - took some losses); (4) gift monarchy to AI enemies as soon as I got it to prevent pop rushing.
 
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Also, I think the maintenance costs for libraries and cathedrals are different, so building libraries first will save on money at the cost of happiness.
Damnit. I switched from Libraries to Caths and forgot about that. I can switch back.
 
Also, I think the maintenance costs for libraries and cathedrals are different, so building libraries first will save on money at the cost of happiness.

The civiliopedia has libraries costing 1 gold per turn, and cathedrals as costing 2 gold per turn.

CKS, I think you just ordered the execution of a lot of Celts.

I'm not sure that the brutality of rushing buildings leads to the workers deaths in all cases. Some of those workers might just get away from the city and it's influence, all the while spreading tales of how brutal the overseers were. Then the next generation might not suffer from "inter-generational trauma" from how their parents were treated or a sense of historical guilt, but instead suffer from unhappiness, because others just had to get away from that brutality. Or more likely they experience fear, since those brutal overseers might still be around.

In the Medieval Era, what is my whip sequence? I guess I could do 2 dead for MI, but what's my 60 shield whip? I can't whip a Granary because I have the Pyramid and they are cheaper for an Ag civ. I guess Muskets? I guess I need Gunpowder for that.

Yes. I remember comments from years ago talking about or advising using musketmen like this also.
 
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