Blackbetsy HOF Attempts

[BlackBetsy]

2. Spawning at least one army on your homeland. Probably try for a 3 defensive army if knights or cavlary available or spears in the worst case. 3 units only for all armies, unless it's the last fight. Then land that army when landing along with an attack force. Or with explorers to pillage out the AIs.

I feel like 100% of my defensive MGL die before my next turn. Counterattacks generating MGLs, sure, but I never seem to get a surviving MGL if its triggered by an elite unit winning on defense.

 

[BlackBetsy]

So we finished the game this evening on the early side of what I expected...1320. The main reason for this is that Germany finally connected their 2d saltpeter, traded it for a tech, I built 3 Cossacks to attack one of the remaining Babs cities (they would be no threat in a counterstrike), and so we finally got this:

The Golden Age sped up my research and productivity quite a bit....all of my aqueducts got built, research was 5 turns on max instead of 7, so it saved me probably 6-10 turns. The Germans, who had a MPP with me, declared war against the Byz 5 turns before the end of the game, which I wasn't prepared for.

I did wind up mis-planning the UN build and the Palace completed in St. Petersburg. No problem, however, as I just switched Moscow to build the Palace, timing it to finish 1 turn after Motorized Transportation.

We used "Whats the Big Picture" to gift the Germans into the Modern Era and Bismarck got Fission....but wouldn't trade it for everything I had (455 gpt +1783). I guess I could try turning all my citizens into taxmen to see if that would do it, but I just kind of gave up. I made peace with the Byz (Germans were still at war with them), and gifted them into the Modern Era where they got Computers. They wouldn't trade for all my gold, either. Arrrrgggggh. Luckily the RNG gods were good for me and I pulled Fission as my tech. I declared war against the Byz, flipped Moscow to the UN for a 1 turn build. Bismarck wouldn't give me a Military Alliance! I think me breaking my peace treaty with the Byz ruined my rep (should have gotten a white peace). I gifted Bismarck some stuff and got him Polite at least. But he was still at war with Theodora. I got his vote instead of an abstention and we won the UN Vote 2-1.

Theodora did research Rep Parts for me, but I had to research Steel AND Refining, Flight AND Motorized Transportation. She even chose to research Electronics on her own! I should have traded/given it to her but I was holding onto it for Flight! If she had done the research and traded me those techs, I could have finished before 1300.

I only researched Literature as a non-mandatory tech, mostly to catch up on techs in the AA. My research in the Industrial Age wasn't as fast as I wanted....lots of 7-8 turn stuff. I guess had I done a better job of taking cities, I might have gotten the research faster, mostly through conquered specialists.

As it is, I beat archphoenix's 4th place game by 1 turn, which is pretty good. That's my top finish in the HOF at this point, if the game is accepted.

All in all, a fun game with a good result. This was more of a map victory for me, since I had my own huge "backyard" I didn't have to worry about the AI taking.

 

[BlackBetsy]

@Spoonwood, the Large Deity Conquest table has only two entries, thats a nice target. Both are in the early 900's by different players. But Russia and India! Cossacks and Elephants, I guess.

 

[Spoonwood]

I feel like 100% of my defensive MGL die before my next turn. Counterattacks generating MGLs, sure, but I never seem to get a surviving MGL if its triggered by an elite unit winning on defense.

I think I wasn't clear. I'm not saying try to generate an MGL by having a defender win a battle. More like let the AIs come towards your borders or just into your borders. Then kill those units with offensive units. If they have no horses, the issues lie in having enough attack units/artillery units to kill any invaders, and what terrain the AIs will come onto. Though that might end up a bit complicated depending on borders. Though the AIs also prefer to attack more weakly defended targets if they are not too far away.

Anyways, whatever you try, good luck!

 

[BlackBetsy]

Some additional next day reflections:

(1) Playing this for Diplo may have slowed down what could have been a fast SS victory. The AI were of limited usage in research in the Industrial Age. I could have wiped out the Germans and Babylonians relatively easily (I left Babs with one city on the continent, which Germany took). The Germans really only had 6 cities and the troops I had that took Babylon could have easily punched through Germany. Babylon was pretty food rich, and Germany had a saltpeter resource I lacked. A few Cossacks - which are OP when combined with Trebs/Cannon since they attack multiple times per turn would have burned down the Byzantine empire and left them as not a realistic space race challenger. I could have maxxed out specialists and done a lot of four turn research in the late industrial age and modern era. A 1300's SS launch would not have been out of the question (I mean, I had Fission at 1315 already). I just would have needed to avoid the Domination limit.

(2) My starting location was way more important to my victory than my game play (or, it made my game play easier). I was able to grab 5 (!) luxes easily (Ivory next to Moscow, wines, dyes, gems, incense) through early expansion and I didn't have to fight for them. I didn't even need markets in my size 6 towns! Later it turns out I captured the right city to give me Coal, and Iron was close as well. I'm pretty sure this set up made the game more like Monarch level for me than Demigod.

(3) SoZ is overpowered as well. Free dominant units in the ancient era. 3 attack + extra HP in a 2 defense world just can't be understated. Having the only ivory was an additional benefit.

(4) Popping the 3950 settler was such a decisive advantage. I was never behind. I didn't pop many techs, so Russia wasn't that much of an advantage, but I don't know if I beat 1500 without 3900 BC St. Petersburg.....if I win the game at all.

Ivory + popped settler...you can play a game 10 turns and know if you have a super advantage. The question is whether doing that becomes a crutch?

 

[Spoonwood]

The aggressive approach for spaceship launches will get your research down in turns sure.

However, when I think about fast spaceship finishes, I think back to archphoenix talking about his result in a gauntlet a while back.

I just experimented with gifting cities and found this:

But, on a previous attempt they had tax collectors instead of scientists.

Here's pregifted city:

After Gifting it looks like this:

Getting AIs to use scientist thus appears a bit complicated at best. With a courthouse and police station, and mined squares for production, they might generate a fair amount of beakers once they get around to putting in science multiplier buildings. Though, yea, they will put in defenders at least first, so that would have to wait. Getting in courthouses and police stations would take away time from research earlier also, so it's not entirely clear that gifting cities could, in any case, end up beneficial to the overall tech pace.

One thing I remember from my spaceship games was purchasing research labs though before I had completed The Internet. I guess if you have an SGL, and some corrupt city, it could make sense to gift that city to some AI, so that they instantly get research laboratories in their core.

 

[BlackBetsy]

@Spoonwood I read that Gauntlet thread with great interest. I note that at the Deity level, you can rely a LOT more on AI to research the tech. I felt that at demigod I might get more out of the AI, but I think I wound up researching Masonry, Writing, Philosophy (missed the extra tech by 1 turn), and Currency in the AA, and then I did Chemistry, Education, Banking, Physics, ToG, Metallurgy, Magnetism in the MA, and then Industrialization, Electricity, SciMeth, Corp, Refining, Steel, Combustion, Mass Production, Flight and Motorized (plus free AT and Electronics) in the IA. 20 techs overall? I might have missed an AA tech or MedAge tech. If you can truly "partner" with 3-4 AIs, it is reason to think that you can research maybe 12 tech overalls (Maybe 2 in the AA, maybe 3 in the Med Age, and maybe 4-5 in the industrial era).

If I played Deity/ Sid, my biggest question is the skill in being able to buy tech from AI. I've seen @SuedecivIII's Gandhi Sid video so I know how to do the resource/lux + tech for GPT trade and then pillage the only road into your capital trick (although I only have done it in a Deity game once) and that can get you from behind on research. I don't see that disallowed on HOF games (in fact, the GPT for Upfront is specifically allowed) BUT man, that seems like a very aggressive exploit to me. You have to have a trading partner though! None of my HOF games have used that. I haven't been able to generate the gpt to do legitimate trades for a lot of the techs absent that trick, and if you can't trade for a monopoly tech from one AI, then you can't earn the GPT back from other AIs. Maybe if GPT for Upfront is specifically allowed by the HOF, it is worth thinking about at the Deity level for a SS/Diplo game. You still need expansion on a Pangaea to have a big enough core to build the SS components. You can't trade for Lux+Tech unless you have Great Lighthouse if you are playing Continents/Archipelago.

I'm thinking about that Small Deity Diplo table with only 3 entries.....

 

[Spoonwood]

If I played Deity/ Sid, my biggest question is the skill in being able to buy tech from AI. I've seen @SuedecivIII's Gandhi Sid video so I know how to do the resource/lux + tech for GPT trade and then pillage the only road into your capital trick (although I only have done it in a Deity game once) and that can get you from behind on research. I don't see that disallowed on HOF games (in fact, the GPT for Upfront is specifically allowed) BUT man, that seems like a very aggressive exploit to me. You have to have a trading partner though! None of my HOF games have used that. I haven't been able to generate the gpt to do legitimate trades for a lot of the techs absent that trick, and if you can't trade for a monopoly tech from one AI, then you can't earn the GPT back from other AIs. Maybe if GPT for Upfront is specifically allowed by the HOF, it is worth thinking about at the Deity level for a SS/Diplo game. You still need expansion on a Pangaea to have a big enough core to build the SS components. You can't trade for Lux+Tech unless you have Great Lighthouse if you are playing Continents/Archipelago.

GPT for upfront followed eventually by trade route pillaging is allowed and has gotten used for several Sid entries by Gyathaar (not by pillaging roads directly adjacent to the capital, but still similar in pillaging the trade route to the capital), Ignas, Drazek, and myself. Blackhat has a Deity entry using it. I haven't used it on Deity (so far at least). Actually, first time I used it, I think I didn't use the capital at all. Using the capital just makes things simpler for pillaging purposes.

Also, I feel it worthwhile to mention that deliberate trade route pillage is not legal for the GOTM or COTM competitions. The closest thing they have, I think, is the "leave or declare" tactic after signing a deal to pay gpt to AI for technology or other hard goods.

Spoiler :

Other options may include building The Great Library to catch up in tech (it can get built on Sid with pre-building sometimes if you're at say 250 shields, or better, in the box for the palace and the AIs have no other wonders in progress, you only need 150 shields to finish it, while the AIs only need 160 shields and maybe even with a golden age they have no city powerful enough to finish it due to irrigation or no one has a golden age... the human player moves first also). Selling tech immediately for gpt or gold from the AIs on the turn after learning some tech may be possible. Maybe using that gold to purchase libraries and univiersities. Then trying to learn least common AI techs first and trading/selling. I remember once almost growing broke in the late industrial age on a Deity Standard Spaceship game and selling off my last iron, but then getting something like Nationalism as my free tech and then having no similar trouble researching until launching.

Espionage is another possibility. I know some people have been confused about it before, but stealing technology via the diplomacy screen becomes possible once Writing is avaialable. It may or may not be more expensive than purchasing technology.

In a COTM competition a while back, on Sid, I. Larkin also used loans for gold at some point and then did maximum research with those lump sums, and managed to sell technology before going broke apparently. At least aggressive, the trade rate for gold is 1 human empire gold per turn for 18 gold.

Loans combined with trade route pillaging comes as where things can get even more powerful. For instance, let's say that France has 10 extra gpt that they would pay for gold. I'd loan out that 10 gpt for 180 gold. Then I come back to Japan and pay them maybe 30 gpt for silks and that 180 gold. Then cut the trade route. The 10 gpt still ends up in tact, but our empire has the gold back. Then on the next turn (or possibly the same turn if we have enough workers and pillagers) our empire has 10 more gpt to purchase hard goods from anyone.

There do exist two catches though:

1. If you export some luxury or resource to an AI and pillage your trade route to the capital, your reputation will get trashed by failing to supply the luxury or resource to an AI. So, if there's good reason to export some AI a luxury or resource, there's a consequence.

2. Loans can only take out gpt of what the AI can make. Suppose Gilgamesh has no gpt at the start of a turn. Then we inject gpt to Sumeria first by say trading them 20 gpt for silks, then taking out a bigger loan of gpt including at least some of that 20 gpt, followed by another deal like 50 gpt for wines and the gold back, followed by a trade route pillage is illegal. Why?

"Giving the AI more gpt that you can afford or accepting more gpt than the AI can afford.

This is disallowed as it results in putting 'free' money into the international economy. While fixed for C3C, it is banned for all versions for the sake of consistency."

In that case, we would have accepted gpt from Sumeria which was more than they could afford at the end of the turn.

Also, Gandhi can declare war, because his traders wouldn't walk a few miles or so without a road. That allows possible variants like winning a conquest game without every having declared war on anyone.

You can't trade for Lux+Tech unless you have Great Lighthouse if you are playing Continents/Archipelago.

And even with the Great Lighthouse on an 80% archipelago map there may still not exist a trade route possible until Magentism or Navigation becomes avaialble. But, I don't know. Do you need to learn Navigation or just the AIs?

Not having a luxury or resource avialable might come as overcomable there though. There's information in the screen with leaderheads about their existing trade deals. Like, let's say that Portugal has two wines spotted in their territory. It reads 'wines 0' in their potential trade deals on the trading table. They have some line suggesting that they are trading something with say The Dutch. Maybe there's another possibility also. So, then we might declare war on The Dutch. Then sign Portugal into war against The Dutch. Then whatever Portugal traded with The Dutch no longer applies. So maybe Portugal has wines for trading now. Or maybe they had some other deal going on, but the lines reduce the number of possibilities.

Or maybe The Dutch lie next to us and 20 turns of war seems out of the question for the moment. But 20 turns of war with Portugal is another matter. So, our empire declares on Portugal. Then we sign the Dutch against Portugal. What will happen to those wines if they were trading to The Dutch? Will they end up avialble in 20 turns?

Also, if an AI doesn't have any resource or luxury on the start of the turn, there may exist another possibility for getting them a luxury or resource. I think I learned it from looking at Gyathaar's save.

Also, and I think it important to note the following:

1. The HoF has more entries, since trade route pillaging is legal.

2. There exist plenty of Demigod and Deity tables where the top spot does not seem likely to get bested by some entry using trade route pillaging in my opinion. Tiny Sid 20k comes as another example. Possibly all 20k tables, if you ask me. It may get you techs and technology, but if the AIs have technology, they can quickly build wonders.

3. Even if optimal early for some maps, it stops being optimal at some point. A non-industrious civ would need 16 pillages, and then complete rebuilding of roads and railroads and mines or irrigation if maximum production or food growth comes as more advantageous.

4. Another good example comes as Moonsinger's 88553 entry, which from what I can tell, does not use it from the saves I've looked at. But, I have an entry with 88165 points where I used it extensively. I scored lower, I think mostly, because she had a better domination limit. I don't recall doing anything deliberately strange to keep my score lower for that game.

So, it can be an option for sure. It comes as a powerful way to make winning easier. But, it won't guarantee best results always even on Sid. And the lower the level, the more likely it becomes it has much more limited use or no use at all.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Thanks @Spoonwood. I often use the GL tactic at higher levels but didn't feel like I needed it in the Demigod Diplo game I just played. I did very good early trading and by the time I hit Republic, I felt pretty good about my research vs. the AI.

I just played a Deity game until 640 BC where I got the GL at 670. I didn't even have Iron Working. When I got IW through the GL, I found that I didn't have any iron for my immortals. Gahhhhhhhh. So much for the strategy. Also, I only could get 14 cities in my area, being boxed in a smaller corner of the Pangaea by the Ottomans (who took my 3rd lux by 1 turn) and Sumeria. I was going to use the Immortals to take Sumeria down......sigh, Ctrl-Shift-Q. I had my self set up for road pillaging so I could get "free" techs too.

I chose Persia for Industrious (faster roads and mines) + Science. At Deity, popping much out of goody huts is low value. Ottomans, Sumerians and Babylonians as opponents - no one with Alphabet or Masonry for early trades.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Well, second attempt at a small Deity Pangaea and I am getting my but kicked again. I managed to trade Masonry, Alphabet and Writing for decent stuff this time before hitting Literature and flipping my pre-build to GL and turning off research. 350 BC I have only 15 cities, Education just burned the GL after my 6 revolution to Republic and once I hit Republic....I got 32 turn research because I had -14 in unit costs and sucking wind on commerce.

(1) Only one luxury means I am hurting and using the slider. My last attempt at least had 3 luxes. Not sure I wasn't in better shape.

(2) My targets the Sumerians just passed a bunch of Med Inf past me. Because GL didn't hit until they were in the Medieval Era, I never rushed Immortals on spears. I never had math to build cats. Perspolis was doing 6 turn settler/warrior, Pasagardae the GL pre-build, and you can see the other ones absolutely sucking wind on production. I think I messed up city placement.

(3) SoZ is really helpful to avoid producing units, wish I had it, but that's another pre-build you have to do.

Deity AI is just in your face so fast. I do wonder if a tighter city placement rather than a walk to claim land as I did is a better strategy.

I uploaded my .sav if anyone wants to critique.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I wonder if the Sumerians are OP as an opponent because of Ag. Both times they were especially in my face / blocking me. Cheap settlers means they just need food to grow and they get a bonus. I may try to be the Sumerians myself for the Ag benefit, which means I won't play against them. I don't like the idea of Immortals around, so I might go with the Byz or Germans.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Played as the Sumerians with a 4 turn settler factory in Ur, access to Ivory for SoZ and I basically saw this + Literature in his tech list 1 turn before I got Literature, and so did all the other 3 AI (sigh). I never had any techs to trade all game. They already hit Alphabet and Writing before I got there. Are there any Civs that are Agricultural, Scienftic, Commercial, and Industrious? Thats the one I need to play.

We are going to be 12 towns @ 1000 bc which is generally pretty good but I am just cooked on tech.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Oh, Catherine didn't have Literature but she wouldn't even give me two starting techs for Literature.

 

[Spoonwood]

(0) It looked like you had very few workers from your Persia picture. The military advisor says 3 native workers. So, where do you have cities train workers? I like how you have Sardis putting out a worker. More cities putting out workers this early can help with research soon enough.

It seems that you take the time to manage a settler factory in your capital early. But, a settler factory early could also occasionally put out a worker. Or after the settler training phase is over it can put out some workers (especially before revolting to Republic). With your current setup though it would put out workers in three turns. If you move the hill tile to a grassland, Persepolis would produce a worker in 2 turns with 12 shields produced.

You have emphasize production set to "no", even in your capital. If you have it set to "yes", you can get extra production the turn a city grows if you have the city having at least 3 surplus food I think (maybe it's 4 surplus food). That will imply less food used after growth, if no tiles swapped. And I suppose you might worry that micromanaging all cities can easily turn things into a slog. However, your capital won't have corruption, and micromanaging it would just be one city. It can pay off significantly if it means some earlier workers or settlers with the same amount of growth.

How could Persepolis get optimized early with emphasize production set to "yes" for shields and food?

Spoiler :

There's some possibility of having an average of 10 shields per turn in a city like this with 2 turn growth below size 7 or 4 turn growth once past size 7. If the tiles the grassland tiles in Antioch get moved elsewhere, Persepolis could produce 9 shields per turn at size 5. Then when growing from size 5 to 6 it could produce 12 shields. Move the hill tile when it grows, and it can easily then average out above 10 shields per turn. So, it could function as a 6 turn immortal + 3 worker factory with another mined grassland tile.

But, wouldn't we want barracks in it? Persepolis if it had 7 shields per turn at size 4 can produce 10 shields when it grows to size 5. How could we get it down to size 4 but have 5 food in the granary part of the box? Have Persepolis put out a settler in 3 turns starting at size 5 with no granary food in the box, and getting 5 food each turn. Then Persepolis can produce barracks in 4 turns while getting up to size 6. Then it could put out 3 workers. With food managed, it still could then reset to size 5 for another immortal.

Persepolis might similarly make a library and then put out 3 workers followed by the immortal + 3 workers 6 turn idea.

Workers from Persepolis could get used to develop the empire. Or, since they can get made in every 2 turns from Persepolis, they could grow other cities, especially those above size 7.

4) You have all those warriors and immortals, but only one veteran. Barracks for putting out veterans still end up worth it.

5) I noticed the entertainer in Pasagrade. I do think 30% luxury slider here would end up worth it.

6) Larger cities would come as more desireable. There's a blue line between Sumeria and the Ottomans. Instanbul has an extra wine source. So, maybe the Ottomans are trading wines to Sumeria? Sometimes there's a small window where a luxury can get traded for from an AI, before they will trade it away to an AI. Though, I would guess in this case that window didn't exist with the Ottomans.

Babylon has two extra luxuries once they can get a trading partner. Getting luxuries earlier rather than later is good for doing research or stacking up gold.

How do you get those luxuries? Going to need a trade network, so going to need more workers.

I think even a few turns of Perspolis putting out workers every 2 turns at 6 shields per turn would end up worth it. Especially, if it consistenly had 5 food per turn.

 

[Spoonwood]

Oh, Catherine didn't have Literature but she wouldn't even give me two starting techs for Literature.

I will guess here that Catherine will soon learn Literature via her research. Maybe even the next turn.

 

[BlackBetsy]

That is good advice. I have never used the governor before, I will see what I can do with it. I have always thought that I don't make enough workers; but it seems like the balance of workers vs. units is hard to manage. Also, I joined a bunch of workers into Pasagardae because it didn't have a great source of food to help its population. I think I joined 4 workers to ger it up to 8 before it died down.

One thing I've never been good at is getting multiple settler factories going. With Ag civs, it's easier.

I just don't like the Sumer UU and its chance of triggering a bad golden age.

I'm going to try to keep my cities a little tighter for less corruption. I may put in a temple in my Great Library city. What I really need is (1) capital as settler factory (2) Great Library city; (3) one other settler pump; and (4) worker pump.

Getting 4 cities up and running that fast isn't easy, though. Have to have a good map with 2 luxes minimum, I think.

 

[Spoonwood]

For the Persia map, you went with 3 frenemies instead of 4 or 5. For getting more luxuries on the map, the more AIs the more luxuries exist somewhere on the map. So, I think it's easier to get luxuries for your empire if you have maximum AIs. Trading for them as a backup if you feel it better to engage in trade route pillaging and not quit on a map also likely ends up easier with maximum opponents. Purchasing technology will end up easier due to more AIs also, I think. Furthermore, AIs using gpt to purchase technology from other AIs happens more often. AIs tend to end up generating more gold that way also.

I guess on the other hand, the tech pace ends up faster, so trying a steal from the tech leader could end up a bit more costly.

 

[BlackBetsy]

For the Persia map, you went with 3 frenemies instead of 4 or 5. For getting more luxuries on the map, the more AIs the more luxuries exist somewhere on the map.

This is a real quandary on a Small world. 4 or 5 AI means more luxes and cheaper trades but means my territory is going to be cramped. The more I think about it, the more I had the most favorable map imaginable on that Tiny Demigod map. A choke point east of my core that gave me no competition for land to my west/northwest + 4 luxes on a Tiny map with 3 AI.

Suede's videos on Deity are always instructive, I am going to watch some more to see the early moves he makes. Currently, it amazes me that people can win easily/casually on Deity. I don't even understand SirPleb's Sid game...which seems to be based on generating massive numbers of Armies, which you can only generate by going to war with the AI, which seems really difficult before you have Armies....

I am also on an insane SGL drought.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I downloaded CivAssist II to give me a boost but it doesn't seem to load the autosave file. Running Windows 11, bad at tech (sigh). Looks like I have to do the MM on my own.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Today I learned you can destroy Great Wonders through bombardment by Trebuchets? My trebs are doing a good job killing everything BUT the troops in Akkad.