C-IV Warlords SGOTM 04 Maintenance Thread

[Big Pig]

making other civs capitulate or become peaceful vassal of Ghandi was no problem... same with making Ghandi become a peaceful vassal of another civ..
...
Since I found out what would happen ... (also after vassal was released again), I saw no reason to disable vassals

So, to save us all lots of fruitless testing, if Gandhi peacefully becomes someone's vassal, are you saying that this does not result in peace with Gandhi (once we have gotten peace with the Master civ)?

 

[Lexad]

It should, cause Gandhi should follow master's diplomacy - both peacefula nd military master.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I have to say that this thread is making me glad I decided to take a pass on this round. It seems like less and less fun, as people spend more and more hours digging into the exact intricacies of the vassalage and war and peace system.

 

[Gyathaar]

It should, cause Gandhi should follow master's diplomacy - both peacefula nd military master.

Looks like my tests on this case was flawed too.. decided to dig into the SDK first this time.. and this is definately the case...

So looks like if Ghandi becomes someones vassal, and you are or become at peace with the master, then you end up at peace with Ghandi...

 

[DeafDolphin]

So looks like if Ghandi becomes someones vassal, and you are or become at peace with the master, then you end up at peace with Ghandi...

Just make a rule, as you proposed before, stating that you must always remain at war with Ghandi and his master. That would solve the problem, hopefully.

 

[sooooo]

Just disable vassals. Seriously, that's the best way to do it.

 

[Thrallia]

but we want to be able to vassalize people, and Gyathaar wants vassals enabled.

Just accept that either someone will somehow manage to get Gandhi peaceful through some crazy vassalage manipulation, or that there will be a rule that if he capitulates to some other AI, you'll just have to declare war on him again.

I too am curious if Gandhi's master goes to space, does that mean Gandhi does as well?

 

[sooooo]

It's not "crazy vassalage manipulation" - I think it will be quite common. In this game I think there will be lots of times when teams will share a common enemy with Gandhi. If the team+Gandhi alliance does well in the war, it is very probable that the common enemy will capitulate to Gandhi. I thought about this quite a lot when thinking about tactics for my team, and it's a really big problem. It puts whole strategies into the hands of the vassal gods - trying to be gamey and manipulate the vassal capitulation rules. Vassals need to be off to make the game bearable.

 

[Thrallia]

I think if Gandhi builds spaceship parts on his own, the game will be bearable no matter what else happens, after reading up on the Civ3 version.

 

[Big Pig]

This brings up another question: If Ghandi is vassaled and his master launches, does that count as Gandhi also launching or not?

I too am curious if Gandhi's master goes to space, does that mean Gandhi does as well?

No. Vassals can still win games by Space Victory, which results in a loss for the master. It follows therefore that a space victory for the master is a loss for the vassal

 

[Gyathaar]

Been digging into the SDK code.. seems it might be a bug that you can break the locked war by becoming a vassal..
There is code that prevents a civ from becoming a vassal if the civ is locked at peace, and the potential master is at war with whoever they are locked at peace with.. but the reverse code for locked at war is missing..

 

[leif erikson]

It seems to me that one of our objectives in playing this game is to protect Gandhi from becoming a Vassal through our Blood Pact. If Gandhi picks up a Vassal, then it is not a problem. If Gandhi becomes someone else's Vassal, then it could be a problem. That problem is easily solved by the requirement to be at war with Gandhi, our Blood Pact.

 

[AlanH]

Let's cut this debate, as I believe it will distract from the true goals of this game.

I think we all know that the objective in this game is to get Gandhi to the stars while we remain at war throughout the game. Gyathaar's initial response was based on his belief that you would not find a way to make peace with Gandhi. However, as usual, the SGOTM community has come up with options that may thwart our intentions.

We shall operate to the following amendments to the game rules:

"You are allowed no peace treaties with India" will change to "You are allowed no peace treaties with India, and you must immediately declare war on Gandhi or his master if you ever find that you are at peace with him, either directly or via a vassal relationship."

The winning condition will be amended from "Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns" to "Awards will go to the teams that achieve the fastest spaceship defeat to a launch by Gandhi."

Please confirm that the above changes resolve the debate, or suggest any remaining issues.

 

[LowtherCastle]

If we're going to allow peace with Gandhi by vassalage, then my question is, do we drop back into war with Gandhi if he unvassalizes?

 

[Lexad]

We ain't gonna to. Thanx for clearing up, Alan.

 

[da_Vinci]

We shall operate to the following amendments to the game rules:

"You are allowed no peace treaties with India" will change to "You are allowed no peace treaties with India, and you must immediately declare war on Gandhi or his master if you ever find that you are at peace with him, either directly or via a vassal relationship."

The winning condition will be amended from "Awards will be given to teams who achieve Space defeats to India in the least turns" to "Awards will go to the teams that achieve the fastest spaceship defeat to a launch by Gandhi."

Please confirm that the above changes resolve the debate, or suggest any remaining issues.

I am all for it. The more winning is about being a leader and the less it is about being a programmer, the happier I am. I suggest that the following post

Just thought I would mention it:
If any team somehow manage to find a way to break the permanent warstate with Ghandi with some obscure method, then they are free to do so.
(Like the teams that managed to switch the permanent peace to permanent war in SGOTM1).

Personally I dont know of any way to do this.. but then I didnt know about the method that was used in SGOTM1 either

be edited with the above revision, or a reference to it, indicating that it has been overridden.

Can I assume that our ability to capitulate to Gandhi was always disabled? I guess if we are never able to have a discussion with him, that would be true.

The change in winning condition is to clarify that a launch by Gandhi's vassal is not a win for us?

All of our inner pedants are out late partying on this one!

dV

 

[AlanH]

I am all for it. The more winning is about being a leader and the less it is about being a programmer, the happier I am. I suggest that the following post

be edited with the above revision, or a reference to it, indicating that it has been overridden.

Done.

Can I assume that our ability to capitulate to Gandhi was always disabled? I guess if we are never able to have a discussion with him, that would be true.

Correct.

The change in winning condition is to clarify that a launch by Gandhi's vassal is not a win for us?

Correct.

All of our inner pedants are out late partying on this one!

I'm not going to be allowed to forget that comment, am I!

 

[LowtherCastle]

New Question: If we find ourselves in the situation where Gandhi is suddenly at peace with us, will we be able to DOW him immediately, or will we have to wait 10 turns?

 

[Gyathaar]

New Question: If we find ourselves in the situation where Gandhi is suddenly at peace with us, will we be able to DOW him immediately, or will we have to wait 10 turns?

In worst case.. just contact me and I will put you back in war immediately

 

[BLubmuz]

I think it will be very difficult to let Gandhi win, without the option to make peace, give him some techs, then declare after 10 turns.

Anyway i got a question: how WW is affected by a permanent war status?