Always War Deity on Standard Pangaea

[TheOverseer714]

Communism is as Mump said, not worth the research or anarchy or the infrastructure builds in this game. If it were going to run several hundred more turns, that might be a different story(pun intended) The unit support in communism is spectacular but the economy isn't, and neither is research. That is a government of necessity for me in the few instances I use it. You can still do specialist farms, but it is less effective for some reason. Overall, Monarchy is still best for AW.

 

[Mulok]

If you haven't really tried using communism before maybe you should make a separate save and just see how different it turns out. Whenever I go for a military victory I always get communism ASAP and last game I played made sure I got it before rails even. I was using 0% research and cash rushed courthouses, which you cant do since you have to self research, but after the transfer from Monarchy I was literally earning 1000gpt and 1000spt more and even with just libraries and no universities I could research techs in 5-6 turns at a profit. But also like you said the game is usually decided one way or another in these types of games this late.

 

[Mulok]

I also I would like to point out that "Desperate Spearman" made me lol in your SG.

 

[Mumpulus]

Turn 214 - 990AD - continued
Kassel is founded in the south.

Our slightly wounded cavalry army has more than enough power to kill 2 conscript riflemen, a regular spearman and a veteran longbowman and razes another Arabic town:

The first three railroad segments are built. Many more will follow in the coming turns to establish a military rail net.

Killed 13 units this turn, 1 with an elite, no losses.

Leipzig is switched to a prebuild for the Theory of Evolution. No-one has medicine or electricity at this point, so I should be able to get that. I fire almost all scientists and go for maximum growth again. That takes research time on Medicine up from 7 turns to 9, but I'll be able to rehire more scientists soon, when our cities grow.

At this juncture, you must learn the truth about the real power behind the military and economic might of the Germans. It turns out it isn't Chancellor Bismarck who really holds the reins of power within the glorious German Kingdom. Instead, a powerful figure that looms in the shadows is directing every move and influencing every decision made by Bismarck. This secret ruler is called Mumpulus, and he has been steadily guiding the German people towards victory. Now that he is certain that victory can no longer escape the German civilization, he grows curious of exactly how fast or how easily total victory can be achieved.

From now on, the most important aspect determining the speed of conquest will be our nation's production capacity, and to a slightly lesser degree its capacity for fast research. Mumpulus is so powerful that he already has knowledge of technologies that are still to be uncovered by his subjects, and he knows the benefits associated with them. His intention is to research Replaceable Parts for sure, and then to continue towards Motorized Transportation to unlock a new military unit that will make the remainder of our enemies crumble. In order to drastically augment our production capacity, a detour will be made to Atomic Theory and Electronics, so that we may build the Hoover Dam. That detour will be facilitated by the construction of another great wonder: the Theory of Evolution.

But Mumpulus' confidence as to whether this is the best course of action is swaying. One of his many secret advisors has suggested that the German people should change their governemental structure, and adopt communism. It holds the promise of a very high unit support, but Mumpulus doesn't care much for that because many new towns are about to be established anyway to alleviate the negligible unit support problem we have now. There are other promises however that do interest him: a staggering production and research capacity.

Mumpulus is far from convinced that communism is the way to go. If none of his advisors had brought it up, he wouldn't even have considered it. But now his curiosity has taken the better of him, and he wants to find out. Now, there is no other way to really know but to try both possible paths and then compare the outcome. Mere mortals would have no way of doing this, but it turns out Mumpulus has more special powers.

It is at this point that another significant universe will come into existence within the Civilization multiverse. This alternate reality will begin in this year of our Lord 990. The difference between the known universe and the parallel universe will lie in this choice only: to go for the monarchy/ToE/RP/MT combo or to go for the communism/espionage/RP/MT combo. Mumpulus will use his power to shift back and forth between dimensions to make sure that every other decision be as similar as possible between the two realities. Keeping the dissimilarities at a minimum is a way to ensure that as little information as possible about the future in either timeline would seep through and influence decisions in the other timeline. But it is inevitable that both timelines will eventually diverge in more ways than just a governement choice. Mumpulus is confident however that he has sufficiently proved, to any onlookers there may be, that this victory was at hand regardless of the small amount of additional information the German people might be getting now, through the conscious creation of a new universe.

So then, research is not set to medicine, but towards communism instead. The number of turns required to research this other technology is exactly the same: nine. The ToE prebuild is switched to a cavalry due to finish on the IT. University builds are switched to military. Bonn and Dortmund are building settlers at more than 1spt, and are switched to courthouses. More settler builds will be switched to courthouses, but I'll wait with that until I have some money to short-rush them. Any excess money that isn't required to get to communism in the shortest amount of time will be spent on rushing those courthouses. But at this time there is no excess money, our research rate isn't even sustainable without additional funds. Of course, those additional funds will arrive soon, as we take enemy towns. Since railing is the most important worker action right now, there won't be any changes in tile improvements in preparation of our new governement. We will only make changes to that after the governement switch.

I also take a look at building the Secret Police HQ, but that requires researching Industrialization and Espionage. I was told by my advisor to go straight for communism, so that's what I'll do. I'll take care of this new small wonder once I've taken that first bridge.

I will put common events and meta-information in the usual black font, events unique to the monarchy universe in blue, and events unique to the communism universe in red.

IT
Hittite shore bombardment is getting worse. I'm building some frigates to ping them in case they're too far from shore to bombard them with artillery. The Hittites also land 2 cavalry at Kiel.

Turn 215 - 1000AD
Our cavalry army has some trouble killing a single rifleman, but this Egyptian town still goes down:

I move a knight army onto a mountain and get pinged by an Arab cavalry.

Found Lübeck on the west coast.

I start disbanding regular spearmen and pikemen.

 

[Mumpulus]

If you haven't really tried using communism before maybe you should make a separate save and just see how different it turns out.

So I'm going to try and do this. This implies that play will progress a bit slower. I plan to divide every turn in several different stages (military moves, worker moves, micromanagement, etc.), and play each stage back to back in the two versions. I'll have to come up with an easy and quick way to track what I do, to optimize my playing speed and still keep the two versions as closely together as possible.

As you can see, there's already a different combat outcome between the two universes. That may be due to slightly different play, since I did the monarchy turn for 1000AD two days ago, and the communism turn for 1000AD just now. That kind of discrepancy should diminish when I play the two versions back to back and interleaved.

On the other hand, different combat outcomes are inevitable. That change has already occurred and it cannot be reversed. However, I will do everything I can not to let the two story lines diverge too much much due to that. I'd rather slow down progress deliberately in one universe if by some fortuitous event there's a setback in the other, than to have both diverge further because of such things. The same goes for new armies: I probably won't use them until I get one in the other version as well. On the other hand, if by changed production in one version my progress can speed up, I won't hold back as much for that.

When I started thinking about doing this today, I wasn't very taken by the idea at first. It seemed quite a daunting task to play everything twice. But now that I've played one double turn, I'm getting more excited about it. I estimate that within 20 turns, it will be clear what the impact of the different governments is. I'll decide then if the two versions will live beyond that.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I've used communism once, in a 100K game.

To get the most out of it, you need Espionage, as well, so you can build SPHQ, and to get the absolute most out of it, you want metros.

I certainly wouldn't use it in a game where I'm not religious.

 

[Mulok]

I spat out my water when I read what you are doing and this should prove an excellent experiment and easily put on display the pros and cons of both approaches. I do not know how large your empire is but I think it is only slightly smaller than mine was when I switched. I had conquered 3.5 other civs at the time but did not bother with the meticulous efficiency that you display in MM and city placement.

As a side note I was going for a conquest victory and my vast calvary army was about to go obsolete so I skipped Industrilization/Espionage because I wanted to end the game asap and knew that I wouldn't need the increased production for tanks. In the future you should yield many many leaders with your panzers to quickly rush SPHQ and I think during your GA you will see by far the biggest benefit of being in communism.

What I am looking forward to is the possibility of your GA and being mobilized for 1 turn tanks, but that might be a bit much since you can't unmobilize.

 

[Mumpulus]

For empire size, I think I'll end up with 80 to 85 settlements if I fill out all the land I can see now. I think I'm seeing a narrow choke again further up north, so it may well be that I stop my expansion right there, and no longer replace razed cities.

I'll switch to communism as soon as I get it, but after that will go for espionage and the SPHQ as well. You're absolutely right that I'll be able to use a leader to rush it for sure.

Concerning metros, I don't think that's feasible in an AW game, with its tight city placement. That's probably another reason why communism isn't used much in AW games. Sure I could get a lot of small metros (size 13-15), but I think AutomatedTeller means large metros (size 21) to maximize the raw amount of shields and commerce. That's not doable with the limited number of available tiles per city, so I'm not going to bother with making the detour to sanitation.

I don't expect this game to last to panzers, or at least not long beyond that. But I do want to see the additional effect of a GA, so if that estimate turns out to be correct, I'll just go back after I finish the actual game and keep one enemy city in play to test that. Again, this is something that doesn't apply to a "normal" AW game though, because there in general the GA has long passed by the time you get to communism.

Mobilization then is another aspect of the game I've never explored. I'll see about that when I get to that point. I'm a builder at heart () so I might not like it very much I think.

 

[Mumpulus]

[Color scheme reminder: common and meta in black, monarchy in blue, communism in red. See parallel universe explanation.]

IT
The Hittites attack the Arabs! Just some bombardment on us, no landings.

Turn 216 - 1010AD
We establish a gems colony.

Kill four units with two armies, and raze another Arab town:

In this picture you can also see we've found another narrow choke point.

IT
The Arabs land two settler pairs near the southwestern horses. One of their cavalry dies on our cavalry on a mountain. Some bombardment and one cavalry landing from the Hittites. A larger group of Egyptian cavalry is approaching. We build our first frigate.

Turn 217 - 1020AD
Four elite cavalry kill the landed units and an Arab musket that ventured too close in the north. The last attack gets me this:

That was the 13th elite victory since the last leader.

I explore a bit with our new frigate and set a trap for a Hittite frigate that has been bombarding Stuttgart.

Jena is founded between Leverkusen and Pforzheim. Halle is founded between Lübeck and Paris.

 

[CommandoBob]

I'm not senile, but I do forget things.

Mumpulus, at the top of your turn logs, could you remind us each time what your colorized text means? Nothing fancy or wordy; just a note to say that blue is communism, red is common and black is monarchy. Or is it blue is common, red is monarchy and green is communism?

 

[Mumpulus]

[Color scheme reminder: common and meta in black, monarchy in blue, communism in red. See parallel universe explanation.]

IT
One landing at Kiel by the Aztecs, some bombardment by the Egyptians and the Hittites, and lots of Egyptian cavalry approaching in the north.

Turn 218 - 1030AD
Our elite privateer sinks a Hittite frigate, but doesn't enslave.

Worms is founded near the incense, Speyer near the French saltpeter.

Way up north, our cavalry army kills 2 riflemen and a longbowman, and razes:

Killed 7 units this turn, 1 with an elite, no losses.

IT
Some bombardment only.

I hadn't noticed before, but there's this small wonder we can build in Oberhausen:

I'll certainly build that at some point.

Turn 219 - 1040AD
It takes 4/3 armies, but we still kill all riflemen and longbowmen in Najran, and raze it:

Killed 9 units this turn, 3/4 with elites, no losses.

IT
No landings, all shore bombardment fails. The Egyptian cavalry moves into range.

Turn 220 - 1050AD
Our elite/veteran privateer sinks an Aztecs caravel, but no enslavement again.

We kill 6/4 Egyptian cavalry, and one of the attacks gives us this:

That was the 7th/20th elite victory since the last leader. One new army enters the playing field.

Found Pirmasens and Bamberg.

Killed 7/5 units this turn, all with elites, no losses.

Three turns to go on medicine. Two turns to go on communism.

 

[Own]

If you're trying to see which is better, I'm going to put my money on monarchy. Cities that were previously too corrupted to be productive will still have the problem of being undeveloped, and their eventual development and productive capacity will have little significance to a game in the mop-pushing stage already. Also, losing the ability to cash rush settlers will be costly in communism, and a 8 turns of anarchy or so would be painful.

Of course, you're going to win either way; I simply predict an earlier win date with the monarchy universe.

 

[Mumpulus]

I also think that monarchy will be better, because of the flexibility of cash-rushing. Then again, cash rushing settlers and other stuff will not apply for two reasons: I'm not planning to settle much beyond the Najran choke, and I'll have no money to spare because I'll continue research towards RP, and then MT after that.

My plan right now is to put down 4 towns in the Najran area, put a knight army in each of them, and keep some empty towns just behind them. The enemy will pass in between the towns suffering ZoC hits, then my artillery and hordes of cavalry will do the rest.

That should allow me to free up all cavalry armies and start razing non-stop. Right now, too many armies are tied up covering roading crews and directing the enemy cavalry to the spot where I want them to go.

Development of towns that are corrupt in monarchy should go very fast. The military rail net should be complete in two turns, and many new towns have already been taken care of in terms of improvements. The only thing left to do is to rail the core. That will go a bit slower during anarchy, but still, by the time I get out of anarchy, most towns will have reached size 12 and our worker crews should be able to make adjustments to tile improvements very quickly then. I'll provide you all with a worker count next time I play some turns, to give you an idea of how fast all that should play out.

And finally, I'm not sure if we'll get to see which universe has the fastest finish, because play is very, very slow now, and I don't think I'll continue both universes for long after the switch. It's just too tedious, doing all that micromanagement twice per turn. I just want to have a look at the effect on production, and that's it.

 

[Northen Wolf]

I Personally like communism, but I am not advanced player, communism only dominates in end game period and it slows down ancient/medieval ages by 80 shields and few gpt. Monarch player can win more land in medieval and ancient age.

Only way(IMO) to go from perfect monarchy to communism is skip few turns and build courthouse in many cities as possible(cash rush). few courthouse do wonders with empire, but turns lost to change might be hard to redo.

Oh and here is BasketCase's story/turnlog from 'My First Diety Game' about how he switched onto communism, You might find this interesting for your thoughts, he did.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=116937&page=5

Oh, here are his final thoughts:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=116937&page=9

 

[vmxa]

Why on earth would you build Iron Works at some point in that town? It is very very hard to justify communism for a non religious nation. The range of empires that can use it is so narrow.

If it is not large enough, if fails, if it is too large it fails. So unless one is not going to continue to grow, you cannot afford to research optional techs and take long anarchy.

 

[Mumpulus]

Why on earth would you build Iron Works at some point in that town? It is very very hard to justify communism for a non religious nation. The range of empires that can use it is so narrow.

There are two questions/statements in the above. The first is about the Iron Works. While Oberhausen is a 1spt town right now, in monarchy, I expect is to be reasonably productive under communism. If I get a leader and I don't really need another army, I might as well rush it, just to see the result. It's not as if I'll need that extra production at this point in the game. This would just be in the same vein as switching to communism in the first place.

Concerning the switch to communism in itself, I fully agree: I would never have considered switching, if my curiosity hadn't been aroused by this lurker comment:

If you haven't really tried using communism before maybe you should make a separate save and just see how different it turns out.

I decided to go ahead with this for two reasons:

1. I've never ever used communism myself, and I would like to see how it works. From what I've read about it in SGs, I'm thinking that my empire size will be about right for it. That's just a hunch though, I haven't looked at any numbers (OCN etc.) yet.
2. I'm playing a monarchy version and a communism version, to actually compare both when everything else in the game will be in the same state (almost) exactly. I'm not sure if a detailed comparison like this has ever been done on these forums before? Regardless, I hope some people might find it useful to get some more insight into this.

If it is not large enough, if fails, if it is too large it fails. So unless one is not going to continue to grow, you cannot afford to research optional techs and take long anarchy.

Those are clear drawbacks, and an important part of why I wouldn't have done it myself, but Mulok stated that these drawbacks are offset very rapidly by the gains from communism. I'm just going to see if that true.

 

[vmxa]

I can't image it is right in very many scenarios. How do you gain back 8 turns of no production? Not to mention the pain of having to go around fix all the unhappiness. Often resulting in loss of pop.

The reason I raised my eyebrow on the Iron Works is you said something like you would surely do it. So it will cost a bunch and gain little, except pollution.

True you could do it with a leader, but they are better for armies or even a market in a farm town or an aqua. The big thing is it pollutes a lot an is in a place that will be corrupt. Again you could reduce it with Communism, but that is a very high price to pay for so little net return.

Once you get to cav armies the game will go so fast a gov switch would make no sense. I usually see player talk up communism in huge maps on medium or low levels, but those games are not much of a test.

They tend to last way way too long and should have been won already. They seem to have large AI civs to content with as they build every structure know to man.

 

[Mumpulus]

[Color scheme reminder: common and meta in black, monarchy in blue, communism in red. See parallel universe explanation.]

I finally got a chance to play a little again, so here goes. I played two turns in the monarchy universe only. I may edit the communism turns into this post later, or post it separately, depending on what I feel like continuing next time I have some time to play.

Turn 221 - 1060AD
It's been more than a month since I last played this game. How did this work again? Ah, yes:

Roading crews were put in place last turn, which allows me to clean up all approaching units, and move armies forward:

Killed 13 units this turn, 6 with elites, no losses. The very first attack yielded a leader; that was the 5th elite victory since the last leader I got.

After heavy micromanagement, I get Medicine down to 1 turn.

IT
No attacks on us outside some shore bombardment; the AIs are still fighting among each other.

Turn 222 - 1070AD
Found Flaschenhals, Ostflaschenhals and Südflaschenhals in the choke area.

Two cavalry armies remove some cultural pressure there:

Two more cavalry armies kill 3 riflemen and a cavalry in Tamuin:

All we can see now are Arab borders.

While cleaning up loose units in the Tamuin area, I lose an elite crusader.

Killed 11 units this turn, 3 with elites, 1 loss.

Micromanage for growth and production again, and Electricity is due in 11 turns at 100% science, and -82gpt.

Below is an overview of the northern wastelands, with the new front in the choke area. I'll not settle past this choke, except maybe to control some resource. Remaining settling spots are marked. The rail net towards the core is almost complete. I'll start improving the core next turn, while extending the rail net on the front towards enemy towns I can attack. With all the razing I'm about to start, I should get plenty of slaves too.

Spoiler :

 

[Mumpulus]

[Color scheme reminder: common and meta in black, monarchy in blue, communism in red. See parallel universe explanation. What follows is in monarchy only.]

IT
The Egyptians found a new town within reach. Other than that, only some shore bombardment at Flaschenhals.

Turn 223 - 1080AD
The new Egyptian town burns, but not before we collect more research funds.

I lose a veteran cavalry on a 3hp pikeman, but still take two more Arabic cities:

Killed 16 units this turn, 8 with elites, lost 1.

IT
I had mismoved a trebuchet last turn. The riflemen covering it go 1-1 against Egyptian cavalry, with a promotion to elite. The Russians land a settler pair in the south.

Turn 224 - 1090AD
Nordflaschenhals is founded to complete our blockade. Even if by some freak occurrence two of the towns there fall, we'll now have a backup line. Baden Baden is founded in the south.

The Arab capital falls to our armies:

At Basra, I was able to put some artillery into place last turn, and so I can attack with cavalry.

Our armies move forward and spot a yellowlined rifleman in Baghdad. There's no problem to eliminate the defenses:

I don't have many units to spare, and lose a veteran cavalry on a 2hp rifleman to boot. I do gain another leader near the ivory found where Mecca used to be, with the 20th elite victory since the last leader:

With plenty of armies available, the next Arabic city falls quickly:

I scout with an army, and I can just reach Aden. It takes some creative railroading, and I have to redline an army, but I succeed in taking another Arabic city:

... which turns out to be their last:

I decide to keep Aden for its wonder.

I killed 31 units this turn, 7 with elites, 1 loss.

IT
I lose a trebuchet stack and an elite cavalry to the Hittites. It could have been worse though, with how our troops were overextended following that last turn.

Turn 225 - 1100AD
I get those trebuchets back.

I want to remove cultural pressure on Aden, so I use some wounded armies and knight armies to take down Malinalco. Other than that, this will be a healing turn.

Found Landau near Paris.

IT
I lose 2 worker stacks to a Hittite cavalry.

Turn 226 - 1110AD
I can recuperate one worker stack, the other one must have been killed.

We also get some payback from the Hittites:

Our cavalry armies move forward again, and find the Egyptian core:

I use some of that money to rush some settlers.

Found Coburg in the south.

Killed 16 units this turn, 6 with elites, no losses.

IT
A cavalry that captured some workers in the jungle defeats 2 Egyptian cavalry and promotes.

Turn 227 - 1120AD
Found Schweinfurt, Bayreuth, Fürth, Ansbach, Schwabach, Aschaffenburg, and Dormagen, and move 5 more settlers into position in the south. Establish a dyes colony and an ivory colony in the north. The German people control at least one source of each luxury resource now.

The next Egyptian town falls:

I lose a cavalry army on a regular rifleman in Kufah, but the city still falls:

Killed 17 units this turn, 5 with elites, 5 units lost (army filled with 4 cavalry).

IT
A cavalry in the jungle defends against a Hittite MDI.

I get three palace expansions

Turn 228 - 1130AD
Found Edelstein, Düren, Recklinghausen, Gelsenkirchen, Krefeld, and Solingen. The south is completely settled now:

Spoiler :

The steamroller is picking up speed:

(That was the 18th elite victory since the last leader.)

Killed 21 units this turn, 7 with elites, no losses.

 

[Xethorsiph]

Not trying to jynx you, but once you get a full railroad going from your core to the battle front, this game is over.