SGOTM 13 - Plastic Ducks

AlanH

AlanH

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BtS SGOTM 13 - Napoleon's Revenge



Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 13 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

In a break with tradition, I am not going to copy the Game Details into this post. You can find them in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck, and remember rule #1 - ENJOY THE GAME!
 
Welcome to Plastic Ducks' SGOTM13 thread!​
​



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Turn sets

Turn set 1 - played by Duckweed
Turn set 2 - played by srad
Turn set 3 - played by srad
Turn set 4 - played by srad
Turn set 5 and this - played by srad
Turn set 6 - played by kossin
Turn set 7 and this - played by BornInCantaloup
Turn set 8 and this - played by madviking
Turn set 9 and this - played by BornInCantaloup
Turn set 10 - Enter pressed by Duckweed :p
Turn set 11 and this - Played by BornInCantaloup
Turn set 12 - Played by BornInCantaloup
Turn set 13 - Played by BornInCantaloup
Turn set 14 - Played by BornInCantaloup
Turn set 15 - Played by BornInCantaloup
Turn set 16 - Whipped by kossin
Turn set 17 - Whipped by kossin
Turn set 18 and this - Whipped by kossin
Turn set 19 - Whipped by kossin
Turn set 20 and this - Whipped by kossin
Turn set 21 and this - Whipped by kossin
Turn set 22 - Whipped by kossin
Turn set 23 - Whipped by kossin

Moderately to interesting posts

The fog gazing trick.
Fog gazing.
Conclusion from fog gazing
Early scouting 1
Early Scouting 2
Wild Scouting proposition by finding hills
Early Scouting 4
Even better. - thanks Compromise!
Close to optimal...
More on camera flying.
More scouting and this.
Barb galleys
On City Maintenance.
Ideas
Partial slider
Wonder dates based on religion
No GLH you say?
Oracle ideas
Whipping and such.
What is needed in a city.
Oracle: Currency vs Construction
Some humor... dark humor!
On Naval Warfare

Post game analyses
Snaaty's thoughts and kossin's replies
Whipping is fun
A look back on Oracle->Currency vs Oracle->Construction
 
Since it seems we were the only team to go for an all-out Conquest, I will work on a more complete summary in this and the next 3 posts... might take some time to complete.
 
Summary​

Links to the actual reports can be found in post #2 above. Here I will summarize our train of thought behind each set as well as write down the important things that transpired during the sets. I'll try to include screenshots when relevant but a bunch of them are already in the turn set reports so maybe not.

Turn set 1
Spoiler :

Official save

4000BC Warrior+settler sent to PH
3975BC Paris founded on PH
3750BC Fishing discovered
3475BC Mining discovered
2925BC Bronze Working discovered
2875BC Revolt to Slavery
2675BC 3rd workboat done, start settler

First off, we discussed where to settle. It was clear that SIP would get its second city faster but from our tests, it was clear that the 3rd, 4th, ... cities would come later! So that was strike one for SIP. Starting without Fishing meant worker first was a no brainer, SIP would take 4 more turns to train a worker - strike two. PH are actually not so great tiles to work: 2 food for 4 hammers, it's as bad as a plains forest. Strike three.

The loss of 30H from the forest would be offset by the 2H from the city tile in time.

Tech path: Fishing>Mining>BW>Sailing

Fishing first to start on the wb after the worker.
Mining so the worker can improve the GH.
BW to chop, whip and because once the 2nd workboat was completed, it took 2 turns to improve the 2nd clam and Paris would be working an unimproved tile, therefore revolting to Slavery while the wb was travelling avoided the loss of 2F.
Sailing for galleys and LH obviously.

The 3rd workboat was finished at the end of the set, ready to go scout where we though we might need to.


Turn set 2-5
Spoiler :

Official save

2525BC Sailing discovered

These 4 sets are actually just 1 that was split up to better evaluate scouting. The planning consisted of the end of the previous set that we had agreed upon some days prior.

Techs: Sailing>Mysticism

There were plenty of examples of proposed scouting routes in post #2 so I won't repeat them. Basically, the obvious settling location was to the east fish so scouting would go west instead. From there, we looked for hills and lucked out, finding the Montecristo island :)


Turn set 6
Spoiler :

Official save

2375BC Orleans founded
2325BC Mysticism discovered
2125BC Masonry discovered

We met 4 AIs in this set [and we deduced from EP that Victoria had met another unknown], ending the debate about the necessity of Astronomy. The discovery of the GLH's owner further nourished our desire for an early aggression, which we would continue later.

Techs: Mysticism>Masonry

Mysticism en route for Oracle
Masonry for the Marble

City 3 wouldn't go on the marble, we didn't want to wait for border pops to start using the city... also marble is a decent tile. Long term, settled on the marble to use the 2 clams is obviously better but we preferred early food and hammers... also our worker wasn't doing anything.


Turn set 7
Spoiler :

Official save

2050BC Lyons founded
2025BC Pottery discovered
1875BC Meditation discovered
1775BC Priesthood discovered

Starting with the border pop to further reveal neighboring tiles, this was the setup until we had all necessary techs for The Oracle. Our existing cities began adding infrastructure to stop wasting food when whipping.

According to our tests, most new cities would obtain maximal growth potential by starting with a lighthouse, whipping into a granary... the key being that the LH whip did not delay the granary as it was worth double hammers... food was gained by having +1 from water tiles instead. During this set, we also sent out 2 exploring workboats looking to circle the globe for the extra movement.

Techs: Pottery>Meditation>Priesthood

Pottery for obvious reasons and also as it opened up Metal Casting from The Oracle
Meditation on way to The Oracle and because we didn't need to lock the Philosophy build (cheaper than Polytheism). Finally, Priesthood would itself unlock The Oracle.

Catherine managed to grab StoneHenge, making it even more clear that she'd be our target! What a lucrative catch Moscow could be.
 
Checking in :)


Some random notes I took a week ago:

1. Circumnavigation bonus for +1 shipment movement.
2. Every city starts with +6 happiness (+7 with a monument)
3. Lighthouses and courthouses are cheap (later factories but I doubt that we need them)
4. 8xp means a level 4 unit -> Heroic Epic
5. Probably we will use the whip heavily due to the nature of island/seafood starts - especially the capital looks like this. So early granaries could make sense.

Early wonders that could make sense:
1. Stonehenge -> +1 Happiness from monuments
2. The Colossus
3. If we have marble -> GL, Part., ToA?


List of possible opponents (Europeans):
1. Dutch
2. England
3. Germany
4. Greece
5. Holy Roman Empire
6. Portugal
7. Russia
8. Spain
9. Vikings


Based on a Archipelago map a test game:
View attachment nappy test BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
srad said:
Checking in :)


Some random notes I took a week ago:

1. Circumnavigation bonus for +1 shipment movement.
2. Every city starts with +6 happiness (+7 with a monument)
3. Lighthouses and courthouses are cheap (later factories but I doubt that we need them)
4. 8xp means a level 4 unit -> Heroic Epic
5. Probably we will use the whip heavily due to the nature of island/seafood starts - especially the capital looks like this. So early granaries could make sense.

Early wonders that could make sense:
A. Stonehenge -> +1 Happiness from monuments
B. The Colossus
C. If we have marble -> GL, Part., ToA?
Click to expand...

Excellent work!

1. Yes we will obviously want some early scouts to get going. This will mean OB for intercontinental traderoutes so Writing and Currency are key economic techs here.
2. Actually it's +5/+6 (+6/7 is for the capital only)
3. If we get to Factories, we lose :D However, cheap CH means we might be able to unlock the FB early on which will BE needed due to nature of the map (we have islands, the AI have continents)
4. Yup yup. However it also means we might be plagued by barb galleys so better think of those early on.
5. Finding when to slot in Pottery will be the key factor here. While granaries will be excellent, the situation strongly favors a big REX.

A. It'd be nice but we don't have the forests/production and it'd delay the REX.
B. Definitely.
C. Yes, yes, doubtful we'll get Marble by then.

The Oracle is a must. Whether we use it for Metal Casting (The Colossus, trading bait) or an economic tech (CoL, Currency, an early Alphabet?).
Or we can try pushing our luck and bulb Math+try to Oracle Civil Service :mischief:

At first I thought there was a river near the top of our island but on second look it seems what we see is what we get.

Moving the warrior first is certain. However, does settling on the PH make it a faster start than having a quick second city? I kinda doubt it.
At the same time though, our current capital stinks in terms of production with only 2 hills.... we'll be whipping here a long time.
 
kossin said:
Excellent work!

1. Yes we will obviously want some early scouts to get going. This will mean OB for intercontinental traderoutes so Writing and Currency are key economic techs here.
2. Actually it's +5/+6 (+6/7 is for the capital only)
3. If we get to Factories, we lose :D However, cheap CH means we might be able to unlock the FB early on which will BE needed due to nature of the map (we have islands, the AI have continents)
4. Yup yup. However it also means we might be plagued by barb galleys so better think of those early on.
5. Finding when to slot in Pottery will be the key factor here. While granaries will be excellent, the situation strongly favors a big REX.

A. It'd be nice but we don't have the forests/production and it'd delay the REX.
B. Definitely.
C. Yes, yes, doubtful we'll get Marble by then.
Click to expand...

1. Agree
2. Correct, I forgot the +1 from the palace
3. BE?
4. This would also favor MC for Triremes (from Oracle?)

A. Agree
B. Agree
C. Depends how generous the map maker was :)



kossin said:
The Oracle is a must. Whether we use it for Metal Casting (The Colossus, trading bait) or an economic tech (CoL, Currency, an early Alphabet?).
Or we can try pushing our luck and bulb Math+try to Oracle Civil Service :mischief:
Click to expand...

I doubt CS is possible. A joke about the Math bulb? :)


kossin said:
Moving the warrior first is certain. However, does settling on the PH make it a faster start than having a quick second city? I kinda doubt it.
At the same time though, our current capital stinks in terms of production with only 2 hills.... we'll be whipping here a long time.
Click to expand...

Hm. Good question ... guess this needs testing.
 
srad said:
3. BE?
4. This would also favor MC for Triremes (from Oracle?)

A. Agree
B. Agree
C. Depends how generous the map maker was :)

I doubt CS is possible. A joke about the Math bulb? :)

Hm. Good question ... guess this needs testing.
Click to expand...

3. BE = be... since we'll have a lot of cities, we'll want to get the Forbidden Palace out quickly (90*6+300 hammers total I think on Epic)
4. Yes perhaps. Depending on the amount of cities available to us MC might be the choice tech (if few cities).

CS: yea... day-dreaming ;)

Settling the PH gets out the worker faster and we get a few more hills for a better capital. It means rushing to Sailing though...

The deciding factor to me is how early we can get a Galley+Settler out. I'm inclined to say that getting the 2nd early city will more than make up for the 4 turns earlier worker and 40~60 extra hammers.

Maybe we can check total hammers+food+commerce via Excel, save us hours of testing the opening.
 
We will definitely need to get our first dinghy [madviking translation: work boat] to see how isolated we are. If we are just on a different island (coast connection exists) we'll probably do some sorta sword/axe/mebbe xbow strike on whomever is nearest to us.

But if we're supa-isolated, we'd probably want to get Optics asap, and probably focusing on money/research and striking the First Coalition AI with rifles.

Colossus will be good if our island is rather indented, and if we have Cu. But I think the shields will be better invested in the Lighthouse. I generally avoid working non-food sea tiles like the plague if I'm non-financial since a grassland cottage will exceed the coast tile in 20 turns. Tho, the Lighthouse's effects are mitigated somewhat if we're super-isolated, so Colossus looks less bad in that case.
 
GLH is pre-built, given to AI :(

Thing with Colossus vs cottage is the cottage needs 6 worker turns + 90H... lighthouse is 45H for Organized. Therefore it's 45 turns for a cottage to give the same yield as a lighthouse (15*-2 + 30*-1 = -60C behind). Early commerce is more important than later one especially on this type of map (early domination).
 
Check in.

Lists of issues of grand strategy.

Victory -- Domination

Weapons -- Sieges + any cold weapons up to macemans + settlers

Critical techs -- Construction, Currency, MC plus probably CS. If Astronomy is required to reach AIs (which is likely the case), then Lit->Music is important to produce 2 or 3 GSs to bulb to Astro. We'd better skip Construction and CS and aim to trade for them.

Wonders -- Oracle is the only critical wonder for sure. If Astro is needed, then TGL if Marble is available. I'm doubtful of the usefulness of TC, which is either unnecessary to reach cheap techs or will be obsoleted by Astro very soon.

Capital site -- My intuition tells that SIP is better in long term, but on PH will probably gives an earlier Oracle date. It would be better to run a couple tests for comparison.:)

I'm in favor of playing the opening as that's my stronger part,:p but no problem to yield to others.:)
 
^^
Yes, this seems like a good summary of the game.

Food economy seems obvious supported by traderoutes. I only mentioned TC as we might need some help to keep our war economy afloat.

I'll try to do an analysis of in place vs on PH.
 
PH, size 2 settler
---
Second city comes at t63 and a galley is out. (12t next settler... no time for scouting much)

SIP Case 1: Settler at size 2
---
Second city comes at t50
Next city+galley ~t78+ (this approach runs in all sorts of complications due to having an early second city and lack of improvements).

SIP Case 2: Settler at size 3
---
Second city comes at t56
Next city+Galley ~t77

SIP Case 3: Settler at size 4
---
Second city comes at t61
Next city+galley ~t80

~~~

With only this, I'd rule out SIP-size 2 settler and SIP-size 4 settler.

SIP-3 pop could overtake the PH approach for the future cities... but I am uncertain.
 
My remarks in blue:

Duckweed said:
Check in.

Lists of issues of grand strategy.

Victory -- Domination
Seems obvious as vassals are disabled. Could we miss here something?


Weapons -- Sieges + any cold weapons up to macemans + settlers
I guess so but I have little to no experience going for a domination win on emperor level with no meaner hardware than maces :D

Critical techs -- Construction, Currency, MC plus probably CS. If Astronomy is required to reach AIs (which is likely the case), then Lit->Music is important to produce 2 or 3 GSs to bulb to Astro. We'd better skip Construction and CS and aim to trade for them.
Music for the GA for a Golden Age?

Wonders -- Oracle is the only critical wonder for sure. If Astro is needed, then TGL if Marble is available. I'm doubtful of the usefulness of TC, which is either unnecessary to reach cheap techs or will be obsoleted by Astro very soon.
The AI with the TGL is hopefully not wondercrazy.

Capital site -- My intuition tells that SIP is better in long term, but on PH will probably gives an earlier Oracle date. It would be better to run a couple tests for comparison.:)

I'm in favor of playing the opening as that's my stronger part,:p but no problem to yield to others.:)
I am fine with that.
Click to expand...
 
Fishing>Mining>BW>Sailing
Corn
2nd pop on 3H for wb..then on clams
3rd pop on 2F1H.
Chop forest and mine PH
I forget the rest from memory but that's the base of it.
 
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