SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

mabraham said:

Also if we take GLH city too early (i.e. before we can raze the AP), the AP might force us into multiple denials (war, give us the city back, etc.). Then maybe even if we raze it we have to accept the -penalty in those cities, since we can't vote for a resolution that passes!

Click to expand...

bcool said:

It probably doesn't make sense to build the AP ourselves. I suppose that is another option for a GE to build. Obviously we would need a religion ourselves to do it as well.

To build it we would need Theology that opens up Theocracy too...
Theocracy isn't a bad civic for us. Bulbing Theocracy with the Great Prophet should at least be discussed.

Click to expand...

I hadn't meant to suggest we might build the AP - my only interest to date is in burning it to the ground. I don't want to be in the situation of an early strike on the GLH city coming unstuck because the AP religion spreads across the ocean and we have to defy "give them the city back" AP votes.

Theocracy is somewhat useful for us at war time (so our drafted muskets come out with one promotion, others with two). We'd have to have a religion and spread it around, however (with what hammers?). We can probably get Theology from Izzy at any time, though, and the GT and HE cities are the only one that really need the state religion...

sorry I didn't mean to imply that that you had suggested we build the AP. Just that your mentioning it made me realize that we could avoid the need to burn it to the ground by building it ourselves.

If we found a religion relatively early we should get quite a bit of automatic spread of the religion.

It was just a thought.

Upon further reflection, bulbing theology might prevent other AI from researching it themselves and that would perhaps reduce the xp of the enemy units we fight because they wouldn't have theocracy?

Not sure this is worth the hammers/gold/science that a settled prophet might give us. Just an option to consider if we do get the great prophet.

The hammers from the AP religion religious buildings really do pay off very quickly if you whip the buildings out. Usually the 2 hammers from those buildings are more than the population that we whipped to build them could produce themselves.

After its WB, I think FH should build its own warrior, which can be done by about T106 when it grows to size four and needs one. Then LH (1-whipped T108), monument (marking time) and library for those scientists. Work in a warrior-MP for Stone Mountain if that seems best.

I think that CC post-LH overflow going onto a monument is a good idea. We want to be able to work 5 tiles (while tolerating two whip- points) while building our forge so that we can get to size 6 fast enough for 3-whips on settlers.

Because our Oracle border pops will generate a lot of visibility for Stone Mountain, I think we do not have to highly prioritise an MP for it. Our WB may shortly find out that SM is on a small island. We will get several turns' warning of any barb approaching, and either SM (5 turns once quarry is up) or either "mainland" city (3 turns on two mines) can put one out fairly quickly (after exporting its own warrior). In the short term, we do need to make sure the galley is not too far afield, however.

We don't have enough work to need a second worker already - there's only Gmine, stone quarry and maybe some workshops to fill in time with.

In CC, I like a slow-growth max-hammers Pyramid-planning build order similar to:
Settler, working more corn farm and max overflow of 44 from a 2-whip on T101 (e.g. from 3 clams throughout, 6 turns of corn farm then 1 Pmine, and the last guy works 5 turns of Gforest once he's happy),
overflow to monument (work 3 clams, done T103),
overflow to forge (work 2 clams+Pmine), and
work 2 clams and 2 mines thereafter, putting 1 turn on Pyramids and then reverting to the forge.

I looked at skipping the monument in favour of going straight onto the forge, but we need its happiness in order to regrow to size 6 fast enough. Hence it should stay in the plan, I think.

We will need a turn or two at 0% science after Masonry to cash up for the Writing tech stage.

Also, please note the post I made four posts back about the exploring WB heading SE next turn, if possible.

Click to expand...

I agree with the above.

Although I would like to see FH build the pyramids if possible for wealth, especially if it is just waiting to build the library with a monument build. Obviously can only do this when CC isn't building the pyramids.

Another possibility for FH is to build another exploratory workboat. It would be nice to have an exploratory workboat dedicated to finding resources/settling sites nearby.

Another possibility for FH is to build another exploratory workboat. It would be nice to have an exploratory workboat dedicated to finding resources/settling sites nearby.

Click to expand...

I really like this idea. Every game I DON'T build exploring boats, I regret it sooner or later.

Capturing or Burning the AP city would be my preferred path. The only way I think we build it is if we have a spare GE with nothing better to do, or we have a city with nothing to build that we can build it with overflow or slow build it. I don't see the second option happening realistically, but you never know. I suppose if we had a city with TONS of forests to chop, but I think I would rather chop those into Cats or Trebs!

Guess I misunderstood where we wanted to build the Forge.

Also, the first tech a GProphet will want to bulb is Meditation (and then Monotheism before Theology), so if we delay researching (or trading for) Meditation until after we have Astronomy, that could take some time. If we get an early GProphet, it may be best to settle him in the Capitol.

PPP Turn 94 to Turn 107 - Revision 1 changes in Maroon

Research
finish Masonry > Writing (Metal Casting as free tech from Oracle)

Civics Changes
None

City Builds

Clam Chowder

1. Lighthouse (1T)
2. Settler (whip on T101)
3. Monument w/overflow
4. start Forge (1 turn on Pyramids)

Fish Hills

1. Oracle whipped T94
2. Work Boat for Fish
3. Warrior for MP duties
4. Work Boat for additional exploration
5. Lighthouse (maybe not on this turn set)
6. Monument (maybe not on this turn set)
7. Library (maybe not on this turn set)

Stone Mountain

• (founded ~T104, location TBD)
• start Granary

Unit Moves

Worker 1

1. build GH Mine 2W of CC
2. start Stone Quarry

Work Boat 4

1. fog bust near Stone
2. continue to fog bust

Work Boat 5 > nets Fish for Fish Hills

Galley 1

1. ferry Worker 1 to west island
2. fog bust around Marble
3. ferry Worker 1 & Settler to Stone island
4. ferry service between CC & SM

Warrior 1 > sentry in Fish Hills

Planned Pause > T97 after Fish Hills border pop

Unplanned Pauses (if any)

• meet AI Civ
• Barb Galley incursion
• find Copper or other new resources

I think if a GProph comes out, definitely settle it in the capital. I'm actually quite a big fan of early Prophets for this reason. It will also get a nice +3 once the mids are built.

I'm a bit out of the loop with all the micro management, but I am 100% in favour of any ideas that give us more exploring workboats. A long range exploring trireme would also be nice I think, and could be a useful choice for generating whip overflow ?

Grifftavian said:

Guess I misunderstood where we wanted to build the Forge.

Click to expand...

No worries - it did get talked about at some point.

Grifftavian said:

Also, the first tech a GProphet will want to bulb is Meditation (and then Monotheism before Theology), so if we delay researching (or trading for) Meditation until after we have Astronomy, that could take some time. If we get an early GProphet, it may be best to settle him in the Capitol.

Click to expand...

Yeah, true. Settling sounds like a better plan unless something unexpected comes up. The Astronomy run I just did had had Christianity founded by an AI (i.e. Theology was researched) quite a few turns before I got Astro.

Unless Confu comes in for our late-ish CoL, we're not likely to be first to tech Philo after bulbing Astro, so that makes it somewhat unlikely we'll have a near-universal religion for seriously considering religious strategy elements. I also can't see us wanting to delay the introduction of Caste System in order to whip all of granary, lighthouse and one or two religious buildings in a bunch of cities that are probably powered by just a pair of seafood (or so). There's only the temple available until post-Astronomy Meditation anyway...

Grifftavian said:

PPP Turn 94 to Turn 107 - Revision 1 changes in Maroon

Research
finish Masonry > Writing (Metal Casting as free tech from Oracle)

Civics Changes
None

City Builds

Clam Chowder

1. Lighthouse (1T)
2. Settler (whip on T101)
3. Monument w/overflow
4. start Forge (1 turn on Pyramids)

Fish Hills

1. Oracle whipped T94
2. Work Boat for Fish
3. Warrior for MP duties
4. Work Boat for additional exploration
5. Lighthouse (maybe not on this turn set)
6. Monument (maybe not on this turn set)
7. Library (maybe not on this turn set)

Stone Mountain

• (founded ~T104, location TBD)
• start Granary

Unit Moves

Worker 1

1. build GH Mine 2W of CC
2. start Stone Quarry

Work Boat 4

1. fog bust near Stone
2. continue to fog bust

Work Boat 5 > nets Fish for Fish Hills

Galley 1

1. ferry Worker 1 to west island
2. fog bust around Marble
3. ferry Worker 1 & Settler to Stone island
4. ferry service between CC & SM

Warrior 1 > sentry in Fish Hills

Planned Pause > T97 after Fish Hills border pop

Unplanned Pauses (if any)

• meet AI Civ
• Barb Galley incursion
• find Copper or other new resources

Click to expand...

Looks good.

Do we have an updated tile MM? Basically, I think FH has priority over the mines to get its WB out, then CC has priority to get 44 hammers overflow off the settler. After that, CC is effectively in Pyramids mode already, so it wants to regrow fairly slowly while working about two clams and the mines as population allows - but since we haven't got Stone hooked up yet, the turn on the Pyramids should have as few hammers as is reasonable. FH grows using as much food and the Gmine as is consistent with getting its warrior MP out in time to grow to 4.

PPP looks good to me now!

I agree with aj that exploring still needs to be high on the list!

bcool said:

Upon further reflection, bulbing theology might prevent other AI from researching it themselves and that would perhaps reduce the xp of the enemy units we fight because they wouldn't have theocracy?

Click to expand...

Yeah, but I don't see it fitting the rest of our plan, per Griff's observations about prereqs. Plus our cannons won't care how many upgrades are on the longbows...

adrianj said:

I'm a bit out of the loop with all the micro management, but I am 100% in favour of any ideas that give us more exploring workboats. A long range exploring trireme would also be nice I think, and could be a useful choice for generating whip overflow ?

Click to expand...

Yep, good idea. We'll have to see what land we find with the first two explorers to see what to prioritise, though.

Sure good points on the impossibility of theology.

I would like to see the MM on the new plan, otherwise I'm good.

PPP looks okay to me. I'm still a little confused about the best time to whip so I'll need advice if I have to do that during my turn. I read the strategy articles here on it and do understand it a little better though.

I'm still a little confused about the best time to whip so I'll need advice if I have to do that during my turn.

Click to expand...

Here is how I think about it.

On an Epic speed game like this one(whipping is different on each speed), each pop point you whip gets you 45 before any modifiers are figured in.

So in order to whip for 1 pop, you need to be within 45 of completing your build just to make that happen.

When you whip for 2 pop, you get 90(before modifiers). You have to NEED between 46 and 90 to make this happen. Here is the important part, whether you need 46 or 90, it still costs you 2 pop points. So...if you need 46 to complete the current build, and you get 90 from the 2 pop whip, 44 get carried over to the following build. This is the maximum overflow you can get (without modifiers).

Everything changes with game speed and modifiers. The easiest way to figure out what you need is to hover the mouse over the hammer bar indicator in the city screen, it will tell you where you current are coming from INCLUDING modifiers. In our particular case, you will see that when we are building a Lighthouse, we get 100% bonus for being organized. Each 1 base is worth 2 on this build. It is the same if we want to whip this building. Each 1 pop point to whip a Lighthouse gets 100% bonus, so each pop point to whip a LH is worth 90

I would encourage you to play around with this feature in some random start games. Whip something, reload the game and play a little longer and whip it again and pay attention to what happens to you pop points and your before and after you whip. Look at the bar in the city screen before and after you whip so you can see in detail what you actually get. Do it again with a Forge in the city, do it again with a state religion running Organized Religion, do it with both! Watch what happens with your overflow on the following build, see what difference changing the following build from units to buildings to wonders to wonders with bonus resources makes.

I have updated the tile micromanagement plan for my turn set on the Gory Details spreadsheet...

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...zlENkdRa0FDcVR6MkNTZFE&hl=en&authkey=CLnzoMAE

If it looks OK, I can play up through the end of T97 (after FH border pop & WB explores around Stone) and send out a screen shot of the area around the Stone, so we can nail down a location for City #3, later this afternoon, ~5 or 6 hours from this post, or whenever I get a consensus on the turn set plan & tile micromanagement.

Grifftavian said:

I have updated the tile micromanagement plan for my turn set on the Gory Details spreadsheet...

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...zlENkdRa0FDcVR6MkNTZFE&hl=en&authkey=CLnzoMAE

Click to expand...

Thanks. I can see a few small points for improvement. T94 and T95 we should be working our corn in CC rather than our GF. By my calculations, that will maximize the overflow off the settler.

The growth plan for CC for the next 50 turns is fairly important, because we are trying do to a maximum-speed Duckweed so we can get the Pyramids and its attendant benefits as fast as we can. I think we can achieve this with a 2-whip T101 on a settler, a 2-whip T116 on a forge (timed so that stone is available next turn for the overflow), a 3-whip T125 on a settler, another 3-whip T140 on a settler, and the Pyramids finishing T147. That is over-whipping, but with poor tiles to work at size 5 or 6, the expectation of 3 arriving at the end of it, and soon switching out of Slavery, that doesn't much matter. In that time span, by my count, we have 7 turns total of a single angry citizen if we slow growth by working 2 clams throughout and mostly mines otherwise.

Because of the over-whipping we want to grow back to size 6 only just before the whip is due, so that we don't spend our time early in the cycle working food to grow fast to feed more angry people or ineffective workers later. This means that maximum-growth is not a good idea. Growth to four is useful, but after that it's not so good. So that means the tile use plans should span lengths of time that will extend past each player's set

As far as this turnset goes, I'm good with the T96-T102 CC plan, but T103 I think we should work 2 clams and Pmine. Because of the T94 corn working, we would grow to size four T104 even without working 3 clams, and the extra food isn't very useful. More hammers are useful. So:

CC works
T94 3 clams corn
T95 3 clams corn
T96-99 3 clams corn GF
T100 3 clams Pmine GF
T101 3 clams
T102 3 clams
T103 2 clams Pmine
T104-T107 2 clams Pmine Gmine

Accordingly, FH works both mines T94-T99, then corn+fish T100-T107, adding in Gmine on T103 (still gets warrior out for T106 growth) and then clams T106.

Grifftavian said:

If it looks OK, I can play up through the end of T97 (after FH border pop & WB explores around Stone) and send out a screen shot of the area around the Stone, so we can nail down a location for City #3, later this afternoon, ~5 or 6 hours from this post, or whenever I get a consensus on the turn set plan & tile micromanagement.

Click to expand...

Sounds fine. I'll be off-air for about 14 hours from this post. Per my earlier post, I don't think it much matters whether we settle on the stone or 1S of it so long as we maximise our food resource access. There may be a slight advantage to settling on the stone so that we can whip our forge earlier and start the Pyramids+stone earlier. That's slightly cheaper, too.

I've updated the Gory Details spreadsheet per mab's tile micromanagement suggestions ^.

I'm good with the updated plan. Thanks for posting the details.

Good by me!

Still okay with the plan. And thanks for the 'whip' explanation Ronnie1!

I played through Turn 97.

There are Fish 2E of the Stone, and additional land to SE!
There are Clams 2W of the Marble, and additional land to SW!
There are Pigs N of the desert tiles (2E of Fish Hills' Fish Resource)!
Looks like I need to put in a turn at 0% Science to finish up Writing.

Lets see if this works: Link to screen shots...

https://docs.google.com/?authuser=0...y00OGExLWJjYmYtZmViNGQ0ZGUyY2Yx&filter=images

Autolog...