SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

[Ronnie1]

Link didn't work...when I was trying, even though I had shared the documents in question, there seemed to be an issue when copying and pasting. I think to make it work, I actually opened the upload in a new window and copied the address out of the address bar.

Next option would be to upload the save so we can just see it, but I would prefer not to do it that way if possible.

EDIT: I knew from flying camera there was more land....you just can't tell how much. There is more land due west for sure. There is more land NE for sure. I think there is more land NW. See the screenshots I posted a while back.

 

[mabraham]

I played through Turn 97.

There are Fish 2E of the Stone, and additional land to SE!
There are Clams 2W of the Marble, and additional land to SW!
There are Pigs N of the desert tiles (2E of Fish Hills' Fish Resource)!
Looks like I need to put in a turn at 0% Science to finish up Writing.

Lets see if this works: Link to screen shots...

https://docs.google.com/?authuser=0...y00OGExLWJjYmYtZmViNGQ0ZGUyY2Yx&filter=images

Link doesn't work for me either, sorry.

I love the sound of the terrain - it's great for whipping and drafting, and it'll be be good for Caste-specialists or (with a bit of land) Caste-workshops, too.

Fish 2E of stone makes settling on the stone or 1S of the stone reasonable. Either will need a monument for a border pop to get the fish. Settling on the jungle could only be right if it got some island land or a second seafood, and that was worth delaying the stone for the Pyramids.

If we settle 1S of stone, we need 8 turns to put up a quarry, so 7 turns of a single hammer and 8 more turns at 5 hammers are enough (2 overflow). Then build a warrior (4 turns), then 9 more turns to build the WB, one turn to move it to the fish and wait for the border pop. The worker has to put a road on the quarry. At size 6 (working fish, quarry, three workshops and a specialist, say) it pays 2.05 city maintenance and 1.02 distance.

If we settle on stone, we need 6 turns to put up a mine, so 5 turns of 2 hammers, then 7 turns of 5 hammers finish the monument. Then warrior in 5 turns (3 overflow), switch to WB for 9 turns, in time to move out and fish straight after the border pop. The worker doesn't need to put a road on the mine now, and may never need to later. At size 6 it pays 1.71 city maintenance and 1.02 distance.

So settling on stone works the fish three turns sooner, is worth about 50 in maintenance over the next 150 turns (a little more when running Rep, less when we have a courthouse) when our economy is fairly relevant, and we save 2-5 worker turns. I suspect the faster access to stone will mean we get to whip our forge a few turns earlier for a turn or two faster on the Pyramids.

Is there any reason not to settle on the stone?

 

[Grifftavian]

Hmmm... sorry about the link. I'll e-mail the screen shots and interim save to everyone in a few minutes.

 

[Grifftavian]

<SNIP>

Fish 2E of stone makes settling on the stone or 1S of the stone reasonable. Either will need a monument for a border pop to get the fish. Settling on the jungle could only be right if it got some island land or a second seafood, and that was worth delaying the stone for the Pyramids.

If we settle 1S of stone, we need 8 turns to put up a quarry, so 7 turns of a single hammer and 8 more turns at 5 hammers are enough (2 overflow). Then build a warrior (4 turns), then 9 more turns to build the WB, one turn to move it to the fish and wait for the border pop. The worker has to put a road on the quarry. At size 6 (working fish, quarry, three workshops and a specialist, say) it pays 2.05 city maintenance and 1.02 distance.

If we settle on stone, we need 6 turns to put up a mine, so 5 turns of 2 hammers, then 7 turns of 5 hammers finish the monument. Then warrior in 5 turns (3 overflow), switch to WB for 9 turns, in time to move out and fish straight after the border pop. The worker doesn't need to put a road on the mine now, and may never need to later. At size 6 it pays 1.71 city maintenance and 1.02 distance.

So settling on stone works the fish three turns sooner, is worth about 50 in maintenance over the next 150 turns (a little more when running Rep, less when we have a courthouse) when our economy is fairly relevant, and we save 2-5 worker turns. I suspect the faster access to stone will mean we get to whip our forge a few turns earlier for a turn or two faster on the Pyramids.

Is there any reason not to settle on the stone?

Settling on the Stone will have 6 tiles of the BFC will be shared with Fish Hills (4 Coastal, 1 Ocean, 1 Grass), whereas settling 1S of the Stone (on the Grass Hill) will have 2 tiles shared with Fish Hills (1 Coastal, 1 Grass). So long term, settling on the Stone would limit the population size of both FH & City #3. And FH is already sharing 6 tiles with CC (1 Clam Net, 1Corn Farm, 1PMine, 3 Coastal). That's the only reason I can see. However, that may not offset getting the Stone sooner (thereby improving our chances of completing The Pyramids) and the reduced maintenance costs you calculated.

Settling on the Jungle would pick up a tile from an adjacent island, but that tile is also a jungle tile, and it would lose a grass tile which could become a Workshop.

Changing subject: should we research Iron Working after we finish Writing? IMO, might be a good possibility of finding Iron on one of those desert tiles, or the desert hill, near those Pigs!

 

[bcool]

Settling on the Stone is the way to go.

Pushing up IW probably isn't worth it. We will be researching IW but I think getting through to Literature is more valuable than knowing where the iron is. Unless we find a large land mass and expect to have to deal with barbarians or if we meet an AI Iron Working can be delayed until we have to research it for the astronomy beeline.

Griff, where is the workboat 4 going? I think we want this workboat to go as far as it can away from us. So pick a direction and go. Southeast was suggested but maybe now it should go East.

 

[Grifftavian]

Settling on the Stone is the way to go.

Pushing up IW probably isn't worth it. We will be researching IW but I think getting through to Literature is more valuable than knowing where the iron is. Unless we find a large land mass and expect to have to deal with barbarians or if we meet an AI Iron Working can be delayed until we have to research it for the astronomy beeline.

Two for Settling on the Stone. Anyone else care to voice an opinion?

Just asking about IW, but you're probably correct, it can't wait for now. My turn set is only going to go through completion of Writing, so plenty of time for more discussions on this.

Griff, where is the workboat 4 going? I think we want this workboat to go as far as it can away from us. So pick a direction and go. Southeast was suggested but maybe now it should go East.

No problems. There is a desert tile revealed 2NE of the WB's current location, it can sail toward that & continue east. The other option would be to back track a couple of turns to explore the land SE of the Stone, but heading NE toward the desert tile would bust fog sooner. EDIT: The Galley could explore this after dropping off Settler & Worker

I think the Galley can bust a little fog to it east before heading back to CC to pick up the Settler & Worker.

 

[Ronnie1]

Just looked at the save, thanks griff!

I don't see a reason to not settle on the stone, we actually save time, money, and worker turns.

Using flying camera, there is more land both SE and due E, and lots of it from what I can tell.

I vote settle on stone and explore due E. I think there are more jungles SE and more forests due E.

 

[adrianj]

Geez, trying to get a look at screenshots is proving to be quite a pain. But I've got there in the end.

Settle on Stone vs 1S of it: I presume settling on the stone will give 2 for the city tile? So net 5 when added to the mine. The stone when quarried I presume is 4, so again net 5. So yeah, I can't think of any long term negatives for settling on the stone (sharing coastal tiles with another city is not something I would consider bad).

My vote is also explore due E, and this WB should probably go long since it has a head start. I think that directly East/West directions are more likely to find the AI and more interesting land masses.

Can somebody remind me of our expected tech path all the way to Astro? My guess is:
Writing -> Code of laws (Courthouses+Caste System) -> Maths (aqueducts+HG) -> Aesthetics -> Literature (GLib) -> Iron Working -> Machinery -> Alphabet (remove GS bulb option) -> Compass (bulb) -> Optics (bulb) -> Astro (bulb x2)

Does that about sum it up? Obviously, if we aren't isolated then Alpha goes up the list, possibly even acquired through trade. Currency should also be not over looked - where will this fit it? After both maths+alpha for the 20% optional prerequisite bonus?

 

[Grifftavian]

Looks like we have a consensus for settling on the Stone, so I'll play out the remainder of my turn set as planned, except it looks like I'll need to put 1 turn in a 0% Science to finish up Writing. WB4 will continue exploring to the east. Galley 1 will bust a little fog to its east before returning to CC to pick up Settler & Worker. Will start ~20 - 30 minutes from this post.

Just enough time to do a Haka!

 

[bcool]

Just a reminder to carefully time the galley moves so you are ready to pick up the settler when it is done.

Can somebody remind me of our expected tech path all the way to Astro? My guess is:
Writing -> Code of laws (Courthouses+Caste System) -> Maths (aqueducts+HG) -> Aesthetics -> Literature (GLib) -> Iron Working -> Machinery -> Alphabet (remove GS bulb option) -> Compass (bulb) -> Optics (bulb) -> Astro (bulb x2)

I think it was suggested we fit Currency in right after Math. Since getting the trade routes earlier is better. I assume this would be more than the 20% optional prereq bonus.

I believe the discount on currency (936 ) would be ~187 after modifiers and I imagine we would have at least 5 cities by the time we finish currency so 5 trade routes of at least 2 right (with overseas trade) for a total of ~10/turn. So if we finish currency ~19 turns earlier we would save about the same amount as the prereq discount. It would be somewhat less if we had a library or 2 and/or an academy since those would multiple the raw commerce of the trade routes.

This also suggest that currency pays for itself in approximately 50-75 turns (assuming 20% discount from 1 pre-req and an average gai n of 10-15 commerce from the extra trade routes). Would be a bit less if we have multiplying buildings.

edit: of course we have to look at all of the ramifications of earlier currency... It would delay Literature, but I'm not sure that means it would delay the GLib since we might not be in a position to immediately start to build it. Where we fit in currency might depend on how the timing works out on the builds. The Great Library is more valuable in terms of science than currency would be and is more critical in getting the GS to bulb Astronomy.

Does it make sense to bulb compass and optics? How much do we waste from the bulb? Can we do estimates of the values of an Academy even a settled GS in the Academy city might beat the bulbs when the waste is accounted for?

 

[Ronnie1]

Does it make sense to bulb compass and optics?

It makes more sense to bulb Machinery > Optics > Astro....Machinery is double when compared to Compass.

 

[bcool]

We haven't discussed the Hanging Gardens either. aj just mentioned it indirectly in his tech plan and we have stone so it is a very appealing early wonder especially if we expand quickly and are still in Slavery. That extra pop could be very profitably whipping into a granary or courthouse which might allow us to switch to caste system with significantly more infrastructure in place.

 

[Grifftavian]

Quick note: it is T106, 2 turns remaining to finish Writing. WB4 has made contact with an English Archer 15 tile east of Fish Hills. Victoria has 3 cities and no resources to trade. Have not yet found English territory (i.e., her Archer is out on walkabout).

I don't think it changes much, but I'll pause and get on Windows Messenger in a few minutes.

 

[adrianj]

A GS bulb on Epic speed is worth 2250 + 4.5/population. So we could expect maybe 2500.

True cost of Compass (after prereq bonus) is 780 . So bulbing that is definitely quite a waste.
True cost of Optics is 1170. So not a great deal there either.
Machinery is 1365, so not bad value, but it has the added isue that a GS would rather bulb Calendar at this stage.
Astro is one of those few techs that gives no prereq bonus, so true cost is 4680. A double bulb of this is pretty good value.

So I guess the only efficient bulb if we're on a pretty strict beeline is Astro itself.

Other uses for the GS are of course to settle, build academy, or save to bulb something else (eg, Philo or Education). I'll assume the capital is producing at least 20 raw , so in that respect an Academy is more profitable than a settled GS. But, if the city is producing say 30 (couple of scientist specialists for example) then compared to a bulb of Optics it would take 78 turns to pay back the investment. I would have hoped that we would be almost done after 78 turns! And that's just to break even. The Academy is in fact a bit worse than that, because it's unlikely we'll be running 100% science slider.

A settled GS is pretty easy to calculate how many turns it pays for itself. Assume at least a library, representation civic, and maybe generously consider the 1=2, and it produces 13/turn, or 17 with an Academy. That would still take ~70 turns before it is more profitable than bulbing Optics.

I guess in conclusion, given that our expected time frame is really quite short (less than 100 turns), I don't think using GScientists for anything other than bulbing is going to help to get us to Astro ASAP. Beyond Astro, how much tech do we think we need?

 

[adrianj]

Ooo, contact!

 

[adrianj]

Victoria is reachable by galley. Question: Is Iron Working a higher priority now? Reason being we can see where iron is so that a) we settle near some before Vicky does, b) we use it to take her out?

Does this put a damper on our "Duckweeding" settlers, if we have to compete with Vicky for space?

If we're aggressively settling every scrap of land around us, does it matter if we have visibility of Iron?

 

[mabraham]

Settling on the Stone will have 6 tiles of the BFC will be shared with Fish Hills (4 Coastal, 1 Ocean, 1 Grass), whereas settling 1S of the Stone (on the Grass Hill) will have 2 tiles shared with Fish Hills (1 Coastal, 1 Grass). So long term, settling on the Stone would limit the population size of both FH & City #3. And FH is already sharing 6 tiles with CC (1 Clam Net, 1Corn Farm, 1PMine, 3 Coastal). That's the only reason I can see. However, that may not offset getting the Stone sooner (thereby improving our chances of completing The Pyramids) and the reduced maintenance costs you calculated.

Sure, but long term their populations will be limited by whipping, running specialists, working workshops and drafting, too. The only realistic way of growing Stone Mountain is to work the coasts, and I suspect that our empire's need for for triremes and warriors and workboats will mean we can't afford to take much time to do that.

Changing subject: should we research Iron Working after we finish Writing? IMO, might be a good possibility of finding Iron on one of those desert tiles, or the desert hill, near those Pigs!

Pushing up IW probably isn't worth it. We will be researching IW but I think getting through to Literature is more valuable than knowing where the iron is. Unless we find a large land mass and expect to have to deal with barbarians or if we meet an AI Iron Working can be delayed until we have to research it for the astronomy beeline.

Agreed we can delay IW until we see its need. Getting iron also stops us building warriors, and so far I think we should be planning for many warrior-defended cities.

We should push Animal Husbandry up the tech order. It's probably not worth delaying the FH library to switch from writing to AH to get the bonus AH gives to Writing (IIRC).

 

[adrianj]

I've edited my first post in the thread to keep track of AI information as it comes to hand
See it here

 

[Grifftavian]

OK, I made an interim save at T106, just after First Contact. I made a few screen shots as well. At aj's suggestion, I open the Diplo window with Victoria 4 or 5 times, most responses were friendly/neutral, but last said "Fear my Archer".

Almost forgot: Copper 3SE+1E of Stone!

will send e-mail shortly!

 

[bcool]

Now that we have met an AI, this changes a lot of things.

Tech
Do we still beeline Astronomy? Or construction for catapults, or do we beeline Civil Service/Machinery for macemen?
(Techs that AI know give us a discount, we can often figure out what techs they have before alphabet by carefully analyzing the boost to research we get when we tech something they know)

Production
I think we still Duckweed the Pyramids since we expand about as fast without Duckweeding as we do just expanding.

Early war possibilities, try to take out Victoria with an early axe/sword rush with or without catapults.

Trades (we open borders immediately of course) Makes currency more valuable. Makes Alphabet more valuable.

Odds of meeting other AI just went way up, makes exploring more important too.