[Sword of Islam]: Byzantine Conquest

Uhm, is there a mechanism that I am not aware of? I thought the whole point was to get the money we need + as much science as we wanted, and that 1 commerce in our case is x gold and (1-x) science? Short term being that in the example above it starts to produce gold/science after 8 turns, instead of after 13 turns.

Currently 1 commerce is 0,30 gold and 0,70 beaker, plus the benefits from a market or library. Which means that we should build libraries too.

Don't forget the monasteries.

So since Constantinople has so much more commerce bonus, building a fairground there surely is more advantageous?
I think of commerce basically like gold, since the main point in early game is to increase the availability of gold for science.

On the same note, blizzrd, do you like to build butcheries first or confectioners first (former is cheaper but has less benefit)?

rrosen said:

Uhm, is there a mechanism that I am not aware of? I thought the whole point was to get the money we need + as much science as we wanted, and that 1 commerce in our case is x gold and (1-x) science? Short term being that in the example above it starts to produce gold/science after 8 turns, instead of after 13 turns.

Click to expand...

1 commerce is affected by our taxation rate (currently 30%). Only at 100% taxatation does 1 commerce = 1 gold.

+2 gold from Spiral Minaret bonus is just that.

Both commerce and the Spiral Minaret bonus are subject to building bonuses such as Market. So 0.3 + 25% = 0.375g from Fairground, whereas +2 + 25% = 2.5g. The latter is between 6 and 7 times better than the former.

... but stating it in such a way ignores the extra science for fairgrounds, and more science is the reason why we want to increase our income.

AnotherPacifist said:

So since Constantinople has so much more commerce bonus, building a fairground there surely is more advantageous?

Click to expand...

The bonus is applied to both Fairground and Church bonuses equally. Our capital has better trade routes and so a Fairground would add +3 commerce instead of +1.

So +3 commerce x0.3 taxation = 0.9g (before bonuses) instead of 0.3g, but +2g still trumps both by a long way.

I think of commerce basically like gold, since the main point in early game is to increase the availability of gold for science.

Click to expand...

Commerce is only like gold at 100% science. AP, this is not a good way to look at it.

On the same note, blizzrd, do you like to build butcheries first or confectioners first (former is cheaper but has less benefit)?

Click to expand...

Confectioners above Butchers, unless the health situation is more important.

rrosen said:

... but stating it in such a way ignores the extra science for fairgrounds, and more science is the reason why we want to increase our income.

Click to expand...

True, there is also a +0.7 beaker benefit to a fairground in Sinope. But with no Library yet, this is negligible compared to the +2.5g benefit from the Church.

Fairgrounds have their place and will be beneficial once we (a) get companies (b) get harbors and (c) get more trade routes to foreign civs.

But at this stage, there is absolutely no way we should be building them before Churches and Monasteries, because the Sprial Minaret is so much better than anything else right now.

But you're forgetting the 0.7 + 10% science= 0.77 beaker.

0.375 g + 0.77 beaker in 8 turns
vs
2.5 g in 11 moves

Early beakers are better than later ones (due to the increasing cost of techs with more cities).

But I'm convinced, blizzrd, churches are worth it for the extra moves. I was wrong.

gold = science as you can raise your beaker slider.

Spiral minaret+churches+monastaries= is better, especially with markets and no libraries

You know, I just noticed Damascus has Shia. That's equals Al-Azhar in early game after Education is known. We should build it before the Fatimids.

Science Rules, are you playing?

My turn set will be posted soon.

What kind of specialist should I choose for Narekavank in Smyrna?

I'm not going to play beyond the second turn until I get a response.

Also, should we building blacksmiths first or monasteries? We have serious financial problems now, which supports building monasteries, but blacksmiths will allow for more hammers, which we will need if we wish to defeat the Seljuks.

Here are my notes for those two turns:

Turn 0: Orthodox Monasteries and Churchers placed in front of fairgrounds in the building qeues of several cities.
Damascus will finishe its fairground next turn so orthodox church was added after it.

Turn 1:Assigned Kaisarea's citizens to sacrifice a few short-term hammers for the sake of one extra citizen working a farmed plains tile.

Turn 2:Meet Buyids.
Tarsos finishes lighthouse; begins orthodox monastary followed by a church
Ankara & Sevastea finish horseman; money's a bit tight so I start building monastaries in both cities. Forges added to queue after the monasteries.
Additional horsemen will only increase unit maintenance costs.
One horseman was lost to a Muslim horseman, but I avenged its death by killing the Barbarian with another horseman.
Our mercenary horsearcher and our city raider swordsman also saw a little action defeating incoming barbarian spearmen.

which city?

Never mind, I'll just go with a scholar. If anyone strongly objects, let me know ASAP and I'll replay those turns.

Finished the set.

Here are my notes and the save:

Turn 0: Orthodox Monastaries and Churchers placed in front of fairgrounds in the building qeues of several cities.
Damascus will finishe its fairground next turn so orthodox church was added after it.

Turn 1: Assigned Kaisarea's citizens to sacrifice a few short-term hammers for the sake of one extra citizen working a farmed plains tile.

Turn 2: Tarsos finishes lighthouse; begins orthodox monastary followed by a church
Ankara & Sevastea finish horseman; money's a bit tight so I start building monastaries in both cities. Forges added to queue after the monastaries.
Additional horsemen will only increase unit maintenance costs.
One horseman was lost to a Muslim horseman, but I avenged its death by killing the Barbarian with another horseman.
Our mercenary horse archer and our city raider swordsman also saw a little action defeating incoming barbarian spearmen.
Agricultural Science is our next research project.

Turn 3: Narekavank finished in Smyrna, begins monasary, I choose a free scholar. Kontantinopolis finishes fairground, begins monastary (I missed this on turn 0).
Trapezounta begins harbor.
Attalea begins blacksmith.

Turn 4: I refuse to vassalize Makuria.

Turn 5: We have 30 gold in the bank and lose 3 per turn with the slider at 70% science.

Turn 6: Sinopi finishes orthodox church, Ankara finishes orthodox monastary, both begin blacksmith.

Turn 7: Konstantinopoulis finishes orthodox monastery; begins blacksmith. Road to Armenia is complete.

Turn 8: Damascus finishes orthodox monastery; begins blacksmith.

Turn 9: Nothing interesting

Turn 10: I refuse to pay tribute to the Abbasid Caliphate.

My notes omit a few barbarian battles that ended without losing any of our units. I promoted a spearman with guerrilla and sent him to the hills on the Bulgarian border.

Science Rules said:

Never mind, I'll just go with a scholar. If anyone strongly objects, let me know ASAP and I'll replay those turns.

Click to expand...

No strong objection here. I would have chosen priest, only because the new Great Priest ability might be useful towards the end of our game if we are trying to spread our State Religion wide and far. Haven't actually used it yet myself though.

IMO Scholar is always a good option. I thought we were trying to avoid the religious victory, so why would we want to use Great Prophets to convert 5 cities??

If you want to get a saint, there's no problem. Priests are cheap.
I agree with the scholar.

Turn 0: 970AD
73g +9gpt @ 70% science. Request 40g from Makuria. Trade Fish to Armenia for 1gpt. Request 20g from Armenia.

Our spy in Samarra could steal Mosaic Art, but we really want Education. We have 1781EP vs Abbasids and with our 50% bonus must be pretty close to being able to steal Education. Lets see if opening trade routes with Abbasids (extra 20% discount to espionage) opens the way to stealing Education.

Declare war on Buyids, who are already at war with Abbasids. Open Borders with Abbasids, who are now fighting a common enemy. But still no trade routes, because of the fog of war between Damascus and Samarra. So our Turcopole merc Horse Archer heads out of Damascus and into the fog.

Turn 1: 972AD
Pillage a cottage NE of Attaleia, in the Sultanate of Rum spawn zone (+9g). Trade Astrolabe to Abbasids for 60g. More fog clearing by our Horse Archer, trade routes should open up next turn.

Turn 2: 974AD
Agricultural Science is learnt, Selective Breeding next (12 turns). Fairground in Dorylaion, Blacksmith next. Church in Tarsos, Blacksmith next. More Bulgarian raiders spawn in Thrace. Pillage a cottage NE of Attaleia (+9g) and also a cottage NW of Damascus (+9g).

Hey presto! With trade routes open, we steal Education from Abbasids.
Turn 3: 976AD
Ankyra finishes Blacksmith, starts Church. Hello, what have we here... An undefended Relic in Buyid-controlled Bagdad! Our Turopole Horse Archer relieves the Buyids of their Relic and liberates Bagdad to the Abbasids (+19g for capturing). Also we pillage a cottage S of Sevasteia (+10g). We have 286g +20gpt @70% science, so I decide to raise the slider to 80% science to shave a turn from Selective Breeding. Finish with 286g -13gpt @80% science.

Turn 4: 978AD
Destroy Barbarian Horseman outside Ankyra and a Pirate War Galley @ Attaleia. Sign a cease-fire with Buyids.

Turn 5: 980AD
Blacksmith completed in Kaiseria, Church next. Finish off Bulgarian barbs around Adrianopolis.

Turn 6: 982AD
Blacksmith completed in Adrianopolis, Church next. Church in Sevasteia, Blacksmith next. Harbor in Trapezounta, Blacksmith next.

Turn 7: 984AD
Blacksmith in Konstantinopolis, Library next. Blacksmith in Attaleia, Barracks next. Church in Ankyra, Fairground next.

Turn 8: 986AD
Library in Smyrna, Blacksmith next.

Turn 9: 988AD
Monastery in Kaiseria, Tannery next. Blacksmith in Sinopi, Barracks next.

Turn 10: 990AD
Barracks in Attaleia, Tannery next. Fairground in Ankyra, Archery Range next. A Great Saint is born in Konstantinopolis.

To do:

1. Once Selective Breeding comes in, build Stables in Anykra, Attaleria, Kaiseria, Sevasteia and Sinopi and then lots of Cataphracts.
2. Once Blacksmith is completed in Damascus, build Al-Azhar there.
3. Decide what to do with Great Saint.
4. Settle our Relic in Konstantinopolis.

We could start a Golden Age to boost production of Cataphracts. I suggest we should wait until most of our unit-building cities (see above) have Stables (using the bonus from Organised Religion to build Stables first) and then launch a Golden Age and switch to Theocracy and probably Religious Law also (not 100% about RL). Then just before Golden Age is over, switch back to Organised Religion.

Your plan for Golden Age sounds good to me.
What's the correct playing order now? The original or the modified?