SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

Ok, I got the old peace treaty canceled and the new peace try going with the 10 gold beg T113. But now Shaka is threatening Borsippa with a stack of 7 units vs. 3 defender + our axeman. Hamma's reinforcements are 3 turns away and Hamma says talk to Shaka if we want to broker peace between them.

Hmm. We might not be able to halt their war.
 
Arrgg. Hamma put a chariot in the worst spot to take GhostTown right away if we give it to Shaka. Uploaded at the start of T114. Otherwise, rest went according to plan.

Spoiler :


Here is your Session Turn Log from 150 BC to 25 BC:

Spoiler :
Turn 109, 150 BC: BabsTown has been founded.
Turn 109, 150 BC: In a gracious act of generosity, Gandhi has liberated BabsTown, which passed under Babylonian control.
Turn 109, 150 BC: You have trained a Spy in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 109, 150 BC: You have trained Hindu Missionary in Deergold City. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 109, 150 BC: SheepTown can no longer work on Hindu Missionary. The lost ℤ is converted into 31ℴ!
Turn 109, 150 BC: The borders of CowTown have expanded!
Turn 109, 150 BC: You have trained a Settler in Crabsville. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 109, 150 BC: The borders of Island have expanded!
Turn 109, 150 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Island. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Tokugawa adopts Theocracy!
Turn 109, 150 BC: The Parthenon has been built in a far away land!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Socrates (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 109, 150 BC: A Indian revolt has taken place in Trojan Horse!

Turn 110, 125 BC: Delhi can no longer work on Hindu Missionary. The lost ℤ is converted into 18ℴ!

Turn 111, 100 BC: HatsTown has been founded.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Hinduism has spread in HatsTown.
Turn 111, 100 BC: In a gracious act of generosity, Gandhi has liberated HatsTown, which passed under Egyptian control.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Hamsville has been founded.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Hinduism has spread in Hamsville.

Turn 112, 75 BC: Deergold City can hurry Scout for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow, 20ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 27 turns.
Turn 112, 75 BC: SheepTown has grown to size 4.
Turn 112, 75 BC: SheepTown can hurry Hindu Missionary for 2⇴ with 33ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 12 turns.
Turn 112, 75 BC: PigsGems has grown to size 4.
Turn 112, 75 BC: The borders of PigsGems are about to expand.
Turn 112, 75 BC: The borders of GhostTown are about to expand.
Turn 112, 75 BC: LizTown has been founded.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Hinduism has spread in LizTown.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Delhi will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 112, 75 BC: CowTown will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 112, 75 BC: You have trained a Scout in Deergold City. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 112, 75 BC: The borders of PigsGems have expanded!
Turn 112, 75 BC: The borders of GhostTown have expanded!
Turn 112, 75 BC: Tokugawa has completed The Hanging Gardens!
Turn 112, 75 BC: A Spy has been stumbled upon while operating near the Indian city of GhostTown!

Turn 113, 50 BC: Delhi has grown to size 7.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Delhi can hurry Barracks for 1⇴ with 33ℤ overflow, 12ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 30 turns.
Turn 113, 50 BC: CowTown has grown to size 3.
Turn 113, 50 BC: PigsGems will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Crabsville can hurry Lighthouse for 1⇴ with 4ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Hammuragawa for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 113, 50 BC: PigsGems will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Island will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 113, 50 BC: You have trained Hindu Missionary in SheepTown. Work has now begun on a Hindu Temple.

Turn 114, 25 BC: Delhi can hurry Settler for 2⇴ with 28ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 29 turns.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Deergold City can hurry Forge for 1⇴ with 27ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 25 turns.
Turn 114, 25 BC: CowTown can hurry Barracks for 1⇴ with 35ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 26 turns.
Turn 114, 25 BC: PigsGems has grown to size 5.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Island has grown to size 2.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Elizagawa has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 114, 25 BC: Elizagawa has no worst enemy.


Buffy:

Spoiler :
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 109/500 (150 BC) [18-Apr-2012 22:31:44]
Research begun: Machinery (547 Turns)
Bombay founded
BabsTown lost
Delhi begins: Spy (3 turns)
Deergold City begins: Hindu Missionary (5 turns)
Tech traded to Tokugawa (Japan): Polytheism
Tech traded to Tokugawa (Japan): Monotheism
Tech traded to Tokugawa (Japan): Theology
0% Research: 1 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 11 per turn, 130 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Delhi
Delhi grows to size 5
Delhi finishes: Spy
Deergold City finishes: Hindu Missionary
CowTown's borders expand
Crabsville finishes: Settler
Island's borders expand
Island finishes: Granary

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Hammuragawa (Babylon) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Elizagawa (England) towards Genghigawa (Mongolia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Civics Change: Tokugawa(Japan) from 'Paganism' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 110/500 (125 BC) [18-Apr-2012 23:09:24]
Tech traded to Hammuragawa (Babylon): Monotheism
0% Research: 1 per turn
60% Espionage: 46 per turn
40% Gold: -32 per turn, 192 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in CowTown
Delhi grows to size 6
Delhi finishes: Library
Deergold City grows to size 3

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Tokugawa (Japan) towards Shakagawa (Zululand), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 111/500 (100 BC) [18-Apr-2012 23:31:45]
Bombay founded
Hinduism has spread: HatsTown
Hinduism has been removed: HatsTown
HatsTown lost
Hinduism has spread: HatsTown (Egyptian Empire)
Bombay founded
Hinduism has spread: Hamsville
Deergold City begins: Scout (2 turns)
Delhi begins: Hindu Missionary (2 turns)
SheepTown begins: Hindu Missionary (7 turns)
0% Research: 2 per turn
100% Espionage: 77 per turn
0% Gold: -63 per turn, 178 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in CowTown
Delhi finishes: Hindu Missionary
SheepTown grows to size 4
CowTown finishes: Settler
PigsGems grows to size 4

Turn 112/500 (75 BC) [19-Apr-2012 00:30:12]
Delhi begins: Barracks (3 turns)
Bombay founded
Hinduism has spread: LizTown
CowTown begins: Hindu Missionary (5 turns)
0% Research: 6 per turn
100% Espionage: 84 per turn
0% Gold: -72 per turn, 115 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi grows to size 7
Deergold City finishes: Scout
CowTown grows to size 3
CowTown finishes: Hindu Missionary
PigsGems's borders expand
GhostTown's borders expand

Turn 113/500 (50 BC) [19-Apr-2012 01:01:10]
CowTown begins: Barracks (4 turns)
Delhi begins: Settler (4 turns)
A Mine was built near Deergold City
Hinduism has been removed: LizTown
LizTown lost
Hinduism has spread: LizTown (English Empire)
0% Research: 3 per turn
40% Espionage: 34 per turn
60% Gold: -23 per turn, 53 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Delhi
The whip was applied in SheepTown
SheepTown finishes: Hindu Missionary
PigsGems grows to size 5
PigsGems finishes: Hindu Monastery
Island grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Elizagawa (England) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 114/500 (25 BC) [19-Apr-2012 01:44:48]
PigsGems begins: Settler (6 turns)
 
Maybe gifting GhostTown will make Shaka feel in danger so they will both be willing to talk peace again and we can bribe Hamma to end it? However, if that fails or Theology isn't enough to convince Shaka to stop, then we lost GhostTown to Hamma and don't have an easy way to get Shaka involved with Hindu. Up north, that Hindu Missionary is 2 tiles too far back to infect the Hamma city in hopes it might get taken T115 :(. My thought was to keep them back from the front lines.

Or we make peace with Shaka using gold if that is still an option. See if we can use Theology to get him to stop his war with Hamma. If he won't, we hold onto GhostTown for the next AP vote and better prospects to get through Shaka's lands? Blargh, stupid chariot!

If we are really desperate crazy for Shaka to join the Holy war against Liz, maybe we can offer him Hammsville and LizTown after we take them back from Liz. Hamma would take GhostTown and Hammsville T115, but not LizTown and then Shaka would be pulled into the holy war vs. Liz. We'd have to pray our culture pressure takes LizTown back sooner or later so we could then gift it to her. Or see if they will sue for peace if Shaka has both GhostTown and Hammsville threatened while he is only threatening one city.
 
If we give Shaka GhostTown and Polytheism for peace, I believe the best we can offer for him to accept peace with Hamaragawa is Mono. He can't get Monothiesm without Polytheism. I assume he got PH for CoL. We need on more turn, but don't have it.

That chariot is escorting to workers. I have seen units tasked to a certain duty stay with it even though they have an opportunity to take a city or worker. I don't think that is a reasonable gamble.

Note that Hatsegawa has met Shaka. Can't we make the Holy War on Shaka now? This gets us up Hatty's side. Then try to make a holy war against Liz next vote?
 
If we give Shaka GhostTown and Polytheism for peace, I believe the best we can offer for him to accept peace with Hamaragawa is Mono. He can't get Monothiesm without Polytheism. I assume he got PH for CoL. We need on more turn, but don't have it.

That chariot is escorting to workers. I have seen units tasked to a certain duty stay with it even though they have an opportunity to take a city or worker. I don't think that is a reasonable gamble.

Note that Hatsegawa has met Shaka. Can't we make the Holy War on Shaka now? This gets us up Hatty's side. Then try to make a holy war against Liz next vote?

Oh wow, Hats must have just met Shaka T114. Very interesting. Ya, we can all do holy war versus Shaka now if we wish then I believe. :D.

It might also get us 10 turns to steal Liz blind. Wealth builds + espionage mmm.

It would also eliminate the Hatsegawa war dec threat (which was like 50%?). She will be too busy attacking Shaka T125 to be bribed by Liz to attack us. We'll have the whole right side pretty much permanently open I think.



Because of no tech brokering, you can give poly, mono, and even Theology one after the other in the same turn as we did with Tokugawa. The best we can offer Shaka to make peace with Hammu would be Theology.
 
Oh wow, Hats must have just met Shaka T114. Very interesting. Ya, we can all do holy war versus Shaka now if we wish then I believe. :D.

It might also get us 10 turns to steal Liz blind. Wealth builds + espionage mmm.

Sounds awesome. IIRC the last set of changes were because Hatse hadn't met Shaka. So now we can go back to the original plan. If we'd been scrubs, we could have just done the original plan and never known our luck! :lol:

The Shaka war buys us time to steal efficiently from Liz (Machinery too!) and then set up a holy war on her later. Keeps the Shaka holy war counters ticking. If Hammu ever gets his act together and can take a Shaka city then that might be cause for concern (Shaka might have to be given GhostTown while he'd still take it, unless we could capture and infect his real city).
 
That chariot is escorting to workers. I have seen units tasked to a certain duty stay with it even though they have an opportunity to take a city or worker. I don't think that is a reasonable gamble.

I ran a test for the above and the city was left alone bay the chariot. Note I made a "hammu" city, the capitol, threatened by the "shaka" AI.

Edit: I played about 6 more turns and the city was unguarded the whole time and never taken.
 

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Good progress, Kaitzilla.

Hatse has not met Shaka yet!!!

Hammu has Chariots threatening both GhostTown and Hammsville. :mad:
I'd rather not give LizTown to Shaka, so it's better to buy peace.

I believe we will be able to buy peace Hammu-Shaka from Hammu after we gift GhostTown to Shaka, then they both threaten one city.
 
Interesting, we have enough EPs to investigate LizTown - there is a continental trade route to the Persian city of Saxon (former barb city).

Since there is a trade network connection from LizTown to Persia, which means that our Kashi is linked as well, I think it is very likely that Cyrus is the unknown Hindu.

All AIs we know have met Cyrus, we know that because "War with Cyrusgawa" appears for every leader in Toku's column of the F4-Glance screen. Note that "War with Shakagawa" does not appear for Toku-Hatse because Hatse hasn't met Shaka yet.

So Holy War vs. a heathen Liz should work. :)

Liz has Feudalism and will get Machinery next turn (-> the Archer she is currently building in LizTown will auto-upgrade to a Longbow).
Is she on her way to Banking for Mercantilism? That would be nice.
 
Turn 109, 150 BC: A Indian revolt has taken place in Trojan Horse!
Nice!

Hmm, there is an unimproved bronze outside of Akkad's BFC that could allow a ship to sail around the ice if it were forted. Hopefully Hamma forts it some day to open a sea passage through.
Unfortunately only forts in a vassal's territory can be used as canals. Open borders with a normal AI won't work. :(
 
Great work Kaitzilla...

So the hope is that we make peace with Shaka by giving him GhostTown, then negotiate peace between him and Shaka (either by talking to Hammuragawa or Shaka). With a threatened city on both sides it looks promising that we could negotiate peace.

Make the tech steal attempts, then DoW Elizabeth, then take her cities, then next then Holy War vote...
 
Great work Kaitzilla...

So the hope is that we make peace with Shaka by giving him GhostTown, then negotiate peace between him and Shaka (either by talking to Hammuragawa or Shaka). With a threatened city on both sides it looks promising that we could negotiate peace.

Make the tech steal attempts, then DoW Elizabeth, then take her cities, then next then Holy War vote...

Ya, that is the current hope. Hamma's main stack is 2N2W of GhostTown, so hopefully that would be considered threatening to Shaka's GhostTown like the chariot is actually doing. Then we should be able to trade Theology+Metal Casting to Hammarugawa for peace because the last time he wanted 1000:science: and 120 gold, so 1500ish:science: should be plenty with the length of the war decreasing the price some.

I will make peace with Shaka for GhostTown, then try to buy peace with Shaka-Hammu with techs. If that won't work, I will check to see if shaka will take Hammsville and consult the team.

Assuming peace is reached between the 3 of us, then I can gift Liz Hammsville, steal currency, DoW Liz, take both cities back, and finish the turnset as planned. Then all hopes turn to peaceful relations with Hatsegawa until the holy war starts. I can play the rest tonight.
 
ooh my head hurts...

I'm afraid if we don't intervene, it will be almost guaranteed that Liz bribes Hatse into the war against us.

We should make sure that it doesn't happen by:
  • converting Liz to Hinduism -> Liz-Hatse drop from FRIENDLY to PLEASED, that way Liz doesn't trade her monopoly techs to Hatse in the bribery (but still has Monarchy)
  • asking Hatse to stop trading with Liz -> Liz will not be willing to talk to Hatse (works different than for the human player :confused:), we'll be 100% safe
 
ooh my head hurts...

I'm afraid if we don't intervene, it will be almost guaranteed that Liz bribes Hatse into the war against us.

We should make sure that it doesn't happen by:
  • converting Liz to Hinduism -> Liz-Hatse drop from FRIENDLY to PLEASED, that way Liz doesn't trade her monopoly techs to Hatse in the bribery (but still has Monarchy)
  • asking Hatse to stop trading with Liz -> Liz will not be willing to talk to Hatse (works different than for the human player :confused:), we'll be 100% safe

Ya, it has happened to us twice already. And Liz has way more tech than Tokugawa did. If we steal a tech from Hammsville, we might have just enough epsionage to flip Liz to Hinduism in LizTown. I'd have to get out the calculator and estimate the +distance% modifer we'd get in Hammsville.

That reminds me of the strangest thing I saw while doing some test games. I converted a civ to Hinduism, took their only Hindu civ, and they stayed in Hinduism :eek:. Plus, they were considered a non-member by the AP during vote. So I managed to later get a holy war going against the other Hindu civ in the game.

Hatse is willing to trade embargo Liz? Hmm, maybe Theology will be enough. If it means Liz can't bribe her I like the sound of that too. I don't care about negative diplo modifiers with Liz.
 
Hatse is not willing to trade embargo Liz, but if we get them to pleased instead of friendly maybe Hatse would.

We might have to flip Liz to Hinduism before we try to steal currency since the flip to Hinduism is more important.

It is great that Kaitzilla has comfirmed that we can call a Holy War on a "Hindu" nation :lol: So the plan to get them to pleased and then trade embargo might work and will not compromise the holy war plan. Whoot!

Assuming theology is enough to convince Hatse to trade embargo Liz...
 
Ya :hammer:, our true Hindu Brethren will happily approve a Holy War vs. the false Hindu heathens. :lol:

bool CvPlayer::isVotingMember(VoteSourceTypes eVoteSource) const
{
return (getVotes(NO_VOTE, eVoteSource) > 0);
}


no votes -> no membership :D
 
If we wanted to flip Liz to Hinduism, then the only tech we can steal is Horseback Riding I believe. There just isn't enough espionage to steal both a Hindu flip and a good tech. Spending 132:espionage: in Liztown for the flip leaves 117:espionage: in Hammsville for a tech steal. If only we didn't desperately need currency to get teching again. I had to manually check the 132:espionage: flip number in LizTown because the game is giving a final cost a bit lower than my calculations so I'm doing something wrong making estimates.

I'm not sure what Hatsegawa would charge for a trade embargo if it did come up. The other gawas suggest Theology might be a little short if you go by what they demand I think.


As for holy war against another Hindu civ, here is my test game. Just flip Ghandi to Hindu, take his only hindu city by force, and vote for holy war.
 

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Keep in mind the rule change for "No Brokering". We can trade poly, mono, and theo all in one turn.
sorry, already mentioned
 
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