Civ 5: Civilizations/Leaders Wanted!

Oh, I thought you were posting a new idea. That makes more sense. Yeah, you're right. That does sort of need to be updated now that Morocco sort of covers the desert trade spectrum of the game.
On another note, I get where you're coming from when you say that the Viet Minh should be related to ideologies, and I looked over your comment again, and you have some good suggestions about what one could do if you wanted to make the Viet Minh more ideology related, like how you could access them by founding an ideology. My only hesitation is that I feel as if it might be stereotypical to associate that one part of Vietnamese history with ideology, rather than making it part of their game play as a whole. What if though I made their base cost the same as any other Great War Infantry, but if more than two ideology tenets were adopted the cost would go down? That would sort of tie into the UA a little, and it wouldn't be too related to ideology. What do you think?

phaethon16 said:

Vietnam
Capital: Hanoi
Leader: Trung Trac
UA: Ascending Dragon. Newly created units gain +3 experience for every 2 social policies you have adopted, and +2 experience for each individual ideological tenet you adopt.
UU: Viet Minh. Replaces Great War Infantry. Attacks become ranged, with a range of one when in rough terrain. It costs less, has a weaker normal attack, and has an extra movement point.
Cost: 300
Strength: 44
Moves: 3
UB: Water Puppet Theater. Replaces Colosseum. The Water Puppet Theater provides +2, and an additional + and + for each adjacent source of water. (For example, a lake and a river would each count as separate, but if one river wraps around a city it only counts as one.)

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I think you'll get the ideological association anyway if you have the Viet Minh.

So I should keep it as it is? I feel as if parts of mt Vietnam are too complicated, like the UA. I felt like 1 experience per social policy wasn't enough, but 2 was too much. Is three experience for every two policies too complicated? Also, is the Water Puppet Theater too complicated with it getting bonuses for each adjacent source of water? I could change that to a lump sum of culture/happiness if there's just one source of water nearby.

Southeast Asia has some absolutely amazingly intricate forms of puppet theater that most Westerners unfortunately will never get a chance to experience live in person

Such as:

-Burmese puppet marionette theatre

-Indonesian wayang kulit (or shadow puppet)

-Vietnamese water puppets


Sorry I don't really have anything to contribute. I just support the water puppet idea and think Vietnam needs something like that so it's not an out-and-out military civ because we have enough of those already

phaethon16 said:

So I should keep it as it is? I feel as if parts of mt Vietnam are too complicated, like the UA. I felt like 1 experience per social policy wasn't enough, but 2 was too much. Is three experience for every two policies too complicated? Also, is the Water Puppet Theater too complicated with it getting bonuses for each adjacent source of water? I could change that to a lump sum of culture/happiness if there's just one source of water nearby.

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I think the UA is a bit too much—you could easily have +40-50 XP in the late game, which means that with either the Brandenburg Gate or the Autocracy tree, you'd be cranking out units with four promotions—everything would have Logistics right of the gate. Out of curiosity, what didn't you like about my original idea (combat strength for social policies)?

Making the UB stronger on water is nice, I like that. It's just a standard Colosseum if it's not on water, though—maybe give it a base +1 and then another +1 , +1 if it's near any source of fresh water (flat, rather than one per source)?

Just read up on Kanem-Bornu. Pretty cool! Idris Alawma sounds like a hell of a guy.

Pouakai said:

Bornu
Idris Alawma
Desert Kingdom - Every desert tile with a trade route has +1 Gold
Unique Unit: Kanembu Warror, replaces Spearman. +25% Combat strength on desert tiles
Unique Improvement: Caravan - Can be built on Oasis and desert tiles, +1 Gold (+1 additional with Currency, Banking, Economics for a total of 4 Gold), used to establish Trade Routes and when built on an oasis tile, provides additional +1 Food and Gold

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Watering Holes: Land Trade Routes in Cities with access to fresh water generate double religious pressure and +25% Gold.

Kanembu Infantry (replaces Musketman): As Musketman, but starts with Shock I promotion and costs 135 .
Kanuri Cavalry (replaces Lancer): As Lancer, but 28 Strength and grants Gold for each enemy unit killed.

The UA encourages you to settle oases, lakes, and rivers, helps you spread Islam (or any heathen faith you desire), and generates extra gold. I don't really know how trade routes will work, exactly—maybe 25% is too much. The musket UU is 10% cheaper and pre-trained by Turkish advisers; the lancer UU is 10% stronger and sells defeated enemies as slaves.

Other unique (or quasi-unique) stuff about Kanem-Bornu, if somebody else wants to take a crack at it: brick mosques, armored cavalry, the first sub-Saharan musketeers, trans-Saharan trade. Exports included cotton, kola nuts, ivory, ostrich feathers, perfume, wax, and hides, "but the most important of all were slaves." Imports included salt, horses, silks, glass, muskets, and copper. Check out these sweet hats.

The empire under Idris Alawma was kind of like the Songhai of the east—pious, expansionistic, supportive of scholarship, very big on law and order.

wigwam said:

I think the UA is a bit too much—you could easily have +40-50 XP in the late game, which means that with either the Brandenburg Gate or the Autocracy tree, you'd be cranking out units with four promotions—everything would have Logistics right of the gate. Out of curiosity, what didn't you like about my original idea (combat strength for social policies)?

Making the UB stronger on water is nice, I like that. It's just a standard Colosseum if it's not on water, though—maybe give it a base +1 and then another +1 , +1 if it's near any source of fresh water (flat, rather than one per source)?

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I really did like your original idea, which is why I sort of adopted it. The reason I changed it was that for most of the game the combat bonus is only 5%-15%. While it does grow, it still remains behind Ethiopia's combat bonus for most of the game. (Although, Ethiopia's UA has its drawbacks.) I love the idea of strengthening your cultural backbone to make your military stronger, but I felt XP was a better way. Besides, it means your armies are more adaptable, rather than just stronger which I think is truer to Vietnamese history. If I reduced the XP to one for each SP and 2 for each ideological tenet, would that be better? Also, I like your suggestion about the Water Puppet Theater and will definitely give some thought to it. I'll publish a new Vietnam soon; would you critique for me then please? Thanks for your comments.

wigwam said:

Just read up on Kanem-Bornu. Pretty cool! Idris Alawma sounds like a hell of a guy.



Watering Holes: Land Trade Routes in Cities with access to fresh water generate double religious pressure and +25% Gold.

Kanembu Infantry (replaces Musketman): As Musketman, but starts with Shock I promotion and costs 135 .
Kanuri Cavalry (replaces Lancer): As Lancer, but 28 Strength and grants Gold for each enemy unit killed.

The UA encourages you to settle oases, lakes, and rivers, helps you spread Islam (or any heathen faith you desire), and generates extra gold. I don't really know how trade routes will work, exactly—maybe 25% is too much. The musket UU is 10% cheaper and pre-trained by Turkish advisers; the lancer UU is 10% stronger and sells defeated enemies as slaves.

Other unique (or quasi-unique) stuff about Kanem-Bornu, if somebody else wants to take a crack at it: brick mosques, armored cavalry, the first sub-Saharan musketeers, trans-Saharan trade. Exports included cotton, kola nuts, ivory, ostrich feathers, perfume, wax, and hides, "but the most important of all were slaves." Imports included salt, horses, silks, glass, muskets, and copper. Check out these sweet hats.

The empire under Idris Alawma was kind of like the Songhai of the east—pious, expansionistic, supportive of scholarship, very big on law and order.

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So, on to your idea. To start with, I really like the feel of it, and how that translates into design. The UA is a great way of combining trade, religion, and the environment. I don't think a 25% boost is too strong, considering you limited it to land trade routes, which are weaker as it is. The Kanembu Infantary is uniquely suited for desert warfare without actually saying it, because it has an advantage against all open terrain, which doesn't limit it to the desert. Additionally, a lot of desert cities aren't terribly productive, and that's where the reduced cost comes in too. Very subtle. The Kanuri Cavalry I like too, because they're fast, powerful, and provide another economic advantage. It sort of adds into the UA in a more militant way.

Everything flows together well, and is good individually, but I'm left wondering how to play them. Do you know what I mean? They're obviously a trade based civ, but the UA isn't so powerful that it's all they are, like Portugal is. (Besides, the religious aspect proves it isn't all about trade.) Their UUs are both good and work with the UA, but they don't complete the UA in a way that the civ fully functions. What would make sense is if you added some sort of mechanic that makes units easier to buy, so that the cheapness or money making capabilities of the UUs are amplified by the UA, making Bornu a strong, cohesive military/trade civ. It doesn't have to be that, it could be something more to do with religion, but right now it feels like you have really good pieces that fit together sort of well, but don't mesh well enough to make the whole thing flow and be brilliant. I think what you have though I really good, and for the most part my suggestions may be unnecessary. Gilding the lily if you will. What do you think? There is a good chance I'm just missing something here.

No, that's good feedback. How about a discount of 15% or so to purchasing units in cities that have a source of fresh water and at least one international trade route? Lots of foreign mercenaries come along your trade routes and stop at your oases/lakes, so the increased competition forces them all to lower their prices.

That would be good. So, to be clear, the UA would be that cities with sources of fresh water generate 25% more income from land trade routes, have a 15% discount on purchasing units, and exert double religious pressure. That makes a lot of sense, and I like it. Great job! It's an authentic desert civ that doesn't depend on having deserts. (One of the things I hate about civs like the Inuits.)

Fictional civs for ASoIaF/AGoT (House Stark and Lannister), possible spoilers for the first book/season. Just musings that I didn't think were really deserving of a separate thread. UAs should be slightly overpowered to compensate for the lack of UUs and UBs.

I'm pretty sure Chris has got a separate topic for fictional civs somewhere

sukritact said:

Fictional civs for ASoIaF/AGoT (House Stark and Lannister), possible spoilers for the first book/season. Just musings that I didn't think were really deserving of a separate thread. UAs should be slightly overpowered to compensate for the lack of UUs and UBs.

House Lannister
Tywin Lannister
Rains of Castamere: Receive twice as much tribute from demands to city-states at half the influence cost. Receive gold each time something is first produced in the capital.

House Stark
Robb Stark
Winter is Coming: Each declaration of friendship gives you -10% combat strenght."We love the kings day" now grants 25% chance of getting stabbed in the heart.

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Fixed it for ya

Zixy said:

Fixed it for ya

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Hey! I spoiled it for a reason you know! Besides, that sounds much more like the Night's Watch under Jon Snow (please don't die...)

sukritact said:

House Frey
Walder Frey
The Red Wedding, may attempt to kill and usurp any civ with whom you have a DoF.

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Is this a Game of Thrones reference?

otaman1 said:

Is this a Game of Thrones reference?

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It was this week's episode. If you watch/read the series, don't read up more about it. HUGE SPOILER.

sukritact said:

It was this week's episode. If you watch/read the series, don't read up more about it. HUGE SPOILER.

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I know. Saw a reaction video on YouTube of the Red Wedding.

sukritact said:

Fictional civs for ASoIaF/AGoT (House Stark and Lannister), possible spoilers for the first book/season. Just musings that I didn't think were really deserving of a separate thread. UAs should be slightly overpowered to compensate for the lack of UUs and UBs.

Spoiler :

House Lannister
Tywin Lannister
Rains of Castamere: Receive twice as much tribute from demands to city-states at half the influence cost. Receive gold each time something is first produced in the capital.

House Stark
Robb Stark
Winter is Coming: Enemies receive attrition in Stark lands and you receive Great General points for units killed by attrition. Great Generals receive the "Direwolf" promotion, whose bonuses vary depending on the Great General.

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Pouakai said:

I'm pretty sure Chris has got a separate topic for fictional civs somewhere

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I does, in my sig. Take a look and I'll put them in the fantasy section, but House Frey seems like a joke - I don't watch Game of Thrones so I can't tell easily.

chrissifniotis said:

I does, in my sig. Take a look and I'll put them in the fantasy section, but House Frey seems like a joke - I don't watch Game of Thrones so I can't tell easily.

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The concept is canon (they actually did that, they murdered their allies at a wedding), but two problems; the UA is ridiculous gameplay-wise and House Frey is not a major house, so it's not a serious suggestion.

George R. R. Martin is not known for being kind to his protagonists, they tend to die horribly.

sukritact said:

The concept is canon (they actually did that, they murdered their allies at a wedding), but two problems; the UA is ridiculous gameplay-wise and House Frey is not a major house, so it's not a serious suggestion.

George R. R. Martin is not known for being kind to his protagonists, they tend to die horribly.

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Fair enough, I'll post the other two up then.