Éa, The Ageless and the Divine (phase 2, alpha)

Pazyryk said:

That's a high bar to raise to.

Keep in mind that v.17 doesn't even have fantasy units yet (well, it has 2) and is not compete (lacks victory conditions). Very much a WIP. If you have higher expectations you might want to wait for phase III of the mod's development. Probably I will have an initial III v.1 in April (not setting a date yet because there is much to do).

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You've certainly AIMED for that status, in terms of concept and complication.

You have the best game mechanic to represent civilization development I've ever seen in Civ... Where FFH2 had a "recovering from a disaster, already formed societies going" (and CiV has the dumbest... like America for whatever reason is better at building the internet from the second you start the game with them at 10,000 BC?).

Really looking forward to version 3.

Yeah I think unless this mod doesn't get finished, it probably will end up as something of a successor to FFH. I can't wait for phase 3!

Pazyryk said:

That's a high bar to raise to.

Keep in mind that v.17 doesn't even have fantasy units yet (well, it has 2) and is not compete (lacks victory conditions). Very much a WIP. If you have higher expectations you might want to wait for phase III of the mod's development. Probably I will have an initial III v.1 in April (not setting a date yet because there is much to do).

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Hey, 2 is better than nothing and I expect to see some great things from this mod in the future.

I can wait. You planning on working with FramedArchitect on the fantasy section of your mod? He has a nice mod going for himself already.

I'm probably the only one that cares, but the mod finally spells Aŋra correctly. Alikalix provided an entirely new bitmapped font set that adds the special character and many others.

For any linguists out there, the mod derives names and words mostly from Old Norse (somewhat anglicized but much less so than Tolkien did) and Old Gaelic. These are primarily but not strictly associated with Man and Sídhe, respectively. They look kind of similar with the accents but are very different in letter use. (I did convert Ðð and Þþ since most English speakers can't even guess their sound.)

However, a few things in the mod come from other places, including desert gods and the theistic religions, since the Norse and Celts didn't have either of these. You'll see some new pantheistic gods in phase 3 associated with the desert, Abgal, Nergal, Nesr and Wadd, derived from pre-Islamic Arabia or related sources. On the theistic side, Aŋra is the best representation (in our character set) for a word meaning destruction in Avesta, which is the original language of Zoroastrian scripture. Aŋra Mainiiu (=destructive spirit) was later transformed into Ahriman in Middle Persian. The Wiki has Azzandara as an alternate name for Ahura Mazda (~light/wisdom), Aramazd, Ohrmazd, Hurmuz, etc., although I haven't been able to track down the exact specific source for "Azzandara" yet. Hard to figure this out when 100 different web hits are all just copied from an older wiki page.

Perhaps I'm crazy to do this, but it's fun doing the research. The sound and look of the words give them a specific feel. For example, it seems to me that Nergal, Nesr and Wadd just have to be associated with the desert. It's also fun discovering the original source material used by Kael, Tolkien, Lovecraft, Howard and others.

Old Norse was also used by RiFE.

You trying to tell us something, Pazyryk?

General McUgly said:

Old Norse was also used by RiFE.

You trying to tell us something, Pazyryk?

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Just that we are all borrowing from the same sources. And perhaps a clue to a future phase if you know your Snorri Sturluson:

Pazyryk said:

Just that we are all borrowing from the same sources. And perhaps a clue to a future phase if you know your Snorri Sturluson:

Spoiler :

Ai
Álfr
Althjófr
Ánn
Ánarr
Andvari
Aurvangr
Austri
Bildr
Brúni
Billingr
Buri
Bifurr
Bafurr
Bömburr
Dáinn
Dólgthrasir
Dori
Draupnir
Dúfr
Durinn
Dvalinn
Eikinskjaldi
Fili
Finnr
Fjalarr
Frægr
Frár
Frosti
Fundinn
Gandálfr
Ginnarr
Glóinn
Hanarr
Haugspori
Hepti
Vili
Hlévangr
Hár
Hornbori
Jari
Kili
Litr
Lofars
Lóni
Mjöthvitnir
Náinn
Nali
Nár
Nípingr
Nithi
Nori
Northri
Nýi
Nýr
Nýráthr
Óinn
Ori
Ráthsvithr
Reginn
Skafithr
Skirfir
Suthri
Svíurr
Thekkr
Thjóthrörir
Thorinn
Thráinn
Thrár
Vestri
Veggr
Vindálfr
Virfir
Vitr
Yngvi

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Huh. Has Durinn been naming the dwarves again?

In other words, you're adding dwarves?

Had to spoil it for others did ya?

Not for a long time anyway. But I ran across ~80 names in the Poetic Edda. They are the Dvergar (and Gandálfr will be one of them as he should be).

So a race capable of getting underdark paths that isn't as limited in tech/options as the Hedenfol

Exactly.

The bottom branch will let you make Deep Mines, Deep Farms and Deep Roads in mountains. I think these will be made like camps and fishing boats are now, i.e., a city builds it and that claims and improves the plot at the same time. Mountains will be off-limits for "normal" border expansion (as are water plots now). Hope to develop this system with the Heldeofol first. The branch is also open to one single civilization that can be either Man or Sidhe: Úr.

Actually, I have Deep Mining now open to all races. It's Underdark Paths that is limited to the two races plus Úr. So any race can build Deep Mines. But the restricted techs will add yield to Deep Mines and are required for Deep Farms and Deep Roads.

I thought that it was always part of your plan to have one human tribe capable of developing deep mining. Is this still the plan or are you actually introducing a new race?

The Dvergar race is way down the road, most likely not phase 3.

The Úr civ is planned for phase 3, but it probably won't be ready for initial release. The idea behind Úr is that you have a race of Man or Sidhe that gives up the above world for the underworld. From the new Manual: "We forsake the sun, the meadow and the gentle breeze. We go into the depths of Éa, to our underdark home that we call Úr." Specific civ mechanics will be...different...

If you ran the very first prototype Éa mod back in April '12 (phase 1), you might remember that Wonders were built by Engineers on plots outside of cities. The reason that went away is that the graphics were messed up: wonders were stuck in "under construction" state. I still don't have the graphics for these yet, but I think we will have them soon. So expect all or most existing wonders to move back out of cities during phase III. So, for example, the Great Library will becomes a plot improvement buildable by Sages with a very large science yield, the exact yield determined by the builder's Scholarship Modifier when it was completed.

I probably won't have the regular line-up of wonders ready for phase III release, but there will be some other "tile wonders" as described below. The Towers and Temples below are important in the "war of features" -- Druids strengthening and spreading forests, jungles and marshes; the Fallen spreading breach and blight; and others possibly fighting either or both of these -- which is important for several of the victory conditions. Some spellcasters will probably never leave their Tower or Temple; others you can specialized as "battle mages" or "healers" and use to best effect at the scene of action.


Tile Wonders are built by Great People outside of cities. They can be built inside or outside of current borders, but must be within a city's 3-plot radius. If built outside current borders, completion will claim the plot for the city. Each wonder is unique in the world and can be built only once, although some wonders have multiple unique "instances". For example, there is one Festival for each kind of plot resource, one tower (max) for each thaumaturge, etc. Most map Wonders can be pillaged, temporarily removing yield bonuses and other effects, but then repaired by ordinary workers or slaves. However, they become ruins if the plot becomes unowned or owned by a civilization for which the wonder is inappropriate, such as the Temple of a pantheistic god in a theistic civilization. Ruins can be rebuilt into the wonder they once were by an appropriate Great Person if the plot becomes owned by an appropriate civilization. Ruins of specific map wonders can be located in the Wonders tab of the Wonders, Epics & Artifacts panel.

• Arcane Towers are built by Thaumaturges (but not Druids; see Temples below). Each Arcane Tower is unique and permanently associated with the particular Thaumaturge that built it, even taking the builder's name (for example, "Eöl's Tower"), although it is possible for another Thaumaturge to occupy an existing tower after the builder has passed on. Arcane Towers greatly amplify the strength of spells casts from them by adding to the caster's eight spell modifiers (Divination, Conjuration, Evocation, Transmutation, Abjuration, Necromancy, Enchantment and Illusion) increasing spell strength, duration and/or range. A Tower's spell modifiers are equal to the builder's modifiers, increasing whenever the builder levels-up. The Tower modifiers are maintained even after the caster's death. Thus, a Wizard in her own Tower (which she built) has spell modifiers that are always double what she would have outside of the Tower. However, a new occupant in an existing Tower gains the modifiers of the previous occupant, which are possibly much higher than their own. New spellcasters can either build a new Tower (25 turns) or occupy an old one (4 turns), but never both. A few specific spells can be cast only from within a Tower. For many other spells, casting from within a Tower allows the effects to be projected at great distances, for example, casting Blight on distant civilizations. In addition to spellcasting effects, Towers provide Mana directly to the civilization's total at a rate (per turn) equal to the average of the Tower's eight spell modifiers. Towers are not "worked" by citizens so provide no plot yield. Towers owned by non-arcane civilizations become ruins.
• Temples (Pantheistic) are built by Druids and there can be exactly one for each pantheistic god: one Temple of Fagus, one Temple of Epona, one Temple of Aveta, and so on. The nearby city must already follow the god's specific cult, the civilization must have already met the god, and most have additional plot requirements linked to the god's sphere of influence: riverside for river god, oasis-adjacent for springs god, desert for sun god, and so on. Temples act in many ways like Arcane Towers, allowing certain spells to be cast or cast at great distance, and adding to the caster's spell modifiers. Unlike Towers, however, a pantheistic Temple's eight spell modifiers are derived from the particular god (each has a unique set of spell modifiers) and scales with the civilization's relationship to that god. Also unlike Towers, Temples act as gathering places for local citizenry, thus they provide a workable plot with significant yield (unique for each god but typically in the range of +6 total yield) and pressure on the nearby city for the god's cult. Pantheistic Temples provide mana to the civilization's total exactly like Towers based on average of all eight modifiers. Pantheistic Temples owned by non-pantheistic civilizations become ruins.
• Temples (Theistic) are built by Priests, Paladins and their Fallen counterparts. There are seven Temples of Azzandara, built by Azzandara followers, and nine Temples of Ahriman, built by the Fallen. Each of the seven or nine is built in succession, enabled by the completion of the last (by any player) and possibly additional requirements. Each temple has unique yields and effects. Theistic Temples affect spell casting as do Arcane Towers and Pantheistic Temples. However, each Temple has a fixed set of spell modifiers, with each successive Temple in a series having substantially greater modifiers than the last. Temples owned by inappropriate civilizations (e.g., Temples of Ahriman in a non-Fallen civilization) become ruins.
• Festivals are built by Artists and there can be exactly one for each resource type: a Spice Festival, a Sugar Festival, a Horse Festival, an Iron Festival, and so on. The nearby city must have two improved plots with the resource, and the festival must be adjacent to one of these, or coastal for sea resources. Festivals provide happiness and plot yield dependent on the particular festival, typically +8 total yield mostly focused on culture. Festivals owned by Heldeofol civilizations become ruins.
• Others... Almost all world wonders will become tile wonders during phase III.

I like your plans for Wonders. Will battlefield sites be pre-requisites for any wonders; Triumphal Arch built by Engineer, Memorial built by Priest, Tower of Necromancy (Dundorchadas) built by Arcane unit? Another option for a battlefield wonder would be Memory Grove (like the trees storing ancestors memories in Soldier Song trilogy), providing culture and science, built by a Druid.
I'd also like some sort of Hoover/Three Gorges Dam wonder for civilisations pursuing the Doninator victory, which would provide hammers and convert all upstream river tiles into lakes (which count towards the Dominator victory).

Do you have an even spread of wonders for the different types of Great People or is there one or two in particular, where you're looking for ideas?

Hadn't though of using battlefields for anything other than undead spawning. It's a possibility.

Engineers build the lion's share of wonders, since this is really their main flavor. Other classes build a few specific wonders. But other classes craft tomes, epics and other things (not counting these as wonders since they don't have a fixed location).

We'll have to see where the "holes" are in terms of classes that don't have enough to do. One thing I'm lacking is things for Artists to do besides epics (& now festivals). I was thinking of making Bards as a subclass of Artist, where only bards can craft epics. But that would leave too little left for vanilla Artists. Alternatively, I've thought of renaming the whole class Bard. But that's kind of limiting because who will make a sculpture or a tapestry? (Of course, I could implement the whole BNW Great Works system. But I'm reluctant to do that because art trading and art appreciation and tourism just don't fit in this setting.)

Sounds awesome! Can't wait for phase 3 release

Pazyryk said:

Hadn't though of using battlefields for anything other than undead spawning. It's a possibility.

Engineers build the lion's share of wonders, since this is really their main flavor. Other classes build a few specific wonders. But other classes craft tomes, epics and other things (not counting these as wonders since they don't have a fixed location).

We'll have to see where the "holes" are in terms of classes that don't have enough to do. One thing I'm lacking is things for Artists to do besides epics (& now festivals). I was thinking of making Bards as a subclass of Artist, where only bards can craft epics. But that would leave too little left for vanilla Artists. Alternatively, I've thought of renaming the whole class Bard. But that's kind of limiting because who will make a sculpture or a tapestry? (Of course, I could implement the whole BNW Great Works system. But I'm reluctant to do that because art trading and art appreciation and tourism just don't fit in this setting.)

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Artists > Craftsmen/Artisans? That way their creations could include artifacts, weapons, epics, etc.

I know! How about a system where an artist creates a random great item using the technology and resources available to your civ ... ok fine I will admit I am ripping this strait from Dwarf Fortress, but basicly what I'm really trying to say here, lame jokes disguised as suggestions aside, is that Dwarf Fortress implements a good system for great items made by artisans, so it can be done; perhaps looking at what the Toady one did might help you to think of a solution in this context?

*edit*

Sorry I just want to make this completely unambiguous; I'm not saying "do what dwarf fortress does", I'm saying "try thinking about it ... from another angle? um..". Well something like that anyway. I would like to see artists in who do epic level weapons and armour, strange and fantastic contraptions and similar. Maybe have a "complete Magnum Opus" action which is a use once action for artists where they create a really powerful ... something. I mean it could be anything from a legendary holy sword of fire to a chair made from the still flowing blood of the enemies of Ahriman. The effectiveness is based on the artisan's level, the materials and the technology available and what was made; for example the sword could require say Iron working, but be better with steel, and give the unit that holds it a promotion with increased effectivness against non-Azzandara units and a bigger one against undead and similar, and an item token on death, while the chair could be used in the capital (or I guess maybe another city) to give culture and mana while the civ controlling the city follows Ahriman, and require you to be at war or maybe the magnum opus has to be started on a recent battlefield? The same for bone.

In both these cases, really the artisan isn't so good as a basic GP, but does stuff which infringes on other classes, I think; if not in their actual mechanics then at least in their sphere of influence?

Artisan is already the name for the specialist that contributes to the Artist GP class appearance.

I think ultimately we will have class Artist with Bard as a subclass. Bards are just Artists with the added ability to craft Epics.

Like other subclasses, Bard is just a special case of the class that appears (in place of some other subclass or vanilla class) depending on special civ circumstances. In this case, the special circumstance is that the civilization either has adopted Barding (in the Tradition branch after Folklore) or knows the Music tech.

Also, the specific GP appearing when you adopt a policy within the Tradition branch depends on which one you adopt: Folkart (vanilla Artist), Folklore (Bard), Scholastisicm (Sage).

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On artifacts:

Artifacts are things that can be carried around, unlike Wonders (too big to carry) and Epics (don't have a location). We already have Tomes (written by Sages) as one kind of Artifact.

Weapon artifacts will generally be crafted by Engineers. The magical vs non-magical will sort out by tech prereq. So you can have a sword with Steel prereq and another with Transmutation prereq. Both would be made by an Engineer although the latter is more overtly "magical". These should be unique named objects: "The Sword of Bling", etc. (Obviously, I'm lacking good names and ideas for these right now.) Maybe we need 5 or so of these.

Artists should be crafting other things that are more ... well ... arty, like sculptures or tapestries. As above, these could be more or less "magical" depending mostly on tech prereq. These should also be unique named objects. We need at least 7 so that vanilla Artists have plenty to do.

I mostly need names to inspire me for the weapon and art artifacts. These can play off base Civ5 or Éa-specific mechanisms. So you could have a sword that boosts nearby unit morale, or one that boosts the wielder's strength depending on the strongest nearby undead, etc...