SGOTM 22 - Anti-TSR

AlanH

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Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 22 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You can find the Game Details in the first posts of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, they will be posted in that thread.

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck with the game, and - Have Fun! :)
 
As we discussed by pm, let's try to stick to the original SG-Guidelines listed below.

Ettiquette and Behaviour.
1. Ask to be skipped, or play your turns on time.
6. When it is your turn to play, it is normal to pick the game up within 24 hours of the new save being made available, and to post a new save within 48 hours of that (so 72 hours in total).
7. Only post a "got it" message once you have downloaded the save and actually opened it in the game.

Aside from winning Gold, of course, the idea is to have fun, friendship, and minimize our time investment in the game. Post a PPP or any questions you have if you want feedback. This is not to artificially limit discussion, just to free up anyone who wants to just play on. Let's be relaxed about it.

Please, no complaints about how someone played their turnset. Just play whatever you get when it's your turnset. Treat it as an adventure. :scan:


If you want me to add anything to this, chime in.

.
 
Mitchum doesn't want to be the Captain, so I will volunteer, unless someone else wants to grab it. All the same to me. I've never been Captain, so I can screw it up as well as anyone, I imagine. :p

I suggest we pick some semblance of a strategy and stick to it, the point being to have some way to be on the same page with each other. I suspect there are several fine strategies that will all yield roughly the same result as long as we stick to it. If anyone has a specific strategy in mind, describe it. If anyone feels really strongly about one, please pipe up. That's probably the one we should play.

Roster
Mitchum T0-T12, we SIP, tech AH, building wkr, meet all AI scouts, but see no AI culture, find horses nearby, stone, gems, no great food sites, lots of unowned tiles. AIs producing lots of food and hammers. All AIs start with Masonry.
da_Vinci T12 to T19 (several posts), teching Masonry, find Carthage (w/spear+archer) to north, on grass marble hill. Darius completes Oracle. No 2nd cities yet.
LowtherCastle Plays to T42 to complete the Great Wall. NWar dies, LC is first team member to walk the plank. Bon vojage!
WastinTime plays to T47 and then to T66. Darius settles 2nd city finally. We settle HorseCity. Brennus, Sal, and Zara have 3 cities. We complete Writing, start Alphabet. T51 OBs with all but Darius. Darius settles 3rd city. Rome has 3 bldgs, 6 defenders, pop6, we settle and gift DaGift to Darius. Darius OBs on T61.
Pollina Plays to T75, and then to T84, we settle FishCity, tech Alpha, Hindu spread to FC, gain Woodie II warror, Darius has Sailing w/o a trade network to us!? Hindu spreads to Rome!!! We revolt to Hinduism on T77, trade for furs on T78 with Brennus, we lose our first 2 spies. Tech Mysticism. Confucianism spreads to HC.
LowtherCastle Plays from T84-94, T95-98, T98-105. We lose 3 more spies. Fail to spread any culture, fail to sabotage the monument, manage to steal Monarchy by Divine Intervention, after teching Meditation and Priesthood. Steal also Bronzeworking, Iron Working, and Sailing. Settle Bovino. Discover iron in Antarctica, scramble to set up a settler and get the Rome prereqs. All AIs but Darius are now teching like bats out of hell. Wonders are falling left and right.
WastinTime plays...

turnset reports: updated by Pollina (thanks :goodjob:)

WT
T105 we decided to not wait to steal Aes and just go full speed to Music to get our 7 wonders.
105-107 (IronCity settled)
107-112 (Mono stolen), Teched Aes
113-117 (DoW Darius for workers, DoP for gold)
117-120 (HBR, capture and insta-liberate Nubian)
121-125 (DoW Sal, Nubian (gift to Darius), Anjar, worker steals, Parthenon)

Pollina
T125-130 (Archery, Teched Music & GArtist, barb galley)
t130-136 (another barb galley, Paya)
t137-140 (Glib, GSpy, DoW Saladin, Mecca fail)

LC
140-146 (flip Darius to Hindu for OB, Zeus, Feudalism)

WT's magical turnset

LC
146-155 (Damascus, culture bomb, MC, Machinery, Engineering, Zara attacks)
155-160 (DoP with Zara for 585g, Mecca attack, Civil Service)
160-164 (GA#1, Bureau, GA, Guilds, Philo)
164-167 (Zara beats us to Nationalism, IronCity to Brennus, Medina attack

----------------------

WT
T167-170 trade for Stone, prepare for Zara war
T170-175 Great Artist, AWat, DoW Zara, capture Lalibela
T175-177 Gilga wins Lib race (takes MT)
T177-178 Capture Aksum, Advanced Micro tricks with WT
T178-181 Golden Age, Calendar, Banking
T182-185 Gondar, raze Yeha
T186-188 Give away Medina, settle ZaGift

ZPV
T188-190 Nationalism, Military Tradition, Gunpowder
T190-193 raze ZaGift & Debre, capture Addis, DoW Gilga
T193-195 Gilga war
T195-199 Gilga war, HaGift settled, Chemistry, Compass, Great Prophet
T199-203 Gilga war, capture Nibru, trade mission, Brennus about to get Rifling
T203-204 DoW Brennus, kill stack
T204-207 Brennus war, Military Science
T207-209 Brennus war, Brennus gets Rifling

Pollina
T209-210 Steel, Great Scientist
T210-215 Optics, Eliminate Zara, DoW Hanni
T215-218 Hanni war, DoW Brennus
T218-220 Cannons are OP
T220-222 DoW Darius
T222-224 Eliminate Hanni

ZPV
T224-228 Raze, raze, raze
T228-231 Kill, kill, kill


Seraiel AWOL.
Mitchum Pained leave of absence.
da_Vinci AWOL.

.
 
Your goals in this scenario:
  • Never change or lose your capital.
  • Build 7 Wonders of the World in your capital.
  • Win the game by space or conquest.
Rome
# of cities population defenders buildings
1 2 2 1
2 4 4 2
3 6 6 3
4 8 8 4
5 10 10 5
6 12 12 6
7 14 14 7
8 16 16 8
9 18 18 9
10 20 20 10
11 22 22 11
12 24 24 12
Palace and academy count as buildings!

A few buildings are excluded and don't count, namely:
-Barracks
-Bomb Shelters
-Bunker
-Castle
-Drydock
-Stable
-Walls

Rome
Game Options
Ancient Era Start
Normal Speed
No Vassals
No Goody Huts
No Events
Raging Barbarians
Space or Conquest victory only!!! How does this change AI behavior???

Map size Standard
6 Opponents Note: Changed from 5 to 6 !!!
Map: Modified Pangaea
Difficulty: Monarch

AIs start with [...] + Priesthood
We start with Fishing + Mining+ Hunting + 4 warriors

Julius Caesar
Imperialistic:
Great General emergence increased 100 percent.
50% faster production of Settlers.​
Organized:
Civic upkeep reduced 50 percent.
Double production speed of Lighthouse, Factory, and Courthouse.​

Starting screenshot:
Spoiler :
sgotm22large.jpg
 
Possible opening strategy
Spoiler :

1. Conquest
2. Beeline: AH-Masonry
3. Settle in place
4. Build: wkr-GW(X turns to completion?)-settler; (monitor barb threat, complete GW as needed)
5. Improvements: Pigs-4mines
6. Exploration: during AH, see if map crowded with AIs or not, if not, build GW; explore for resources, city sites
7. Farm XP for woodie II; fogbust city 2 site.

Possible continuation:
Tech: Writing
Build: library for GS for academy

==========================================
Key posts
Raging barb spawn numbers. Barb galleys spawn numbers
Perspective wonders
Standard Pangaea 64x40
WT: Core cities idea
AI Build Wonders Propensity
Pollina test save
Initial AI build, growth numbers
Demo clues, more, T12 Guess AI techs, AI starting land count + other data, T12 Darius, AI starting units guess, T12 COmprehensive AI production guestimate, Production Summary Elaboration,
When AIs will CF
Literature Wonder Solution
Pollina's summmary test results for GW
Non-GW strategies
Pollina's T12-T41 GW micro
Some strategy ideas
Determining barb popoulation from religion screen
Calculating AI City Hammer Production
LC warrior sentry plan
dV PPP, Revised
WT PPP for T42-47
WT discovers an exploit
WT T47 PPP Darft #1
Pollina: code for city flipping
Pollina ep costs for some T91 techs, LC ep cost variations, More tech stealing data, Techs we want to steal asap, DanF ep cost formula explained
Testing on Gems CIty gifting and re-capturing
Pollina's sheet for T47 MM Plan for Rome and HC, LC variant of T47 MM Plan for Rome and HC
DariusGift SPread culture mission idea
WT PPP T47 Final version
Pollina PPP T66, final version
Spy mission success odds
LC PPP T84-94, PPP T95-98, "PPP" T98-105
WT's Wonder Plan for Parthenon, Great Library

key posts continued: (updated by Pollina, thanks :goodjob:)

WT PPP 107-112
revolt turns formula
culture limit for city razing
WT PPP 113-122
WT’s Anjar plan
WT PPP 120-125
LC’s updated wonder plan
Pollina Mini-PPP
gold limit for begs
power requirement for demands
LC PPP
LC has a CRAZY idea
WT‘s Nationalism idea
LC PPP
WT PPP
LC End Game strategy

Other links:

How to keep AI from finishing a wonder they are about to finish.
PPP t170-177
Empire overview t177
Screenshots t178
PPP WT
PPP WT
PPP ZPV. Empty galleys defend first!
How to deal with an AI that is about to get Rifling
War plan Gilga/Brennus
More war plans
Screenshots t209
updated PPP t209
Endgame war plan
Screenshots t224
Clean up plan
Final PPP


.
 
Welcome to SGOTM#22

I'm glad we finally started this game! This scenario has a lower AI-level, but don't be over confident as it won't be easy! There's no fun without threat in Civ, at least that's what I think. So don't be discouraged if you bump your head: It's meant to happen.

As far as I know most admins and mapmakers before me have been quite silent during the game. But I like to stay in touch with the players. I read the threads and I might comment from time to time. If you want to be left alone, just tell me. It's your thread and if you don't want any visitors that's entirely your choice.

It would be nice if you somehow mark the posts (turn reports) in which you got new cities, so that we/I can check if you stick to the rules. And we all love to see screenshots all the time.

OK, that's all. Have fun and good luck with your game!
For the glory of Rome!
 
I don't think I have ever won a civ game by conquest, so this will be new to me. How many cities do we think we end up with in a conquest game?

Is there any way that space could be faster than conquest? I can't imagine that.

Need 7 wonders in Rome by the end, any thoughts on which ones and when? Wonders are buildings, but expensive.

With the troop and pop requirements, running H rule seems like a necessity. Or can we get away with representation? If H rule is required, then can mids be skipped?

Just my random thoughts for now.

dV
 
Checking in. Haven't fully read the game details and pre game Q&A thread yet. :blush: I'll try to get that done tomorrow and post my comments/thoughts.

Important team rule: All wagers will be paid in sammiches!! :D
 
Possible opening strategy

1. Conquest
2. Beeline: AH-Masonry
3. Settle in place
4. Build: wkr-GW(X turns to completion?)-settler; (monitor barb threat, complete GW as needed)
5. Improvements: Pigs-4mines
6. Exploration: during AH, see if map crowded with AIs or not, if not, build GW; explore for resources, city sites
7. Farm XP for woodie II; fogbust city 2 site.

Possible continuation:
Tech: Writing
Build: library for GS for academy

Sounds reasonable, but I'd be very disappointed in the mapmaker, if he gave us easy access to GW.

rules said:
All your actions should be dictated by the main goal of keeping Rome well and protected. Therefore you may only found a city (or keep one you got from another nation) if:
Can we gift away cities we capture, or do we have to raze them, when we don't have enough pop/units/buildings in Rome to keep them?
 
Your goals in this scenario:
  • Never change or lose your capital.
  • Build 7 Wonders of the World in your capital.
  • Win the game by space or conquest.
Rome
# of cities population defenders buildings
1 2 2 1
2 4 4 2
3 6 6 3
4 8 8 4
5 10 10 5
6 12 12 6
7 14 14 7
8 16 16 8
9 18 18 9
10 20 20 10
11 22 22 11
12 24 24 12
Palace and academy count as buildings!
[/INDENT]

I see the least problems in the buildings or the population, getting enough troops may be a challenge though, as they may not be Warriors past Bronzeworking, and I don't think we can have more than 10 cities in the end. We cannot let our capital grow freely, like we all do in the games we usually play, we'd be forced to build troops only and we couldn't even use them to attack others because of those mechanics. 6 defenders at size 3 already is horendous, and we even need 8 at size 4, which is the minimum size for 2-pop-whips, which we'll definitely want, because on this low difficulty, it'd be stupid not to go for a Horse Archer Rush and conquer one or two capitals of the AIs, they're gonna be better than the cities we will be able to settle and we'll even get them cheaper. Building 8 Axes will slow us down, and we need BW for whipping, so no way around it.

I didn't have time to look at the starting save yet, so no clear suggestions from me, just very vague for today. Station some Warriors in the capital, build 2 Settlers as the smallest size that'd reasonable (I don't know how many resources we have, if 3, then Settlers at 3, if 2 or less, then Settlers at 2) . Use the other Workers for Worker stealing, we can probably get peace with the AIs again easily (never played Monarch, but below Deity getting peace is usually always possible, I remember it being possible on Immortal) . Optimal number of cities for a Horse-Archer rush usually is 3, but that's on Deity, on Monarch we can probably rush earlier with less troops which will make 2 cities optimal. Probably 1 would be optimal, but I don't think that BSPollux was so nice to let us start with Horses.

Can we agree on a 2-city Horse Archer rush, or does anybody persist to beeline Praets? Or maybe even a Chariot-rush for the first target and then follow up with HAs for the 2nd? Sounds even better to me.

I'm no great fan of building the GW, even if it would count towards our Wonders and is the cheapest Wonder we can get. If we can get it late, great, but for a Barb-threat on Monarch? When will that happen? And with what will the barbs attack, Warriors? I think we can definitely rush the 1st target before that, and handling a few Barb-Warriors should be no problem with 1-2 extra Chariots. Imo, we should go AH and then probably TW -> BW. Writing is imo also ok, but a GS has not great priority for me, as Conquest will definitely be the faster victory option, and I don't think AIs will ever reach something HAs, Praets and Catapults could handle. Maybe we'll need Trebs at some time, though I doubt it somehow. I don't even think, that we should go Buro in this scenario, who knows if we'll ever get a Religion to run Theo, with lowly Monarch-AIs being incapable of producing Missionaries in an adequate time. To me, it currently seems, that Vassalage will be the much better option. Too bad, we cannot Oracle it, because BSPollux gave Priesthood to the AIs.

Sry for this long, not really well written post, I currently lack time and just wanted to write down my thoughts. I think what I wrote is true and important, even if it's formulated badly.
 
Sounds reasonable, but I'd be very disappointed in the mapmaker, if he gave us easy access to GW.


Can we gift away cities we capture, or do we have to raze them, when we don't have enough pop/units/buildings in Rome to keep them?
I am assuming that the keep them issue has to do with keep or raze at the time of capture, and not that on every turn you have to have the required pop and defenders for the city count. Although, I could be wrong (but having to meet the requirement on every turn, not just on growth turns would be a huge enforcement issue).

Since BSP is interested in reports or screenshots of the growth turns, it suggests that the criteria only apply at those times. I am sure BSP will show up here with an answer shortly ... ;)

As someone who has usually played more as a builder, I can see that I should be last in the rotation, so I can get the feel of the early rush approach from everyone else before I play.

dV
 
You need to fullfill the requirements only when you get the city. This means you can move out troops or shrink pop later on. And it means you can't take the city and gift it away if you are not fullfilling the requirements.
 
Sounds reasonable, but I'd be very disappointed in the mapmaker, if he gave us easy access to GW.
GW for 150 raw hammers is significant trade-off with earlier REX (monument, granary, etc.). Plus, the Great Spy points pollute the gene population. I would be disappointed if the mapmaker didn't give us a chance for the GW.
 
@Seraiel
No save yet. I've added the starting screenshot above.

We see 1 early food and 0 commerce resource tiles. My basic thinking tries to optimize:
  • Hammer-rich capital: garrisons, +50% settlers, buildings, 7 world wonders, other units.
  • SIP has 4 mines pre-BW !!! (non-trivial)
  • Capital population: slow re-growth makes early whipping dubious, granary slows REX, BW forces archer garrisons which slows REX
  • Raging barbs: warriors and archers will enter our cities when all players have settled 10 total cities worldwide :eek:
  • Limited number of cities = limited absolute research potential = Great Merchants more powerful in this scenario
  • Health + happies: We need lots.
  • Commerce: pigs + 2 mines = +3cpt
  • Hammers: pigs + 4 mines = 13 hpt = 21 settler-hammmers per turn.
  • REX: we could settle/capture our core X cities {X = 2,3,4,5,6,7,?} with only X warriors + X nascent war machine garrisons
  • Coastal REX: We need a coastal, seafood city asap for coastal exploration and health resources.
The Great Wall allows us to comfortably REX, but first we tech AH to see if horses and AIs in vicinity. We grow and build mines while building the GW, which gives us capital population for city #2 and hammers production for fast settler #2. And so on... Without doing any calculations, I assume this is the fastest REX anyway under the circumstances.

~~~

Another capital option is to explore the nearby coast and hope for some juicy seafood. We have Fishing. That also enables GLH and colossus in our capital, which also gives us GMs for gold. Probably a powerful option. Problem is, how many hammers? Pigs-2S1W has at least 3 mines, so it might be okay but only 1 mine pre-BW.

.
 
Note that we have 6 AI opponents. It was originally listed only as 5. That means raging barbs will enter our cities when there are 10 worldwide cities. In other words, the 7 starting cities plus 3 new cities.

Corrected as per Pollina. All the more reason to build the Great Wall...
 
You need to fullfill the requirements only when you get the city. This means you can move out troops or shrink pop later on. And it means you can't take the city and gift it away if you are not fullfilling the requirements.
Thanks for clarifying.

  • Limited number of cities = limited absolute research potential = Great Merchants more powerful in this scenario
I'm not sure I get that point. I would have assumed that GMerchants are less valuable for smaller empires (less maintenance, higher research slider). What am I missing?

Note that we have 6 AI opponents. It was originally listed only as 5. That means raging barbs will enter our cities when there are 11 worldwide cities. In other words, the 7 starting cities plus 4 new cities.
Quick correction:
if (getNumCivCities() < ((countCivPlayersAlive() * 3) / 2) && !isOption(GAMEOPTION_ONE_CITY_CHALLENGE))
{
bAnimals = true;
}
Human barbs won't spawn (and enter our borders) as long as there are less than (7*3)/2=10.5 cities.
 
I'm not sure I get that point. I would have assumed that GMerchants are less valuable for smaller empires (less maintenance, higher research slider). What am I missing?
You're right about less maintenance, of course, at least assuming the cities aren't too far apart, but they might be. My point was strictly that we want 100% slider all the time, until we arrive at our research goal (whatever that might be, we don't know yet, but if this game is CConquest or Space, it stands to reason there will be a fair amount of research required).
 
You need to fullfill the requirements only when you get the city. This means you can move out troops or shrink pop later on. And it means you can't take the city and gift it away if you are not fullfilling the requirements.
Hmm, at the risk of getting too lawyer about this, if you can't get and gift without meeting the requirements, does that mean we can't take and raze it instantly without meeting the requirements?

I'd hope that razing is requirement independent. :mischief:

(Now wait for BSP, the NSA of CFC, to surveil our thread ... )

dV
 
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